[.Hack]

Well the title is pretty self-explanitory. Today there were a group of kids who started this up in one of my classes today. We all surprisingly stayed civilized (which is a great feat for high schoolers). Anyways, I think it's a choice. There was a gay man at my uncle's church a few years back. The whole reason he started to go was to just piss off the church and it's members (this church had some rather conservative views on homosexuality). Eventually this got to him, and the man started to go to nightly bible studies. After about a year or so, he started to talk to the church's pastor. Eventually this man gave a testimony to the whole church about how he had changed from the first day he'd come into the church and told them how he realized that he actually wasn't gay, and that he chose to be... To make a longer story short, he married a woman a year later and now have some kids and are happily married.

Friends of mine also have gay relatives, who have I've met, and we've had this conversation... the majority of them say they chose to be gay. This is why I personally think that homosexuality is a choice.

The problem I have is when people bring their views in and shove it down everyone else's throat... Please don't do that ya'll. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong either, I'm open to all opinions here people. My statements above are my justifications for my opinion. Be civilized, I don't want this thread locked due to rude comments. Anyway, I was just interested in what most of you feel on this issue, today's little debate in class was very interesting and everyone made some good points. So yeah, what do ya'll think?

[johnq]

I think "choice" here is merely a reflection of the individual's ability (or inability) to "come out" to be the person they truly are, in societies and cultures with varying degrees of acceptance (or complete lack thereof).

I think one "becomes aware" more than "chooses". But I'm straight, so that's just been my "outside" interpretation.

[.Hack]

Good point! Again, I could very well be wrong, because all of the above is an outside interpretation as well, since I'm straight too. But you made a really good point, interesting.

[BuonRotto]

Both to some extent. Depends on the individual. I think nearly all people who are self-declared homosexuals are genetically predisposed with few rare exceptions, but many who are genetically predisposed to homosexuality choose not to adopt or accept this trait for one reason or another.

[Wrao]

I think there are those that choose 'homosexuality', just as there are those who choose any number of weird sexual fetishes out there...I would call them sexual deviants, or bi-sexuals, because they are not REALLY homosexual, but they 'choose' to be. For the most part though, I don't think it's really a choice. I can't hardly believe anyone would want to CHOOSE a life of being treated like shit by nearly everyone they meet. I used to think it was more choice based until I met some more homosexuals. I can't understand how anyone would make it their choice to be ostracized by everyone they know, cast out of their family, looked down upon by greater society...etc. I have never met a homosexual who said they CHOSE it. Often it's the case where, a gay person will 'choose' to be outwardly gay, as opposed to hiding it from the world, but that doesn't change who they are ya know?

When you think about it, you never 'chose' to be heterosexual, it's just something you know, if I asked you to 'choose' to be homosexual, you'd say "I couldn't do that" well, why couldn't you? ya know? because you're heterosexual, you know you are, you know that you can't be anything else.

*Shrug*

[Luca]

I agree with johnq here. Look at how much our society encourages growing children to be straight and not gay. There doesn't seem to be any logic behind a decision to be homosexual. It certainly doesn't seem to be something that is taught by your upbringing.

In some sense, like johnq says, homosexuality is a choice. I know someone through my parents who is 50 years old and has never married or had a serious, long term relationship with a man or a woman. Is he asexual, not attracted to either sex? I guess it's a remote possibility, but it's also possible that he's simply not willing or ready to make the choice to become a homosexual, and simply isn't attracted enough to women to be heterosexual either. Despite all that, he has a very active social life and always seems to have fun with his many friends.

In fact, homosexuality could almost be put in the same category as many sexual fetishes. Do people really "choose" to have a foot fetish or an S&M fetish? Or do they just discover, somehow, that it really turns them on to be whipped? Do people develop these fetishes because of how they're raised, or were they born with them? It's very confusing and there don't seem to be any good, solid answers.

EDIT: Looks like Wrao said the same thing as me but much faster! Curses!

Good points Wrao!

[The Return of the 'nut]

it is definitely genetic. there are physical characteristics homosexuals tend to have. i dont know the science behind it all, but its fairly clear I think.

I do think some people choose to be homosexual for a variety of reasons, but i think "true homosexuals" were genetically programmed that way or whatever.

[alcimedes]

i'd guess a combination of nature/nurture, or genetics and choice. most things in life are. at least, that's what the U of MN twins study found.

[flail]

I don't think homosexuals choose to be gay, I think they choose not to be straight..
Ummm.. To say either its totally nature or totally nurture, I think is naive. I mean what if you found out you have the genetically predispositioned to become a complete alcoholic. It doesn't make it certain, you just have a greater tendency towards it. So it's both.. I think.

[.Hack]

Don't call people ignorant... it's things like that which can piss people off quickly, especially on touchy issues like these... so please, just be careful of how you word things ya'll.

[Wrao]

Eh, ignorant isn't really an insult you know. It just means you don't know. That said, I think the word he was looking for was naive or maybe short-sighted.

[.Hack]

Well he did exactly what I asked ya'll not to do... say that someone else is wrong. Even if one of ya'll think the other is wrong, just don't say it, because it'll just get ugly. Chances are that none of you will walk away with a different opinion than you did when I started this topic... that's all I'm saying.

[alcimedes]

Originally Posted by .Hack Chances are that none of you will walk away with a different opinion than you did when I started this topic...

of course, that begs the question as to why bother with the thread at all......

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by alcimedes of course, that begs the question as to why bother with the thread at all......

I love this place. hahaha

[flail]

Things are amost never black and white. I think that applies to every issue. I completely agree with you .Hack...

I'm just amazed that some people claim to have it all figured out, in as something complex as human pychology and and societal influences on sexualty.
I don't have it completely figured out, and probably never will.

[torifile]

What's your favorite color? Mine's probably blue.

Can I choose to like blue more than green? I could probably say my favorite color is green but, down deep, my favorite color would still be blue.

You can't really choose what you're attracted to. You just are. Through peer pressure, ostracism, guilting, etc., you can be "convinced" that you like another color. But you don't.

Homosexuality is no more a choice than your favorite color is a choice.

[.Hack]

Originally Posted by alcimedes of course, that begs the question as to why bother with the thread at all......

I'm just interested in what ya'll think.

[flail]

tori: That makes sense, and I respect your opinion. Likes and dislikes are one thing... Those are preferences...

Say you have a preference of fruits.. there's pears, grapefruit, watermelon, canteloupe... Lots of different kinds. One can be your favorite and nothing can change that, Fine.

I think homosexuality is like sticking that fruit up your ass, not just as another fruit.

Just depends on your perspective

[Bryson]

I recall having a similar conversation in the AN chatroom a while back.

I can why, when the human race was not dominant, that social taboos against homosexuality were created. Nowadays, with the human population out of control, I can't see that we have any evolutionary imperative as a species to continue those taboos.

However, it is interesting that Homosexuality develops at all. It can't be genetic because homosexuals don't pass on their genetic material. (By definition!) So it must be either random chance, or a result of upbringing. It seems to be too common for random chance to be involved, so upbringing it is then...

If Richard Dawkins is right, and we just exist to pass on the "Selfish Gene," what is going on with Homosexuality?

Just a thought or two...

[alcimedes]

if it were genetic, it could just be a recessive trait across a variety of chromosomes. the right combiation would yeild homosexuality, otherwise it's latent.

[johnq]

Any human can eroticize anything or anybody and develop a preference (or deeper, a fetish) apart from that person's primary self-defined (or externally imposed) sexual identity.

Some people are strict, be they heterosexual or homosexual, and don't deviate from their primary preferences, others are more experimental, hence bisexuality, cross-dressing, TV/TS and other variations.

We can't lump it all together, or put one word like "choice" or "genetics" or "society" on "the cause".

Some things I think are safe to say:
- Sex and love feel good.
- People each have their own natural attractions.
- People can develop attractions upon experimentation and access to wider cultures and groups and activities (or they might retreat or deny these and further solidify their initial identity for better or worse).
- People can fantasize far beyond what they would do in real life, and still remain true (usually) to their primary sexual identity.

Again, nothing I say is an "answer".

[johnq]

Anyway, I've always said this regarding the question:

Homosexuals* are in a tough spot as far as the question of whether homosexuality is genetic, hormonal, environmental, free choice etc. etc.

If it is genetic (suppose) then there will be the inevitable prenatal genetic screening for "it", increased abortions of "gay" fetuses (which would make the whole Pro-Life movement exceedingly interesting to follow) and maybe even secret testing and screening out for things like employment or military service. (Where it would end is anyone's guess).

If (say) it is environmental/cultural/learned/chosen then that will just lead to all kinds of "interventions", "reprogramming" or other pseudo-science or religious crap to "turn the gays around".

If it's hormonal (as some say) then there will be no end to the so-called cure-alls and "treatments" etc.

So, for the sake of GLBTect's. I'm not sure what to hope for as to the "cause".

I think "Because" suffices.

* (Whatever, lesbians etc. too...i.e. non-heteorsexuals)

[thegelding]

bi-sexuality is a choice

hetro or homo is not


that said, there is too little love in this world today as it is, why would i judge someone by who they love? i would much rather judge somebody that didn't love at all than judge somebody who does love, but doesn't love the "right" person...

and that being said, why is it that two girls kissing on the street is so much sexier than two men??

g

[torifile]

Likes and dislikes are not actually just preferences. We are predisposed to like certain things. No one would argue that a taste for sugar isn't genetic. Fruit that doesn't have enough fructose (an unripe banana) is not appealing at all. But a ripe one is.

I hate cantaloupe with a passion. I can't stand the taste of it. I can't stand the smell of it. If it's been touching a piece of pineapple, I can't even eat the pineapple (a fruit I normally LOVE). No one could convince me that my dislike for cantaloupe is just a preference. That would imply I could learn to like cantaloupe. Not. Gonna. Happen.

Some people are "wired" to like the same sex. Others aren't.

[scratt]

Originally Posted by torifile Fruit that doesn't have enough fructose (an unripe banana) is not appealing at all. But a ripe one is.

Hmm.. Interesting.

Is that a double-entendre??!?!?!

[scratt]

Originally Posted by thegelding and that being said, why is it that two girls kissing on the street is so much sexier than two men??

Less facial hair?

[torifile]

Originally Posted by scratt Hmm.. Interesting. Is that a double-entendre??!?!?!

I thought that someone would comment on my banana example. It just seemed appropriate given the discussion.

[Koodari]

Scientific research and evidence, and the accounts I have read, point to that homosexuality is very much genetic. It also shows up as physical differences, some region in the brain of most gay men resembles that of a woman rather than that of a straight man.

I suppose it isn't an on/off thing and bisexuals are not necessarily "dysfunctional heteros" or "dysfunctional homos" but could have been dealt a genetic hand that is in between.

Also, humans are mentally very adaptable and so many individuals can substitute the "wrong sex" for the one they would really prefer. For instance, gay people who go into religion, "turn" into straight, and if they lose their religion they revert to the original behavior. Or straight people who go into prison and don't have any preferred partners available, have sex with each other, and totally revert to the sex they prefer after there is a choice.

[scratt]

Originally Posted by Koodari For instance, gay people who go into religion, "turn" into straight, and if they lose their religion they revert to the original behavior.

I always thought it was the other way around... Or is it that gay men going into religion become pedophiles? I am confused.

Originally Posted by Koodari Or straight people who go into prison and don't have any preferred partners available, have sex with each other, and totally revert to the sex they prefer after there is a choice.

AWARD FOR THE BEST SWEEPING GENERALISATION OF THE DAY!

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by thegelding and that being said, why is it that two girls kissing on the street is so much sexier than two men??

(from a straight man viewpoint)

Girls are sexy. Kissing is a sexy activity among many other kinds of sexy activities. Some level of our brain also knows there is a possibility either or both are also interested in men.

Gay men are cool for a different reason. It's my lifelong dream to convince every other male on the planet to be gay and remain the only straight one So now you know what I'm going to use those orbital mind control lasers for.. (oops)

scratt, I would think it's clear the latter piece you quoted refers to the behavior of some people, not all. It was not a generalization.

Linking gays and pedophilia isn't exactly fair either.