has Apple given up on AppleWorks?

[matt]

I hate how pathetic the Apple Office Suite is compared to MS Office 2004. It seems Apple has given up, but if that is the case then don't preload Apple-crap-works, and sell MS Office preloaded at a discounted rate. I hear rumors from time to time about an Aqua version of AppleWorks, aka AppleWorks X. Where are you??

This is one of the soar points I have found with students going Mac, Wintel switchers. The way its laid out, you feel you must buy Office as a student. And please don't anyone tell me you can get through college using that Appleworks crap. Dell and other PCs may not come FREE with Office, but they do sell it discounted big time...and if you don't get it I beleive Word comes with most Wintels these days.

Come on Apple...at least make AppleWord X or offer Word 2004 for $50.

[DMBand0026]

AppleWorks needs updating desperately. I hate MS Word, for a variety of reasons...way too long to go into here...So I'd love to see AppleWorksX

[Kickaha]

Most universities have a licensing deal with MS.

I got Office 2004 for $10, for instance.

[alcimedes]

i got it for free. thankfully i rarely have to use it.

[Mac+]

That's a damned amazing discount Kick! :wow:

I would love to see AppleWorks X.

I mean, I use Office v.X and it works - but lately, I have been noticing that Word is taking up a huge amount of processing recources - the CPU (G4 @ 550MHz) always sits at about 30-40% when it is open. :mad:

[staph]

That's a damned amazing discount Kick! :wow:

I would love to see AppleWorks X.

I mean, I use Office v.X and it works - but lately, I have been noticing that Word is taking up a huge amount of processing recources - the CPU (G4 @ 550MHz) always sits at about 30-40% when it is open. :mad:

That situation is massively improved by 2004.

Not that I would recommend buying anything Microsoft.

[Kickaha]

Go grab OpenOffice and try it out - it's not a great piece of software in my estimation, but then neither is Office.

It is pretty darned compatible, I'm quite impressed. For the limited Office needs I have (try opening Word a dozen times a year, and Excel maybe twice), it works spiffy. I do believe that this will be the last time MS gets a nickel from me.

[Mac+]

I am tempted by Office - particulalry Entourage, but I have commited myself to Mail/Address Book/iCal and I want to stay that way.

I would also like to get Keynote at some stage - so that puts PowerPoint out of the loop too. ;)

I really only use Word and Excel - but it is not financially smart to purchase them separately. If Apple could do a Word and Excel program, then they'd pretty much have the idea of Office apps sewn up. :D

[Kickaha]

Seriously, try OpenOffice if you just want Word and Excel - those apps are pretty darned compatible.

[Ryan]

I find TextEdit is fine for midterms and term papers. Granted, I turn mine in in paper, not electronically, so it doesn't really matter what I type it in, but it still works well. Thankfully, none of my teachers give points for WordArt.

[Brad]

I find TextEdit is fine for midterms and term papers. Granted, I turn mine in in paper, not electronically, so it doesn't really matter what I type it in, but it still works well.
Quite right. Hear hear!

TextEdit works wonderfully for many purposes. Granted, it doesn't work for everything, but it covers a heck of a lot of ground for a free app that's included with the OS. It'll go even farther in 10.4 with support for MS Word tables and possibly other goodies.

[psmith2.0]

I use TextEdit daily. Just a revved-up, nice version of SimpleText. I'd rather launch it than Word. In fact, it occupies a spot in my Dock, always at the ready, along with all the usual, expected Apple apps.

[Mac+]

I don't know about Text Edit for Uni reports - font changing, margin setting, header and footers, captions, etc - all easier (for me, at least) on Word. Granted though, TextEdit is a *lean* app - which is obviously better (CPU wise) than Word.

Kickaha - As for Open Office, I don't have an issue wanting to rid myself of MS apps for some other 3rd party apps (not yet, anyway). I would just like to see Apple produce a Word and Excel app - or, as originally posted, to update AppleWorks into a fully fledged X worthy app.

(Maybe I need to clarify - I bought Office v.X at the same time I picked up this TiBook. I did try Open Office ages ago - but since I had already bought Office v.X it seemed redundant. :\)

[Frank777]

Cool. A productivity software thread. I love these... :D

1. Shame.

Steve Jobs should be ashamed that his company ships a product like AppleWorks 6. Period. [edited; AW7 does not exist]
It defies everything Apple stands for in the modern era: Sleek design, modern interface, technological marvel under the hood, etc.

I understand there have been problems taming the Redmond beast, but surely Apple could have kept AppleWorks far enough from Word and Excel without leaving it to rot like this.

2. OpenOffice is coming...slowly.

Check out this link. (http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/10/17/NeoOfficePatch3) OpenOffice is slowly making its way to Mac OS X, apparently without help from Apple. By the time Tiger's unveiled, there may only be a six month wait. The hardest work is being done now, and prettying up the Aqua interface will attract much more Open Source help than the hard work to date.

I do however, doubt that Apple's spent all that time on those under-the-hood Cocoa text frameworks to see the Mac's productivity space move to a non-optimized Java implementation. Apple's clearly got a package under wraps in its vaults, and Jobs really needs to decide whether he's going to take on Redmond or not. If not, please let the rest of us know. Small developers like Nisus and Mellel deserve to know whether a spreadsheet app is worth pursuing.

3. Filemaker Pro, no?

Apple owns Filemaker, but somebody forgot to tell the Webmaster.
Filemaker Pro shows up in Third Party Software at the Apple Store, and isn't offered in a bundle with Keynote.

While I appreciate FM 7's advances in technology, the Mac version does not Mac-specific functionality - including transparency - which has been built into the OS for several years now. Why can't I impose a semi-transparent 'PAID' over an invoice in Filemaker? Somebody ask Jobs.

[staph]

Apple's clearly got a package under wraps in its vaults, and Jobs really needs to decide whether he's going to take on Redmond or not. If not, please let the rest of us know. Small developers like Nisus and Mellel deserve to know whether a spreadsheet app is worth pursuing.

I don't know about the Nisus mob, but the Redlers are focussed (obsessively so, some would say) on building a "word-killer". I seriously doubt that they will release any software beyond Mellel in the short to medium term.

Btw: for those who are revolted by the brushed metal interface, they promised this recently on the mailing list in response to complaints about how butt-ugly it is considered to be: "The easy fix for this is to simply offer
an option for running Mellel with the aqua skin (and matching buttons),
which we are inclined to do at this point". Hooray for that.

[Addison]

Filemaker is a cross platform application so it isn't going to use anything that won't work in Windows too.

I really don't think Apple will tread on Microsoft's shoes, the risk is too high that they will just stop development of Office for Mac and in the process kill apples chances of expanding it's presence in the corporate and school markets.

OpenOffice is quite a nice product but it really isn't that compatible with MS Office documents and it's font support is terrible. The one thing that is really good is that it uses native CUPS printer drivers and they as such seem to be superior to the native OSX printer driver supplied my the printer manufacturers.

[Gabriel]

Filemaker is a cross platform application so it isn't going to use anything that won't work in Windows too.

I vehemently disagree! If it makes the Mac-version better than the PC-version, why not? Infact Steve Jobs himself stood up on stage at WWDC and asked Adobe to do that very thing. He wanted them to integrate CoreImage into Photoshop, regardless of the fact that a similar technology isn't available yet on Windows. I mean, if not even Apple is willing to go through the added trouble of doing so for its *own* platform, then how can they possibly expect third-party developers to do so?

[BuonRotto]

If TextEdit gets some margins options and header/footer support, it will be good enough for a "free" app IMO. It's not AppleWorks in its heyday, but it's pretty nice.

I think Apple has given up on AppleWorks, but there are a few reasons. I think third parties have done a decent job of replacing its functionality for a reasonable price using Apple's technology in OS X, and I think Apple wants to see how they do with the many more available APIs in Tiger. I think Apple is being very strategic about what frameworks they develop as part of the OS, and that, for a while now, their development of text and graphic APIs has made the AppleWorks code obsolete. I think they're also being very sceptical towards projects like OpenOffice, because, like Mozilla, it can get way too cumbersome when they have much of the functionality from OpenStep/Mac OS X already avilable to them. Their priority is probably to keep the frameworks clear and neat. Finally, I don't think Apple sees a productivity suite as adding much to their bottom line. Office for education, which anyone can get really, is a good alternative, as are apps liike Mellel, Keynote, Create, Intaglio, Nisus Writer, etc. iLife is strategic, and the pro apps do have decent margins I think. Apple is including the functionality of a productivity suite in the OS, made some apps to show this, but I don't know if they want to invest in the suite itself any more. I think AppleWorks is dead. They should just pull it off shelves and let it die a quiet death.

[spotcatbug]

Apple owns FilemakerAre you sure about that? I think it spun-off. It was owned by Claris which was owned by Apple, but I think now it's its own thing. I could be wrong, though. It would seem to fit, however.

[staph]

From filemaker.com: (http://filemaker.com/company)

"Ownership: FileMaker, Inc. is a wholly owned subsidiary of Apple Computer, Inc. (NASDAQ: AAPL)."

[Rhumgod]

I wonder how many minions there are still working on Appleworks? Two, maybe three? I think it is a doomed critter. I hate most things about Office, especially Microsoft's constant changing of views - Page Layout by default in Excel!?!?!?!? I use it to open files at work, but at home, BBEdit will be my text editor. I even use it (well, Dreamweaver mostly) for complex HTML coding. No need for over-marketed, rarely-used features that Word has. :no:

By the way, where can I find AW 7? AW 6.2.9 is the latest that I have seen.

[oldmacfan]

Just to comment,

I used Appleworks to do 99% of my work at college, and I had straight A's. AppleWorks is not perfect, but it is not dead either. Yes, it needs to get out of its Carbon base, but what I like about it, is it's simplicity, I get my work done more quickly.

As far as I know, to use Open Office on Mac OS X, you need X11 and Panther. Please correct me if I am wrong. I use Panther at work, but not at home yet.

[Chinney]

[...]


I really don't think Apple will tread on Microsoft's shoes, the risk is too high that they will just stop development of Office for Mac and in the process kill apples chances of expanding it's presence in the corporate and school markets.

[...]

If so, then I think that they should work with MS to make Office better on the Mac. Surely something can be done to smooth its rough edges.

[Rhumgod]

Like full freaking Exchange support?!?!?! :mad:

[kscherer]

Maybe you guys have thought of this, maybe not. Apple may not WANT to improve AppleWorks simply because they NEED Office. Without Office, the whole "switch" campaign becomes a whole new challenge. Being able to market the Mac as working in a PC environment requires the availability of Office. Those PC users out there who might be in that rare "on-the-edge" phase of switching will almost always turn away from the Mac if Office is not an option.

Think of this scenerio:

Apple creates the worlds greatest office suite with new AppleWorks application. iTunes-like interface is simplest yet and incredibly powerful. All file types are compatible with Word, Excel, Powerpoint, etc. Microsoft sees Office Mac sales decline and eliminates Mac Business Unit. PC switchers, agrivated by the lack of Office availability on the Mac platform, refuse to switch. Mac sales slide. Jobs resigns. Apple dies a noisy death! :eek:

[futuretheory]

First off, yes Apple needs Office right now. MS doesn't own the world because of Windows, it owns it because of the proprietary Office formats that everyone is held hostage by. Slowly but surely, people are realizing this and taking a serious look at OpenOffice and Sun's take StarOffice, which uses the same formats.

It's about the data. Open formats are in our best interest and we need OpenOffice on Mac to be a serious thing. The best thing for the mac ever would be for StarOffice and OpenOffice to kick ass on Linux and Windows so that people move to in larger numbers. Whether it's now or later (strategic call regarding potential MS reaction), Appleworks needs be reborn using OpenOffice formats or Apple is being stupid. I actually believe this rebirth is happening which is why we haven't seen an update in so long.

Also, they may very well have cut a non-compete deal with Gates to keep Office on the platform...when this sunsets, expect a juicy iOffice app based on open formats.

[LudwigVan]

I think AppleWorks is dead. They should just pull it off shelves and let it die a quiet death.

Like what Apple did with HyperCard...eventually? ;)

[kscherer]

First off, yes Apple needs Office right now. MS doesn't own the world because of Windows, it owns it because of the proprietary Office formats that everyone is held hostage by. Slowly but surely, people are realizing this and taking a serious look at OpenOffice and Sun's take StarOffice, which uses the same formats.

It's about the data. Open formats are in our best interest and we need OpenOffice on Mac to be a serious thing. The best thing for the mac ever would be for StarOffice and OpenOffice to kick ass on Linux and Windows so that people move to in larger numbers. Whether it's now or later (strategic call regarding potential MS reaction), Appleworks needs be reborn using OpenOffice formats or Apple is being stupid. I actually believe this rebirth is happening which is why we haven't seen an update in so long.

Also, they may very well have cut a non-compete deal with Gates to keep Office on the platform...when this sunsets, expect a juicy iOffice app based on open formats.
An interesting point. Some sort of non-compete thing may have came along during their techology sharing thing, although that expired a couple years ago. I think Apple will play it safe until there is a genuine, cross-platform competitor in the marketplace that has an installed base somewhere near 20 million.

[BarracksSi]

Maybe you guys have thought of this, maybe not. Apple may not WANT to improve AppleWorks simply because they NEED Office.

I was thinking the same thing. Windows users are, for the most part, pretty ignorant about non-Microsoft software, and a whole lot of them don't know that OpenOffice and StarOffice even exist. They certainly won't take an Apple office suite seriously because "all Apple does is music and pretty pictures."

So, what do they ask about Mac? "I need something that'll run Office... oh, the Mac has Office?" If Microsoft decides to pull the Mac version of Office and update the Windows version so that it's incompatible with older ones (not impossible to envision), then every manufacturer with a currently Office-compatible suite will have a hell of a time staying afloat.

[madmaxmedia]

Awhile back, Apple hired 3 founders from the software company Gobe (www.gobe.com.) They sell a cool integrated productivity software that offers word processing, spreadsheet, and page layout features, with PDF and HTML exporting (so it probably could be for basic web editing too.)

Instead of creating a Word file for this, or an Excel file for that, with Gobe you create a single document and can put in whatever you want.

Such a program wouldn't compete directly with MS Office, but would be a very attractive alternate app for most users. It would only have a subset of Office features, but those would be enough for 99.5% of consumer users, and plenty of business users. Plus, with PDF, RTF, HTML export it could still at least be readable by others.

I bet that Apple hired these guys to develop a similar replacement or new version of Appleworks. I think this would be a really great program that would actually offer something new, instead of being another 'Office Lite'.

[oldmacfan]

I had two people the other day walk into the main Mac lab on campus and their first words to me are "umm, these are Macs, we don't know how to use them."

Me: "have you ever used a PC before?"
TP: "yes, all the time"
Me: "then this will be easy"
TP: "um, but these Macs won't have the software we need"
Me: (with dumb look on my face) "what software do you need?" TP: "Word"
Me: (clicking icon on dock) "you mean MS Word"
TP: "umm, but this is a Mac, my file on my floppy..."
Me: (inserting said floppy and pointing to icon on desktop) "Anything else I can help with"

TP: "but I created my paper in Office 2003"
Me: "And this Mac has Office 2004" (with big shit eating grin on my face) TP: "I can't wait to get my computer back from the shop"
Me: "why?"
TP: "I just feel more comfortable on my PC, it is only two months old" Me: "why is it in the shop"
TP: "It got infected with some viruses, addware and spyware."
Me: "You should have bought a Mac, we don't have those issues with our operating system."

TP: "I can't afford one"
Me: "how much did you spend on your PC."
TP: "not quite $2000"
Me: "the computer you are using costs $1000." (me pointing to eMac).

I really needed a stick to beat myself with that day.

[hmurchison]

Great story oldmacfan....sometimes I wonder if we should be too eager to welcome such clueless individuals into the Mac kingdom.

[Mac+]

Awhile back, Apple hired 3 founders from the software company Gobe (www.gobe.com.) They sell a cool integrated productivity software that offers word processing, spreadsheet, and page layout features, with PDF and HTML exporting (so it probably could be for basic web editing too.)

Instead of creating a Word file for this, or an Excel file for that, with Gobe you create a single document and can put in whatever you want.

Such a program wouldn't compete directly with MS Office, but would be a very attractive alternate app for most users. It would only have a subset of Office features, but those would be enough for 99.5% of consumer users, and plenty of business users. Plus, with PDF, RTF, HTML export it could still at least be readable by others.

I bet that Apple hired these guys to develop a similar replacement or new version of Appleworks. I think this would be a really great program that would actually offer something new, instead of being another 'Office Lite'.Now this is interesting and would probably suit Apple to "a T" b/c they would not be competing directly with MS Office and also b/c with Address Book, iCal and Keynote they have 1/2 of Office covered. If they just get this one app to do Word/Excel/layout type stuff it would probably suffice for most users, as mmm said above.

Btw, what was that *killer* spreadsheet program somebody posted to ages ago?

[Brad]

Btw, what was that *killer* spreadsheet program somebody posted to ages ago?VisiCalc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VisiCalc)?

[Mac+]

haha ;) ... no, I meant this (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=1787&highlight=spreadsheet) (<- link to thread) from quantrix (http://www.quantrix.com/tour/tour.php).

[chipz]

Although I would like to see AppleWorks updated, I don't think that's about to happen. Apple doesn't want to upset the cart at this time. If their "switch" campaign keeps running, no changes will be made. I feel that Apple will introduce an office suite once enough people have switched from Windows to Mac.

Also, I believe that AppleWorks (formerly Claris Works) was never meant to compete firectly with MS Office once it was taken over by Apple. It was meant, more or less, as a competitor to MS Works. Even there, though, MS Works now includes Word. I hope the day comes soon when Apple feels confident to release it's own office suite, whether it be AppleWorks or some other product!

[Frank777]

It's not that AppleWorks was meant to compete with Office, it's that Office has been consistently reduced in price to counter the OpenOffice threat. So Office is now on AppleWorks' turf, with the Student & Teacher edition.

Personally, considering the recent revelation by Microsoft in Thailand that they could sell Office for $40. per seat and make a profit, I'm just motivated to look for other solutions, period.

A combo Word-processor-Spreadsheet-Drawing-Layout app does sound promising, but unfortunately doesn't fit with the Nexties idea of individual software apps for different purposes.

I've advocated Adobe offer a version of InDesign Elements for the casual/business layout market. Since they seem unwilling to do so, Apple should feel free to step in with an iPhoto-like solution. (iPublish?)

[kscherer]

What if Apple is working on new office iApps as part of the iLife suite that will, essentially, be free (when you buy a new Mac) or $49.00 if you buy the software? Apple is clearly making enough dough right now to be able to do something just that brazen! :eek:

iMovie
iTunes
iDVD
iPhoto
Garageband
iOffice

All for $49! :smokey:

[DMBand0026]

^^^
<drool>

[Chinney]

I understand why Apple, as a strategic decision, might not want to develop an Office suite that truly competes with MS Office. As some have pointed out here, having a functional MS Office on a Mac is (unfortunately) quite valuable to many users and I (unfortunately) am one of them.

That being said, I find MS Office only to be ‘functional’ on the Mac. It’s simply not as good as it should be, especially for the price.

Ultimately, Apple has to decide to ‘shit or get off the pot’ in terms of Office software. It should either work with MS to make MS Office for Mac as good a program as it should be, or it should offer a true competitor to MS Office – and do everything it can to make it seamlessly compatible with MS Office. Since the second route seems uncertain, I would suggest the first. But they should do one of the two, because as it stands there is not a truly ‘professional’ Office suite for the Mac.

[kscherer]

One thing to consider:

If Apple creates its own suite of office apps and wants them to be file-compatible with MS Office, it must license the compatibility technology from Microsoft in much the same way that other companies must license Apple's Fairplay software in order to play their tunes on an iPod. Therefore, Apple may find itself in a bit of a quagmire: if you don't license Fairplay to us, we won't license Office compatibility to you. :confused:

Apple may very well realize this, and that may be why we haven't seen those upgrades. :grumble:

[Kickaha]

Um, no one 'licenses' a file format unless there is a patent on said format.

One licenses technology, software, or other intellectual property. A file format is not licensable unless it is somehow protected ahead of time.

[kscherer]

Um, no one 'licenses' a file format unless there is a patent on said format.

One licenses technology, software, or other intellectual property. A file format is not licensable unless it is somehow protected ahead of time.
So then the question is has MS patented that format?

[Kickaha]

No.

They are attempting to patent their XML version of it, but are getting pretty soundly sneered at for it. I mean come on - it's XML for god's sake. Best they could do would be to copyright the Schema, but if someone else were to reverse-engineer that (just like they did the Office binary format), it'd be fair game.

[kscherer]

That being the case, I can see Apple creating its iOffice suite of apps, attached to iLife and fully compatible with MS Office. Apple will then market it within their switch campaign as being better than Office and fully integrated with ALL iLife apps. Bring it on! :D

[Canoe112]

The absence of an "Office Suite" in the Apple software line is their weakest defect. They have spent a great deal of time developing software for the supposed "creative" users. But, those of us the are text or spreadsheet guys have been "sucking wind" for a long time. (And, we are actually quite creative, also.)

I switched from being a heavy PC user to being exclusively an Apple user for 2 reasons. I liked the Unix based platform of OS X, but equally important to me was ridding myself of the M$ shackles.

I am required to exchange documents with the outside world and also draft complicated documents. So I am stuck with M$ Office as the only remaining M$ product in my computers.

I've bought AppleWorks, but really need something more robust for my work product.

Personally, I would like to see an Apple Office Suite that is similar to the older versions of M$ Office. Something without all the bloat and needless options in the current M$ Office. And also something without those mindless "helpers" that keep popping out at you and screwing up your work flow.

We need a clean Office Suite that is a cross between the older M$ Office and the older WordPerfect.

Until then, I'm screwed and still am using this one last MS program.

I've often wondered if Apple stayed out of the "Office Suite" market as part of their "settlement" with M$ years ago.

[gannoc]

I think Office is a pretty decent piece of software, actually. Overpriced, yeah, but still decent.