View Full Version : Buy New 15" PowerBook or wait for Intel ???
MacMan05
2005-10-21, 18:12
Hi,
Should I buy the newly updated PowerBooks or wait for the Intel change?
If I were to wait for the change, what kind of benefit would there be besides specs wise? Would one be able to run both Win/Mac software on the same machine?
Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated... :D
Hi,
Should I buy the newly updated PowerBooks or wait for the Intel change?
If I were to wait for the change, what kind of benefit would there be besides specs wise? Would one be able to run both Win/Mac software on the same machine?
Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated... :DThe 15":s are damn good right now. Update is probably half a year away.
Expect a small bump in graphics (but the current 9700 chip is pretty good), and a processor that is quite a bit faster mainly due to faster bus.
No one knows if the machines can dualboot to Windows. It is more unlikely than on desktops, anyway, due to everything being more integrated.
it really depends...
buying a G4 chip right now is like buying a 1970 Ford Truck.
I say save your money and buy an iBook and max the ram out. Then buy a Mac desktop with intel inside next year. That is my plan. Got me a 12" iBook and in a year or year and a half I'll get an Intel inside mac. Basically if you are gonna use the laptop for mostly surfing the web/music/email then get the iBook. If you want power too may get an iBook and a 17" iMac.
This goes by the age-old rule, if you need it now, buy it. If you can wait, wait.
BTW, this should be in Purchasing Advice.
MacMan05
2005-10-21, 20:57
The only thing that bugs me about the iBooks is their slow 4200 rpm hdd, 32MB DDR video memory and display resolution of 1024x768. :no:
I guess I could ebay it for a small loss and buy the Intel PB's when they finally hit store shelves...
MacMan05
2005-10-21, 20:58
Guess I can wait....
What are you using it for?
MacMan05
2005-10-21, 21:53
I just visited macmall.com and they are offering a free memory upgrade of 1GB from Lifetime Memory. It's $218 initially, with a mail-in rebate of $179. Ofcourse there is an installation fee of $39.99. I assume they'll give me the 512MB that's already inside.
Have you ever heard of this brand memory? This a good deal?
MacMan05
2005-10-21, 21:57
I have lot's of digital pics and home movies i'd like to edit. Also for general use.
Eventually I hope to get into the heavy graphics stuff, but thats later down the road.
badtzmaru
2005-10-24, 16:39
I was also struggling with whether to buy a new 15" PowerBook (my current PowerBook is an 18-month old 1.25Ghz model, my first Apple and what I use exclusively) or wait for Intel, so I thought I'd share what I've been contemplating and considering...
1) I've invested quite a bit of money into PowerPC-OSX software including Final Cut, Peak 4 Pro, Adobe Creative Suite, MS Office w' Virtual PC, and Toast 7; probably over $2000 in software. When the Intel-PowerBook becomes available, and if I want true application performance to make having an Intel-PowerBook worthwhile, I'm going to want to also update my software to Intel-OSX versions. Depending on the software, the company, and my current software version, there might be upgrade pricing available or one might have to pay full price for a new Intel-OSX version of software; who knows? So in my case a move to an Intel PowerBook could potentially cost around $4500 to $5000 to me, give or take, which is the best I'm going by in the absence of clear info.
2) Will the first Intel-PowerBook on the streets be the one to get? Is it wise to chance buying into the first generation of Intel Macs, which is a major hardware revision? If the new Intel-PowerBook's CPU is based on Yonah, maybe its better to wait until a Merom-based Intel PowerBook is available, expected to be a better CPU power and performance-wise. That could be 2007 at the earliest.
3) I'd like a better Mac since I'm getting impatient with my 1.25Ghz PowerBook. I want a bigger on-board hard drive and a faster CPU for video work and rendering.
So I decided that I'm going to buy a new 20" iMac G5 for home use, and have my current PowerBook for mobile use and side-tasks at home (like DV video rips that I can walk away from). This gives me better performance at home and an opportunity to maximize my software investment. As time progresses and the parts get cheaper, I may upgrade my PowerBook's hard drive to 7200rpm (like >120GB) and the DVD to a 8x-DL model. I'd probably also upgrade the iMac's hard drive and memory as the prices drop over time.
I figure that in this way: I can maximize my use of the software I currently have that's more than adequate for my needs; add a G5 with a 20" display for home use (which I can't imagine would have lower performance that the first Intel-PowerBooks that are released); and buy myself at least couple years until the Intel transition shakes out.
I'd say that anyone who already owns an aluminum PowerBook should NOT buy a new one. There's no reason to. Apple hasn't really improved the PowerBooks since they unified the lineup in late 2003. They haven't added any important new features, only gimmicks. The increase in clock speed is both disappointingly small and almost entirely insignificant. The biggest changes, I'd say, would be:
- Better battery life
- Superdrive as standard equipment
- Hard drive speeds increased to 5400/7200 RPM from 4200 RPM
All three of these can be applied to any aluminum PowerBook G4. If your battery is failing, you can buy a new one. If you need a DVD burner or a faster hard drive, those can be added as well (though it'll void your warranty if you install them yourself). If necessary you can add them via external cases. My point is that there aren't any significant changes to the PowerBook line, so there's no reason to buy a new one when you can get an old one for cheaper.
They haven't added any important new features, only gimmicks.
I'm not sure I can agree with this.
Consider:
(2) The sudden motion sensor: lifesaver for me (I've had three hard drive deaths with this iBook in the past 18 months, with two different models, from two different manufacturers, so i can't blame it on anything in particular)
(2) The scrolling trackpad (gimmicky for some, maybe, but considered convenient by many)
(1*) Safe Sleep
(1*) The far higher resolution
(1*) The improved battery, (1*) screen brightness and (2*) keyboard illumination brightness
(1) Current revision
(2) Previous revision
I think that's a lot of additional features. All minor on their own, but, in total, rather major. Of course, here goes the 12-inch argument again, since all changes marked * don't even apply to it. But this thread is about the 15-inch model. Altogether, I would definitely say that these changes make it a lot more valuable.
I agree that in total, the updates are worthwhile. Even the gimmicky ones, like the scrolling trackpad. Each one, though, elicits a response of "it's nice, but..." from me. They're nice, but not major. Or nice to have around, but they wouldn't be used often enough to be worth it.
What I mean isn't that the current PowerBooks are a bad deal... they're not really a bad deal at all. I wish Apple had given them a more substantial update, but at least they added a few features and simplified the line (dropping prices as a result). But if you own an older aluminum PowerBook, I don't see many compelling reasons to upgrade to a new one. And if you have a titanium PowerBook (as my dad had before he got a 1.5 GHz one just yesterday), the improvements you get from simply moving to any of the aluminum PowerBooks is going to make the distinctions between the individual revisions seem pretty small in comparison.
He ended up buying the 1.5 GHz model because it was about $200 less expensive ($1599 edu vs. $1799 edu for a new one). Yes, if he had bought a brand new one he would have gotten a lot of extra features for those $200, but none of them stood out as being worth it for him. We didn't have a lot of money to drop on this purchase so even a small decrease in price was very welcome.
So, if you are a PC user who's looking to jump into the Mac world headfirst and get a PowerBook, the new ones are awesome. If you're a Mac user for whom money is not a very major concern, the new ones are great. If you already have a pretty recent Mac but are starting to feel like you could use a new one, I think you should wait. And if you're a bit tight on money, the older ones are a great way to go because they give you almost the same machine for significantly less expense.
I agree that in total, the updates are worthwhile. Even the gimmicky ones, like the scrolling trackpad. Each one, though, elicits a response of "it's nice, but..." from me. They're nice, but not major. Or nice to have around, but they wouldn't be used often enough to be worth it. [..] But if you own an older aluminum PowerBook, I don't see many compelling reasons to upgrade to a new one.
I couldn't agree more.
He ended up buying the 1.5 GHz model because it was about $200 less expensive ($1599 edu vs. $1799 edu for a new one). Yes, if he had bought a brand new one he would have gotten a lot of extra features for those $200, but none of them stood out as being worth it for him. We didn't have a lot of money to drop on this purchase so even a small decrease in price was very welcome.
Hmm, I personally would have spent the $200. You get a slightly faster CPU, twice the VRAM, a DL DVD burner rather than a combo drive, better battery, better brightness, Safe Sleep, DDR2, and some other things I'm not thinking of.
I can see though why, on a tight budget, you might want to pick the previous model. It's a damn fine laptop just as much. :)
So, if you are a PC user who's looking to jump into the Mac world headfirst and get a PowerBook, the new ones are awesome. If you're a Mac user for whom money is not a very major concern, the new ones are great. If you already have a pretty recent Mac but are starting to feel like you could use a new one, I think you should wait. And if you're a bit tight on money, the older ones are a great way to go because they give you almost the same machine for significantly less expense.
Absolutely.
$1599 was already more than we could comfortably afford. But we decided that getting an iBook would just lead to him wanting to replace it right away, since he's gotten used to the 15" wide-aspect screen over the past three years. Of the features you listed, he only would have even noticed the battery. We already have two other DVD burners in the house (one is DL), the CPU and VRAM isn't important, safe sleep isn't a very important feature IMHO, and the brightness will be better than his old Ti550 regardless of the revision.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the DDR2 actually a slight disadvantage? It has greater latency than DDR, but the G4 can't even handle the bandwidth of regular DDR, nevermind DDR2, so that advantage of DDR2 is wasted. But maybe I'm mistaken here.
Of the features you listed, he only would have even noticed the battery. We already have two other DVD burners in the house (one is DL), the CPU and VRAM isn't important, safe sleep isn't a very important feature IMHO, and the brightness will be better than his old Ti550 regardless of the revision.
I see.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the DDR2 actually a slight disadvantage? It has greater latency than DDR, but the G4 can't even handle the bandwidth of regular DDR, nevermind DDR2, so that advantage of DDR2 is wasted. But maybe I'm mistaken here.
I'm not a RAM expert, so don't ask :) You have a point though; the FSB of the G4 is limiting. If the DDR2 is a disadvantage, though, why would Apple bother? I was under the impression that DDR2 RAM tends to be cheaper (for whatever reason).
As for latency, bandwidth, etc., I frankly don't know.
I think it's because DDR2 uses less power. The speed difference is probably tiny and unnoticeable, though. I mean, it's CL=3 vs. CL=4... not huge. Almost certainly less than the 1.5 -> 1.67 GHz bump, which is itself pretty insignificant.
Of course, the Apple salesman said it was the fastest memory available in a laptop. That's technically correct - the DDR2 RAM modules that come with 15" and 17" PowerBooks are the same PC2 4200, DDR2 533 modules that plug into the highest end PC notebooks. Such notebooks a 533 MHz frontside bus so the RAM can communicate with the processor with no bottleneck.
The PowerBook's G4 has the same old 167 MHz frontside bus, so the fastest the RAM can communicate is as 333 MHz (because it's double data rate). The PowerBooks have DDR2 533 memory bottlenecked to DDR2 333, so it doesn't have any advantage over plain DDR333 other than the lower power consumption.
I guess we were in a special situation. For most people, the $200 would have been very well spent. Even for us, I did say it would be a good deal to get the new one, but it wasn't a good enough deal really.
Well, i just jumped at a last gen. 15 inch at 1600$ US plus tax (refurb). I'd love the new screen, but the old one isn't half bad, and 1600 feels alot nicer than 1800 somehow!! Beyond that it looks like the same machine.... (yeah yeah RAM, but as pointed out before the FSB is the bigger problem)
my .02
john
switchr92
2005-10-25, 22:04
Guys, a quick unrelated question, what does the intel switch mean for mac gaming? The problem with current mac gaming is a mix of bad port jobs/processors with arcitecture optimised for graphics work (or so i've heard). Do you think the intel switch will make a difference?
badtzmaru
2005-10-26, 13:17
I'd say that anyone who already owns an aluminum PowerBook should NOT buy a new one. There's no reason to. Apple hasn't really improved the PowerBooks since they unified the lineup in late 2003. They haven't added any important new features, only gimmicks. The increase in clock speed is both disappointingly small and almost entirely insignificant. (additional text truncated with a ditto)
I totally agree.
I have an Apple store near me and on Oct. 23 I checked out the new 15" PowerBook 5,8 with DDR2 memory. It was possible for me to download and run Xbench on it, so I did on it and a couple of other Macs. The 15" PowerBook 5,8 with a 1.67 GHz G4 CPU got a 43.18, my current PowerBook5,2 with a 1.25 GHz CPU averages around 42 in multiple tests. A new 17" iMac G5 with a 1.9 GHz CPU scored 74, for the sake of comparison.
As someone who can do their own upgrades, I'll upgrade my current PB's hard drive and DVD drive when I get around to it, versus up-buying a new PowerBook, and go G5 iMac at home since its price and performance seem pretty decent. Even if someone can't do their own upgrades, an external DVD burner and a hard drive connected via FW800 should be cheap value extenders.
So I'd agree and say further, if you currently have an aluminum PowerBook, there's no point in moving to a new PowerBook, and I even say wait until the Intel-PowerBook is robust, tried and tested.
MacMan05
2005-11-01, 14:23
Well I decided to take the plunge and have bought myself a new 15" PB. It arrives tomorrow. I figured why wait?
DMBand0026
2005-11-01, 14:54
Well I decided to take the plunge and have bought myself a new 15" PB. It arrives tomorrow. I figured why wait?
Good call, congrats man. :)
You can never go wrong buying right after a decent update. Personally I think upping the resolution, 128MB VRAM standard, Superdrive standard and digital sound out with same price counts as decent. (Was the keyboard already illuminated as standard or was that new too?)
They really don't have anything worthwhile left to put in anymore after this. Next stop Intel.
Luca is right though, there is nothing to make this very enticing to previous Al Powerbook owners. I guess the only good reason would be if you don't want to buy Applecare and instead plan to refresh your warranty by selling the old PB and getting a new one.
Ok well I might as well hop on this one with my own dilemma. I have a 12" PB 1.33Ghz which I love and adore. I use it all the time from work to home and back again. Recently, a fellow co-worker has been eyeing it up and thinking of buying an iBook (i've been selling him pretty hard on it too). Concurently I've been getting sick of having my face jammed up against the screen while I work in photoshop. Seeing my dismay, he offered me a very friendly $1100 for it, given that he was thinking of getting an iBook anyways, and for him this would be a better computer at the same price. Ok so here I am, with a potential 1100 bucks, christmas around the corner, I can most likely finagle a new 15" PB for about $500-$600 of my own cash. It's either that, or buy a 21" cinema display (about 350 of my own cash after christmas $$) or do nothing. With all these compelling arguments for not upgrading, what's my next move???
What's your warranty situation SushiE, and how is your Powerbook equipped?
MacMan05
2005-11-01, 17:03
Keyboard illumination is standard. Yes.
Franz Josef
2005-11-01, 17:22
what's my next move???In your place, I would simply buy an external Apple display. As you point out, the 12" PB is a wonderful laptop - the external disply should ease your concerns re Photoshop. The 15" PB is a very good laptop but I find it not nearly as portable and versatile as the 12" - you may find you miss this if you upgrade.
FJ
Well the warranty goes out on December 10th. If I try to sell it I think I would try to convince the buyer to split the cost to cover the remaining two years. This way he gets one year free (as if he bought new) and pays for one. Fair deal?
I've put in an additional 512mb ram, bringing it to 768mb. I also have the 4x superdrive. It is the model right before the scrolling pad and sudden motion sensors came out.
Franz- you have a point, now i'm really in the middle on this...
it really depends...
buying a G4 chip right now is like buying a 1970 Ford Truck.
As long as it has 4 on the floor with granny count me in :D
You know I have to disagree with the "1970's ford truck" statement. I think are a lot of misconeptions about real processing power due to the market's unhealthy obsession with clock speed. Clock speed is one of the least important factors in a processor's real power. The fact is, being a risc processor, the G4 has to do a lot less work to put out the same results as the cisc pentium, hence clockspeed doesn't make much of a difference.
And another thing about the Apple switch, I don't know what the hell they're talking about with IBM not being on the cutting edge enough. What about the cell processor?! Hello?? That thing is going to blow everything out of the water! It seems to me like Apple could corner the market if they stuck around. Look at the videos of the PS3, just look at it. It's the first device to use the cell processor and it shows that it is truly the next generation. I think Jobs is getting greedy and his vision is loosing the forsight it has shown in the past. My 2 cents anyway.
MacMan05
2005-11-02, 17:39
Well I decided to take the plunge and have bought myself a new 15" PB. It arrives tomorrow. I figured why wait?
I got my new 15" PowerBook today and every aspect of it is absolutely AWESOME! :D
I'm amazed by the quality, performance, the shear beauty of this machine.
WOW! I Love it...
Hi,
Should I buy the newly updated PowerBooks or wait for the Intel change?
If I were to wait for the change, what kind of benefit would there be besides specs wise? Would one be able to run both Win/Mac software on the same machine?
Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated... :D
Depends on what you have now.
I am buying a new one 'cause I have a Ti 667 [yeah I was waiting for the G5 PB which will now never happen] and a Windows 1.6GHz laptop with 1.5G or RAM which I thought would carry me over until the MacIntels.
Reasons I am buying the new PB:
- Screen resolution - the old screen res was unacceptable for me. It did not match up with a high-end machine.
- Price - $2k is fair for the features.
Compare the price to a WinTel machine you can get today. The closest in terms of lightweightness/battery life/features is the Samsung X series. These notebooks have long battery life and the same form factor as the PB G4. They have slightly faster processors - P-M with 1.7 or 1.8 GHz. They are also way more expensive, around $2500 - $3000.
The P-M does compare well with the G4 clock for clock - it's weaker in FP (Seti @ home on the G4 will beat the pants off of the P-M), it's stronger in int performance, and has a much faster bus. To be stuck with the crap G4 bus is disappointing from a techie-perspective but real life impact is fairly limited. Huge images in PS will be slower, that's about it.
I also _have_ an Intel laptop as I said. And it's surprising to see which things make this system slow - point 1, it's never the processor. I always have the processor usage in sight, and it rarely goes over 4%. Sometimes, very rarely, it goes to 100% for a second or two - that's it.
99% of the time I wait for either the HD (I have a slow 4200 in this one) or for bizarre windows slowdowns. These are the real-life performance bottlenecks. Switching to the PB will get rid of both of them - OS X with plenty of RAM won't have bizarre slowdowns, and I will add the 7200 HD so waiting for the HD will be minimized further.
Here is my conclusion: The new Powerbooks are awesome value for the money. The only weak point is the CPU. The CPU, however, in any notebook that you buy today, is not the bottleneck. If my wintel laptop had a 3GHz dual core CPU, I would be waiting exactly as much as I do now. It would improve nothing.
Chances are the MacIntel Powerbooks will be a bit faster with CPU, but I don't expect them before mid 2006. Then there's a lot of uncertainty about how much you will need Rosetta for what period of time 'cause all programs running in Rosetta will be slower than running on the current G4 until at least Merom, which ships in late 2006.
Verdict: Buy and be happy :)
Edit: Just saw you did, congrats, I am picking up mine in 2 days!! :)
You know I have to disagree with the "1970's ford truck" statement. I think are a lot of misconeptions about real processing power due to the market's unhealthy obsession with clock speed. Clock speed is one of the least important factors in a processor's real power. The fact is, being a risc processor, the G4 has to do a lot less work to put out the same results as the cisc pentium, hence clockspeed doesn't make much of a difference.
And another thing about the Apple switch, I don't know what the hell they're talking about with IBM not being on the cutting edge enough. What about the cell processor?! Hello?? That thing is going to blow everything out of the water! It seems to me like Apple could corner the market if they stuck around. Look at the videos of the PS3, just look at it. It's the first device to use the cell processor and it shows that it is truly the next generation. I think Jobs is getting greedy and his vision is loosing the forsight it has shown in the past. My 2 cents anyway.
Sorry I need to correct you here but you in fact have some misconceptions about processor speed. Clock speed is not the least important factor - it's one factor amongst many.
There are two myths which have built up regarding mac vs PC here:
Myth 1: RISC (PPC) is faster than CISC (x86). This has not been true for a while. Beginning with the Pentium-3, Intel introduced RISC-elements into the Pentium. Basically, the Pentium takes the CISC code stream coming in, splits instructions into mu-ops, then processes those mu-ops. Bingo, same as RISC. The only difficulty is the decoder part which just adds to the size of the Processor. At the same time, PPC has added more instructions and became more CISC-like because in some circumstances, that just makes sense. Fact is both PPC and x86 are nowadays CISC/RISC hybrids. You could make an academical point that x86's implementation is way messier because it still has to deal with the old and crappy x86 instruction set. Point taken, but it makes no difference in real life app performance.
Myth 2: PPC is faster clock for clock than x86. This is not true in general. It's only true for the Pentium-4 which Intel has now acknowledged as a failed design and discontinued. The P-4 basically added MHz at the expense of efficient processing, making it have extremely high GHz ratings with an extremely inefficient way of using those clock cycles. The scheme basically hit a wall when Intel realized - as many had predicted right from the start - that there is a clock speed ceiling. Intel at the time had plans for 10GHz processors at a planned 600W TDP. That was ridiculous then, and it's ridiculous now. Impossible to cool. Besides, leak currents cap processor speeds at below 4GHz right now. The strategy has become even more bone-headed with the increasing importance of the portable market.
Anyway, a P-M core an compete very well with a G4 clock for clock and is actually faster in some operations, everything but FP in fact.
Only the Pentium-4 is slower clock for clock than pretty much any other processor out there - it was designed that way ;)
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