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View Full Version : ok, Apple is getting ridiculous....(new iPod findings)


matt
2004-07-20, 21:27
I was just reading (from apple.com) about the new iPods. One I think it is ridiculous that the new software upgrades can't be incorporated into my 3rd generation iPod. But I understand then I would never consider upgrading.

But the real kicker is my 3G iPod dock does not work with the new 4G iPods!! You are telling me because they made it 1mm thinner I have to buy a new dock if I get the 20GB model!! That is ridiculous!

noleli2
2004-07-20, 21:42
I can see how that'd be kinda nice, but they are totally different hardware models. There is no reason they would be expected to be compatible. That'd be like being able to put a TiBook in a Duo dock. Sorry.

k squared
2004-07-20, 22:01
You really should call Apple before you jump to your conclusions. The 3G ipod have two different dock covers (because the larger capacity ones are thicker) and Apple just might provide cover for the 4G docks.

matt
2004-07-20, 22:03
if they were totally different I would agree, but the enclosure is 1mm smaller in width, thats it!!

There can't be any smarts in the dock itself. That would mean that my 3G firewire ipod cables are not compatible with my 4G firewire cables. Is that the case too?

Luca
2004-07-20, 22:11
matt: Settle down. Yes, they could have provided the updates, but they didn't. The reason is because although it is possible to write a firmware update to do it, there is no real benefit to Apple. The hardware inside the 3G and 4G iPods is indeed different so you can't just run the exact same firmware. They'd have to port it over, and they'd rather devote that time to something that makes them some money. That's why I say you should be able to pay for upgraded firmware, say, either a $29 separate purchase, or included with AppleCare.

noleli2: They're not totally different. It's nothing like putting a TiBook in a Duo dock. The 3G and 4G iPods are very similar, and if they really wanted to, they could write new software to make the 3G iPods behave exactly like the 4G iPods. They could also write new software to make the 1G and 2G iPods behave exactly like the 4G ones, but they don't. Partly to entice people to buy the new ones, and partly because it's not worth the time.

Both your concerns would be answered by this article at The Mac Observer:

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/07/19.15.shtml

I'm basically repeating what the Apple exec said.

matt
2004-07-20, 22:11
k squared, jump to what conclusions? :confused:


if you look at the Apple Store they sell 3 docks.
1. ipod mini
2. ipod 3G
3. ipod 4G

matt
2004-07-20, 22:14
Luca I agree on what you are saying. I would pay for the software upgrade too!

But not making the dock compatible baffles me? I mean there were a couple different sized (10GB, 15GB, 20GB, 40GB) 3G iPods that all fit in the same 3G dock? I still don't understand why a new 4G dock is necessary. If you are telling me thickness, then why can't the thinner 20GB 4G pod fit into the 3G dock??

Luca
2004-07-20, 22:20
The dock is a bit more than just a heavy plastic base that turns the cable 90 degrees - it also has a headphone jack on the side, so you can plug in a set of speakers or a pair of headphones and listen while the iPod is connected to your computer, without having to open iTunes. It's highly likely that they somehow changed the internals of the iPod to be more efficiently laid out or something along those lines, and therefore had to slightly modify the dock's circuitry.

Quagmire
2004-07-20, 22:23
Have you thought why the 4g ipod takes longer to get to 80% then the 3g. There is got to be a chip in the ipod and the dock that controls the charge speed for some odd reason. If you had a 4g ipod and an 3g dock something could go wrong. Like forcing extra juice into the ipod damaging the chips and maybe battery. If this is typical apple you should known this would happen. Just a question did the 2g and 1g docks with the 3g or vice veresa?

matt
2004-07-20, 22:23
Luca, if that is true then Apple would sell ipod cables (one end firewire other the dock end) for 3G and 4G -- which they don't. The dock and ipod cable (dock end) should be identical in circutry. So how do you explain that? Right now I feel they are just trying to squeeze another $39, which is ridiculous...like I originally stated!

matt
2004-07-20, 22:25
Undertaker, get with the program. 1G and 2G didn't have the dock inputs on the bottom.

Undertaker and Luca, i would beleive your dock circutry stories if Apple sold a 4G only ipod cable..but they don't.

matt
2004-07-20, 22:27
ok, rethinking what you are saying. the only way is if the pinouts for audio out on the dock circutry where changed. Everything else would be the same because of the backware compatibility with ipod cables.

That is ridiculous! I am sure Apple can come up with some bull$h!t story to talk there way out of this one if that is the case. :mad:

Luca
2004-07-20, 22:31
I don't have a tremendous amount of technical knowledge in this area. I don't think you do either, quag. Be honest, did you just make up or infer that explanation about charging speed and whatnot?

I think it might have to do with the inclusion of a headphone jack on the dock. I'm not sure, it's just a hunch.

Then again, Apple also has a case for sale that they say is compatible with all 3G iPods plus the 40 GB 4G iPod, but not compatible with the 20 GB 4G. Is that really true though? You think you can't use it for the 20 GB 4G? You probably can, the fit might just be a little loose. So you don't know if by "incompatible" they mean "a little loose." Maybe they just don't want people buying a dock that doesn't fit their iPod properly.

Quagmire
2004-07-20, 22:36
Undertaker, get with the program. 1G and 2G didn't have the dock inputs on the bottom.

Undertaker and Luca, i would beleive your dock circutry stories if Apple sold a 4G only ipod cable..but they don't.

Sorry, I wasn't interested in apple or even knew if the ipods existed at the time they were out. So I wouldn't know the 1g and 2g ipods came with dock things. Luca, I wasn't making it up to a certain extent. It just confuses me why it takes longer to get to 80% then with the 3g. There has to be something different in the 4g that the 3g dock can not handle or just won't fit because the hole that will attach to the dock maybe smaller.

k squared
2004-07-20, 22:41
k squared, jump to what conclusions? :confused:


if you look at the Apple Store they sell 3 docks.
1. ipod mini
2. ipod 3G
3. ipod 4G

The 3G dock comes in TWO sizes, because the iPods themselves are different widths. If you were to buy a 3G dock separately, you would need to know the correct size. Yes, the 3G docks themselves are the same, but the white plastic covers are different.

Luca
2004-07-20, 22:43
The 1G and 2G iPods had a Firewire port on the top, next to the headphone port. No dock for those.

I think the reason for it taking longer to charge probably has something to do with the improved power management. It's not due to the battery being bigger because the battery isn't bigger. But perhaps they were able to achieve better battery life by forcing the quick charge to take longer than before.

I don't think that has anything to do with the dock, but I could very well be wrong.

Gargoyle
2004-07-21, 17:20
I have a 3g iPod and an extra dock... Guess wha? The extra dock comes with 2 white covers. The size of the cut out is different. So I would guess that this is the same with the 4g dock. Its nothing more than the cut out. So if you want your new iPod to wobble around in the dock and break the connecter you probably can!

Messiahtosh
2004-07-21, 17:33
Apple is so fucking ridiculous because they are moving on, past a model that is over a year old.

It's not that big of a deal that they are no longer updating it, they are still supporting it, just no longer adding capabilities to it. The same thing will happen to my new 20 GB someday, and I'll accept and understand it. Now, if they just didnt support it once a new model came out, then there would be reason to complain and be angry. :rolleyes:

RolandG
2004-07-21, 18:24
I have a 3g iPod and an extra dock... Guess wha? The extra dock comes with 2 white covers. The size of the cut out is different. So I would guess that this is the same with the 4g dock. Its nothing more than the cut out. So if you want your new iPod to wobble around in the dock and break the connecter you probably can!

I cannot picture what "covers" you are talking about... is it the white plastic top of the dock? If so, how do you take the dock appart to change it? I bought the 20GB third generation iPod which shiped with a matching dock and it does not look like it can easiely be disassembled.

thequicksilver
2004-07-21, 18:57
The whole not upgrading the firmware thing is something I morally disagree with, but can understand for business reasons. I've commented on that before though.

This dock thing though Matt I'm inclined to totally agree with you. Like you, I'm not sure about why they've done this, and it would seem logical to me that if a 3G iPod cable would correctly charge and sync the 4G iPod, then a 3G dock should.

I'd be interested to know from anyone who has a 3G dock and 4G iPod if the unit actually physically fits in the older dock. As you said, the size difference is miniscule. **Edit - Just read someone's post saying that they do, but are loose - sorry for not reading around first.**

Maybe one of those Japanese websites (Kodawarisan is it called?) will dissect the two iPod docks and the new iPods to support the theory that there's a new internal charging chip to regulate the power intake, that the older docks simply wouldn't work with. Time will tell.

RolandG
2004-07-22, 06:14
News on the Dock front:

Accroding to SendStation their PocketDock with Line Out (http://www.sendstation.com/us/products/pd_lineout.html) (a device that plugs into the iPod's dock-connector offering a plain FireWire port for data transfer and charging puropses and a line out jack) is compatible with the G3 and G4 iPods as well as the mini - on the lower-right of the page.

It seems the dock-connector is electricaly the same on all of Apple's dock-able iPods and that the differences are due to the size of the device only.

sunrain
2004-07-22, 10:44
Well matt, I'd talk to EmC in the thread New iPods Officially Released (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=1016). He linked a bunch of pictures when he received his 4G iPod and made this note on the page...

Just a side note. The 4G fits in the 3G dock, mounts and charges just fine, however it is a little to loose for my taste and I don't want to ruin the dock connector on the 4G.

It sounds as though you could make do if you didn't want to pay out for a new dock.

Gargoyle
2004-07-22, 14:14
piccy for you... and no, the cover is NOT easily removed. I think in the packaging of the spare docks it must say "Use the correct cover for your iPod" about 4 times.

http://www.paulcourt.co.uk/bits/dock.jpg

matt
2004-07-22, 20:17
Thanks for all the posts guys and girls!

I went to the Apple Store in King of Prussia, PA today...and I am not impressed with the 4G looks compared to my 3G at all!! I love the fact that my 3G is all white. Although I do love the design of the clicker wheel.

I talked to an Apple guy and he said that all docks are the same, its just the cut-outs for the different sized-iPods. He said I could mount a 4G 20GB pod in my 3G 15GB dock, but it will not be snug.

For the 2 reasons I list above, and the fact that this release doesn't have anything else appealing (aside from a 12 hour battery) I am going to jam with my 3G 15GB pod until it dies..but I will be 1st in line for the G5 iMac this Sept!!!!!!