View Full Version : iBook G3--good enough?
I'm getting ready to sell my PCs that I don't really use any more so that I can buy an Apple laptop. I don't need much, as I can use my mini for most things. I just want a cheap used iBook that I can taking notes, writing papers, and surfing the web. I found this one on Mac of All Trades:
12" iBook1 G3 / 600 / 20GB / Combo
2 USB / 1 FW
256MB RAM (I'm going to upgrade to 768)
$399
I just have a couple of questions on the laptop. I'm happy enough with the price (I'm struggling to find anything cheaper), but I was wondering: if I upgrade the RAM, will it run Tiger acceptably? I don't really care about Core Image and all that. Also, should I upgrade to 512 or to 768? It's almost $70 more to go up to 768, and I was wondering if it was worth it. All I really need to run on this laptop is iTunes, iCal, Camino, and TextEdit. I don't see it being a problem, but since I'm not the grizzled Mac veteran that some of you are, I thought I'd run it by you.
Dorian Gray
2006-03-20, 09:39
It will run Tiger fine, and no, it's absolutely not worth it to upgrade the RAM beyond 512 MB. To be honest you might want to see how it runs with 256 MB if you're only taking notes and running Camino (with less than your habitual 100 tabs of course!). You'll run out of memory with iTunes and a web browser with a dozen tabs open, but it might not be so terribly bad if you limit yourself a little. The difference between 512 and 768 MB on the other hand will be slight for light work (and literally non-existant most of the time).
It's crazy that such a machine still costs $400, but that's Apple computers for you!
This is a pretty old laptop. I'd be cautious. Here are the problems I see with it:
- It isn't compatible even with Quartz Extreme. Forget CoreImage, it doesn't really help performance, but Quartz Extreme is very important to quick user interface response in OS X. This iBook has a Rage 128 graphics controller, so it's not compatible with QE.
- It's very old, so the battery is probably dead or dying. Getting a new one would be a $100+ expense.
- Also related to its age, there is no warranty. If something breaks, you're SOL.
- This iBook may be vulnerable to motherboard failure. Apple may or may not offer to replace it in the event of a motherboard failure. I don't know the details of the extended service contract.
There are other problems, too. This iBook only has 128 MB of RAM on board, so the 256 MB is because it has a 128 MB SODIMM in one slot. That means your upgrade options are either 384 MB or 640 MB, not 512 MB or 768 MB. I think it's probably worth it to go to 640 MB, but since this machine uses old PC133 memory, it's not cheap to upgrade. PC133 prices are basically frozen at their old price points, so 512 MB is $70 just like it was two or three years ago.
The price isn't good enough to justify. What about the physical condition? Regarding the RAM upgrade, it seems as though the reseller doesn't know that this iBook has 128 MB of onboard RAM, not 256 MB. That sets off a red flag saying "these guys don't know what they're doing." I haven't bought from MacOfAllTrades, though, so I'm not sure. They seem to attract people by making less expensive, lower end systems available, but the prices they ask are not very good.
Finally, I'd suggest running Panther instead of Tiger. Tiger is kind of a gimmick and actually represents a slowdown compared to Panther (in some cases; for example, it's more RAM hungry). Maybe you already own Tiger, and if so, go ahead and use it, but if you have to decide between buying Panther and buying Tiger, I'd probably buy Panther. It'll be cheaper, at least.
Windowsrookie
2006-03-20, 09:41
It will run Tiger fine
ERRRRRR WRONG!!!!
Tiger will be slow on a g3 also. no widgets. 256 is the miniminiminiminimum for tiger.
- It isn't compatible even with Quartz Extreme. Forget CoreImage, it doesn't really help performance, but Quartz Extreme is very important to quick user interface response in OS X. This iBook has a Rage 128 graphics controller, so it's not compatible with QE.
That's not a given. It's not apparent from the specs whether this is the late '01 iBook (which was available with 500 or 600 MHz) or the early '02 one (which I have; available as 600 or 700 MHz). The latter one supports Quartz Extreme, although it only has 16 MB of VRAM, so Quartz Extreme has a tendency to turn off when there's too much overhead, especially with an external screen attached. Most of the time, however, Quartz Extreme does work on that newer model. Since both are available with a 600 MHz CPU, it's hard to tell which he's getting.
- This iBook may be vulnerable to motherboard failure. Apple may or may not offer to replace it in the event of a motherboard failure. I don't know the details of the extended service contract.
They won't. The 3 year limit is over; the newest this iBook could be is late 2002, which has been over three years ago now as well. Unless whatever person you're on the phone with at Apple is in a very good mood, you will not receive a logic board replacement.
This, I believe, is the killer point.
Finally, I'd suggest running Panther instead of Tiger. Tiger is kind of a gimmick and actually represents a slowdown compared to Panther (in some cases; for example, it's more RAM hungry). Maybe you already own Tiger, and if so, go ahead and use it, but if you have to decide between buying Panther and buying Tiger, I'd probably buy Panther. It'll be cheaper, at least.
I'm on the edge on that one. I personally prefer Tiger if only for Spotlight, but it is true that Panther runs faster in many cases, and that's with 640 MB of RAM and a faster than usual hard drive.
So, yeah, Panther may be the better choice.
Nonetheless, I'd like to stress once more that this machine is very vulnerable to logic board failure, even if the logic board has already been replaced. There's cases on discussions.apple.com where the logic board had to be replaced twice within one and the same week.
A Pismo PowerBook G3 may be a better option, but in that case, definitely go with Panther.
It will run Tiger fine, and no, it's absolutely not worth it to upgrade the RAM beyond 512 MB. To be honest you might want to see how it runs with 256 MB if you're only taking notes and running Camino (with less than your habitual 100 tabs of course!).
lol, how did you know?
It's crazy that such a machine still costs $400, but that's Apple computers for you!
Exactly. Damnable quality engineering and fanatical following.
I'm strongly leaning toward not upgrading it right now. I think you've got a good point about seeing how much it can do. I went with 256MB on my mini for a long time before I upgraded to 1GB, and I think I could have been fine with 512MB.
[edit]
Wow, I must have been really slow posting my reply to Dorian...
Luca: The machine comes with Panther pre-installed. However, I'll want to do a clean install (so I can leave out unnecessary printer drivers and languages). I may just buy a set of Panther discs. It's cheap enough that it shouldn't be a problem.
In doing my research, I also noticed that the original of this model only had 128MB of RAM. That makes me a little cautious about this now. They are a fairly reputable seller, though, so I'm not worried that they're lying--I just hate that if/when I upgrade it, I'm starting with 128 as a base rather than 256.
Dorian Gray
2006-03-20, 09:50
Forgot that those iBooks came with 128 MB of RAM. Even more reason to just try to run the thing with 256 MB.
I've used Tiger on iBook G3s and it's perfectly usable (including Dashboard if you've got enough RAM - 256 MB is far too little to use Dashboard though). People get all worked up about snappiness but it doesn't do much for productivity - just takes getting used to. OS X is very stable, so it's more usable on slow hardware than Windows, where the UI elements are temperamental and you don't know if your click has really been registered, whether the window will eventually redraw or has died, etc.
The battery will of course be shot to pieces unless it's been replaced, which is why $400 is a crazy price for an old notebook. But as you said, if you want an Apple notebook to run Tiger, you're not going to find a significantly better price. The logic board will be fine if it's lasted until now.
It's crazy that such a machine still costs $400, but that's Apple computers for you!
If it wasn't for the logic board problem, it would be a damn fine machine, and definitely well worth the $400.
The logic board will be fine if it's lasted until now.
Wrong.
My iBook G3's logic board died without any previous signs in early March 2005. It worked perfectly before that one damned morning.
"It lasted until now" is, sadly, no sign at all that it will continue to last. The problems may randomly start appearing, and then you're screwed and essentially on a $400 paperweight.
All iBook G3/600s with Combo drives have Rage 128s. If you find an iBook G3/600 with a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive, then it has a Radeon instead, which is QE-compatible.
Pismos are good machines with excellent aftermarket support (you can upgrade the processor, optical drive, hard drive, battery, and of course the RAM), but then you run into the kinds of problems you'd expect from a six year old laptop. The screen is dim and it can't be upgraded, and other upgrade options are present but they're expensive.
All iBook G3/600s with Combo drives have Rage 128s.
Stupid me. I overread the Combo part. You're correct. This iBook is basically mine, only one generation before. Rage 128 instead of Radeon Mobility, 750CXe instead of 750fx. Both of which, mind you, are much more significant differences than the 100 MHz speedbump.
If you find an iBook G3/600 with a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive, then it has a Radeon instead, which is QE-compatible.
Indeed, mea maxima culpa.
Pismos are good machines with excellent aftermarket support (you can upgrade the processor, optical drive, hard drive, battery, and of course the RAM), but then you run into the kinds of problems you'd expect from a six year old laptop. The screen is dim and it can't be upgraded, and other upgrade options are present but they're expensive.
I believe newertech still sells high-capacity Pismo laptops, but the dim screen is a very good point. My iBook (three and and three quarters years old) has a screen that's pretty much only usable at maximum brightness. That is, you can still read it just fine even at just one notch of brightness, but it just isn't ergonomic any more. The keyboard has become dirty, despite regular cleaning; some keys don't respond properly any more, the space bar is lacking some piece of metal underneath and thus doesn't work as perfectly any more, the speakers have a strange noise attached when set too loud; the list goes on.
I personally would never buy a laptop used (or any other computer, for that matter), if only because of the way I'd treat a laptop myself: as something that I can carry around whenever I want, wherever I want. Depending on the person, that may include bathroom and bedroom.
Just something to think about. A laptop is something that you use in much more direct, personal ways than a desktop.
forget about the fact if its good enough or not, this ibook is really over priced!
check ebay for the same price you could get a better ibook. here are some examples of recently sold ibooks:
Dual USB apple iBook "snow" G3 800/128/20GB OS X 10.3 (with 2 working batteries)
$385
Apple Ibook G4 1.07/256 megs/Combo/Airport Extreme
$500
Apple ibook 1.2 GHz/25MB Ram/30GB HD (original packaging)
$460
ibook G3 800 Like New (384MB RAM/30GB HD)
$399
etc.. etc..
In that case, you'll want to spend the additional 50-100 dollars and get a G4 iBook, as that won't have the logic board issues. (It will, however, have the far less attractive "opaque" design.)
Mac Donald
2006-03-20, 16:58
256 MB is far too little to use Dashboard though
:no: Dashboard works fine on my iBook G4 with 256. Little slow to load, but no problems.
:no: Dashboard works fine on my iBook G4 with 256. Little slow to load, but no problems.
:err:
Dude, I don't know what you do with your computer, but I can only imagine how frustrating it has to be to use Dashboard with 256 MB of RAM. I can't believe that you're not gonna have the hard drive swapping, swapping, swapping all the time while using widgets.
What he means is that each Dashboard widget you have open takes up 10-30 MB of active RAM, even when Dashboard isn't up. Therefore, if you have, say, five widgets, the amount of RAM available for other applications and the OS to use drops from 256 MB to about 156 MB, give or take.
Having used OS X in numerous configurations, I can say with confidence that I'd rather have a slower processor and more RAM than a fast processor with too little RAM. A while back I had an 800 MHz iBook G3 that only shipped with 128 MB of RAM. It was PAINFUL to use in OS X, and I actually booted into OS 9 a lot of the time until I got my extra 512 MB. Even OS 9 was somewhat RAM-starved. I also had to put up with just 256 MB of RAM in my 1.25 GHz Mac mini when it shipped, and that wasn't much fun either. It wasn't as bad as the iBook (imagine a spinning beachball whenever you do anything more intense than moving the mouse), but it still slowed down considerably when I had more than one application open at once. iChat was actually giving me 2-3 second beachball delays every time I added a contact to my address book. I had to quit and relaunch iChat every dozen or so contacts to keep it fast enough.
I've also found that having a fast hard drive somewhat mitigates the ill effects of too little RAM. For a (very) short amount of time, I had a 1 GHz eMac that also shipped with 128 MB of RAM, but it wasn't nearly as bad. In fact, I might go so far as to say the eMac with 128 MB was more usable than the Mac mini with 256 MB. I think the eMac's 7200 RPM hard drive probably cut down significantly on paging times.
Wow, Chucker I thought I was the only person here that had an iBook G3. People always talking about their G4s :(...
Anyway, I have the late '01 600MHz model running Panther, and haven't upgraded the RAM up from the 128MBs that it came with. I mainly use it for web surfing, itunes, and occassionally writing papers. And I think it runs pretty good if that's all you're doing. Although it does slow down considerably when using more than two applications at once. Never had the logic board problem, but the battery did die last year. But yeah, I'd say a G3 iBook would be good enough.
Though like usurp mentioned, the price is a bit steep.
Jesus, how can you get by with that little? Do yourself a favor and at least order 256 MB more... that'll bring you to a usable 384 MB. Not ideal, but it'll do the job. I'm serious, you will see probably a 100% performance gain. I know that my iBook G3/800 with 128 MB felt SLOWER in OS X than my dad's old PowerBook G3/233 with 288 MB. Yes, I'm serious. I had to wait for things on the old PowerBook G3, but they got done eventually. With the iBook I'd actually give up and force quit applications if I accidentally launched one without quitting all the others.
Like I said earlier, I'll always take the older computer with more RAM over a newer one with not enough. I mean, it depends on the circumstances, but it's completely pointless to buy a computer if you can't afford to stock it up with some RAM. If you're stretching your budget that thin, you should just go for the next cheapest thing available and use the extra money to buy RAM.
I've thought about it but since it's what I'm used to, I don't know what I'm missing. But I think you're right. Anytime I accidentally open another application I have to wait several minutes for it to open and sometimes just give up and turn off the computer. I'm gonna head over to that "Where to buy RAM" thread.
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80309-SO
Just buy it. Macs have had the ability to multi-task since 1988, when MultiFinder came out. Yes, you could run multiple applications on an 8 MHz Mac Plus with 1 MB of RAM. And OS X completely scrapped the ancient bucket of crap that was Classic Mac OS multitasking and replaced it with a streamlined UNIX implementation.
Yes. You NEED more RAM.
torifile
2006-03-20, 23:52
That proc might be little slow for tiger. We've got a g3 ibook 800 mhz with 640 megs of ram and it's mostly bearable. Mostly.
As long as you don't use Dashboard and you wait for the drive to index the first time, 10.4 should be no slower than 10.3.
i had a G3 700mhz ibook and it died after 1 year because of the logic board. I still haven't recovered from it, it was my first laptop and my first mac. i miss it :(
Wow, Chucker I thought I was the only person here that had an iBook G3. People always talking about their G4s :(...
Yeah, this is my only Mac capable of running OS X. Soon enough, that will change: I'm going to order a MacBook Pro.
What Luca said, btw. Tripling your RAM will give a huge boost, and it's not too expensive of an upgrade.
Well guys, thanks for the advice. I've just placed an order for 256MB. I'm excited cuz I've never modified my iBook :D
you sound like you are about to replace the hard drive yourself lol
Calculon
2006-04-17, 23:39
Howdy!
Well, this is my first post. Long time reader and fan, just never commented, until now!
I Just came across this thread, and decided that I want to join it. I too have come across some similar ibook G3 deals, and I am curious about the processors/speeds/ram. The G3 ibook predates my experience with Mac notebooks, and I'm trying to figure this out.
Is it logical to assume that a G3 600Mhz (or 700Mhz) would be faster than a G4 with a lower CPU speed? I ask because I was running Tiger on my G4 Cube with the stock 450Mhz G4 processor in there and 768 of Ram. It ran pretty well, much better than I expected it to...I would like to buy an ibook G3, max out the Ram, and run Tiger on it, if possible.
Can anyone tell me if I am making dangerous assumptions about the actual power of a G3 vs. the numbers of a G3?
Ciao!
A mid-2002 or newer G3 iBook has a 750fx CPU, not a 750CXe, which means its caching will be better, which in turn means it may outperform similarly-clocked G4s (74xxs).
However, G4s have AltiVec, and some applications on OS X heavily utilize that. An AltiVec-optimized application will be much, much faster on a G4 than on a G3.
So, depending on what you do, a 450 MHz G4 may actually be somewhat similarly fast as a 600/700 MHz G3.
There are a lot more factors than just processor speed and even the processor type. The G4 (especially the version used in the Cube) is very very similar to the G3, except it has an AltiVec unit. For AltiVec enhanced tasks (of which there are many in OS X), you should see a major advantage with the Cube.
But also remember that the Cube has a 7200 RPM hard drive, but the iBook only has a 4200 RPM one. This alone is enough of an advantage for the Cube to offset the difference in clock speed. Throw AltiVec into the mix and I'm sure the Cube will easily outperform the iBook.
Furthermore, don't buy a 600, 700, or 800 MHz iBook. That's just asking for trouble. Either go super cheap and get a 500 MHz one (if you don't care about speed at all), or get a 900 MHz G3. The other ones are too likely to fail unexpectedly.
Howdy!
Well, this is my first post. Long time reader and fan, just never commented, until now!
I Just came across this thread, and decided that I want to join it. I too have come across some similar ibook G3 deals, and I am curious about the processors/speeds/ram. The G3 ibook predates my experience with Mac notebooks, and I'm trying to figure this out.
Is it logical to assume that a G3 600Mhz (or 700Mhz) would be faster than a G4 with a lower CPU speed? I ask because I was running Tiger on my G4 Cube with the stock 450Mhz G4 processor in there and 768 of Ram. It ran pretty well, much better than I expected it to...I would like to buy an ibook G3, max out the Ram, and run Tiger on it, if possible.
Can anyone tell me if I am making dangerous assumptions about the actual power of a G3 vs. the numbers of a G3?
Ciao!
The G4 and G3 are basicly the same speed wise, till it comes to encoding files etc, since the G4 has the addition of the Velocity Engine (Alti-Vec), which boots preformance in many OSX apps (iTunes etc). In OS9 operation there is no difference really, but OSX take advantage of it. Since the late model G3 chips had similar speed system buses, and chip cashes there isn't that much difference in preformace when it comes to web surfing etc. Lets put it this way, in most tasks the G3 is just as good as the G4.
Calculon
2006-04-18, 00:04
Wow! Super quick responses! Thanks!
Yea, I figured there was more to it than the numbers game. Well, I'm a bit of a fan of taking upgrades into my own hands, and the first thing to go would be that 4200 drive. I was thinking of swapping that out for a 100GB samsung 5400 drive, and obviously the maxed out ram...I was unaware of the Altivec issue, though. I'd never heard much about that other than by name.
I've heard/read here about the G3 Logic board issues, and that sounds like a recurring problem that Apple never really addressed, and one I dont really want to fall victim to. I was thinking that with the reasonable price, I could get a decent laptop on the cheap that would be current for a few years, but once the new HD, Ram, Airport, and potentially bad battery, etc. is figured into the cost, plus international shipping, this may end up costing me nearly as much as it would for a 2 year old 12'' PB...
I guess I am looking at the low prices and thinking about that...is this a waste?
Thanks for the help!
Apple did address the logic board issue by creating an extended service contract. But it only covers failures within three years of purchase. I've heard of people having logic board failures outside the service period, which is very unfortunate for them.
On top of that, why spend hundreds of dollars buying stuff for such an old machine? Even if you install everything yourself, it's still gonna cost you in the neighborhood of $200 to get a 100 GB 5400 RPM hard drive. Airport cards for those old iBooks are prohibitively expensive, usually over $100. Maxing the RAM costs $100. Replacing the battery costs $100. You should either put up with the limited capabilities of such an old machine, or spend your money on something that's actually worth it.
Calculon
2006-04-18, 00:53
Yea, good points indeed. If I did buy this, the best I could get is an extended warranty, and Im not sure on the length of that. All the upgrades will definitely cost upwards of 200, I had a look for memory, and it's not that costly, but a good 2.5'' drive will be at least 100$ US, and the battery comes "as is"...thinking Ebay might be a better deal, simply with a newer machine and more expansion capabilities and higher specs to start from...I hate reasoning myself out of buying computers!
Drat!
However, I do have some of the gear necessary to get this going. Ive got Tiger, I have a relatively new 40GB 2.5 drive from a Vaio that I could swap, I still have the original Airport card from my Cube that I could put in there, and I have a "hook up" for ibook batteries in the neighborhood of about 50 bucks, so I guess the only thing that could really end up costing me full price would be the Ram...so some of the costs are already absorbed. With that in mind, it might not be a bad notebook for web/itunes/photos...
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