View Full Version : No G5 pbook soon after all?
Quagmire
2004-11-05, 20:30
Credit to s_sarinana at ai. It appears Powerbook 7,1 and Powerbook 7,2 disappeared from panther.6(10.3.6). I think G5 based Powerbooks are still coming at MWSF. I think it is saying the G5 pbooks are ready to go and they do not be supported intill panther.7 which IMO should be the last update for panther. So what do you guys think?
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christmas is coming and they updated the ibooks which means they're trying to get rid of all their g4 chips. so... you may be right.
wooo hoooo.
onlyafterdark
2004-11-05, 21:35
I hope something comes out soon. I want to get a new 15" PB by the beginning of September and I would rather have a rev b PB than a rev a. But if a rev a is all I can get then so be it. Life is so hard sometimes. ;)
DMBand0026
2004-11-06, 12:31
If the PowerBooks still have the same G4s, but with a higher clock speed, in them a year from now...I shudder to think.
wizard69
2004-11-06, 13:07
If the PowerBooks still have the same G4s, but with a higher clock speed, in them a year from now...I shudder to think.
Yeah that would not sound to good. We can only hope that the PowerBooks don't have the same old G4. Hopefully they will have one of the newly announced G4 follow ons. I would not be disappointed with that at all especially if they managed to have the integrated memory controller variant ready.
In any event for the next couple of years I don't really think that it matters if the portable is 64 bit or 32 bit, the winner will be the hardware with the longer battery life. A year or two from now when it is economical to put in greater than 4Gigs of memory the 64 bit soltuion will be required. As it is now if Freescale can get its newly annnounced processors into the PowerBook I think people would be very happy.
At this point I think the next major rev of the PowerBooks will be in March or April.
Dave
kscherer
2004-11-06, 19:36
If there is a processor change, whether G5 of Freescale G4 DualCore, the release will NOT come outside of a big event. Think MWSF or WWDC.
BenRoethig
2004-11-07, 08:11
I'm not surprised. The only way a G5 is going to get into a notebook is if its in the desktop replacement class. Apple would much rather stay in the thin and light segment.
FearlessLeader
2004-11-07, 14:40
I doubt it really means anything with regard to the likelihood of a G5 PowerBook. It won't be the speculation here that Apple is worried about, but the fact that speculation on the rumors sites tends to tip over into speculation by market analysts and spectators.
So either Apple doesn't want its surprise to be dampened (likely if it wants G5 PBs to be a highlight of its line-up), or it doesn't want to raise expectations in the market only to disappoint them. Take your pick!
Hopefully the top-of-the-line lineup at the end of next year will look like this:
eMac
Dual-Core G4@1.5gHz
iMac
G5@2.3gHz
iBook
Dual Core G4@1.5gHz
Powerbook
G5@2.3gHz
Powermac
G5@3.5gHz
all with 6TB of RAM and a 40TB HD :)
Hopefully the top-of-the-line lineup at the end of next year will look like this:
eMac
Dual-Core G4@1.5gHz
iMac
G5@2.3gHz
iBook
Dual Core G4@1.5gHz
Powerbook
G5@2.3gHz
Powermac
G5@3.5gHz
all with 6TB of RAM and a 40TB HD :)
I'm thinking that your processor speed are not all that unreasonable. I think the PowerMac will also be dual core but only at 3.0Ghz but lets say 3.5 Ghz because I'm feeling optimistic. I do however have a hard time believing that they will have a dual core G4 before a 40 TB HD :D
defaultmike
2004-11-08, 07:40
I can't really see the eMacs and iBooks with a Dual core G4, rather, I see them both with faster g4s, maybe 1.8GHz but single processor. The Powermac predictions seem right. Hopefully the powerbook one isn't too optimistic (anything involving a PB and a G5 right now seems too optimistic), iMac seems right too.
I'm wondering if they wont release a 20" powerbook just to be able to fit a G5 in there. Maybe one that isn't 1", but rather 2" think (hint, hint... iMac). really guys, its about time we see a pbG5.
I wouldn't hold my breath for 3.5 GHz. The Intel P4 was designed to scale better than anything out there and it's currently wallowing at 3.6 GHz.
Defaultmike, You can't make a G4 run faster than 1.5gHz.
Quagmire
2004-11-08, 15:05
You cant make a G4 run faster than 1.5gHz
What makes you say that? Freescale has the PPC 7448 being sampled in '05. It is supposed to be clocked at 1.8 Ghz to 2 Ghz. But, knowing Moto/freescale we will see only 1.8 Ghz
bassplayinMacFiend
2004-11-08, 15:29
I wouldn't hold my breath for 3.5 GHz. The Intel P4 was designed to scale better than anything out there and it's currently wallowing at 3.6 GHz.
Intel announced a 3.8GHz model today.
Messiahtosh
2004-11-08, 19:04
You guys are kidding me right? You don't think Apple will be able to put a 2 GHz G5 into a 1'' thin PowerBook?
This is Apple we're talking about, they overcome these challenges, they amaze us continually. It will happen.
Thin, light, G5 fast.
It's not just Apple, though, M'tosh.
Did Apple just magically overcome the year and a half that Motorolla stuck them with the 500 MHz G4s? They crammed a second chip into towers running an operating system that could barely take advantage of it. Genius!
Remember that Apple can only make advancements if the part-makers make advancements. If the G5 is too hot (or rather the controller), it's simply too hot. Apple can't bend the laws of physics. Apple can't just miraculously change the way a chip works and make it use less energy and output less heat. Yes, it's partly Apple's responsibility in how it designs systems, but equal or greater credit must be given to the chip-makers.
Also remember that the G4 was essentially designed with portable (read: embedded) systems in mind. Quite the opposite, the G5 was born from a power-hungry behemoth workstation chip.
This is really simplifying the issue in a lot of ways, but Apple truly is facing an uphill struggle on a number of fronts regarding the PowerBook G5.
psmith2.0
2004-11-08, 20:19
Also remember that the G4 was essentially designed with portable (read: embedded) systems in mind. Quite the opposite, the G5 was born from a power-hungry behemoth workstation chip.
I think that's a huge, key point! :eek:
I mean, we just naturally assume any new chip (G4, G5) is going to make it to the laptops. And while it made sense (and was physically possible) with the G4, this G5 seems like it was designed with one thing in mind. So we might've made some false assumptions, just thinking the G5 was destined for a laptop PERIOD.
:confused:
Perhaps those new G4 variants and enhancements are the key? I don't know.
All I do know is that I don't want to go BACKWARDS: no thick, bulky, heavy PowerBook with 22 minute battery life.
:\
I would only want the G5 in a PowerBook when/if they can do it right and there's no huge trade off in aesthetics or battery life (it is a portable, after all) than today's current G4 PowerBooks. No scrotum-searing, 2" thick 9lb. hunk of shit with 45 minute battery life (if you turn your screen off and don't actually launch any programs), etc.
:rolleyes:
If a G5 PowerBook NEVER comes, but we have these dual core (or whatever the technology happens to be) 1.8GHz PowerBooks with lots of other system enhancements (top-notch graphics, fast bus, large cache, speedy RAM with 2GB-plus capacities, ever faster optical and hard drives, etc.), then that's okay too.
I'd take a 12" (or 17") system like that in a year or two!
dimmdesign
2004-11-08, 21:21
I think i haven't made a mistake buying my powerbook back at 22 of september, and not waiting till the pb g5 is out. "My iBook was way too slow". Anyways my powerbook performs excellent it just needs a little more momery but this is a future purchase.
I think apple will make the big suprise to us and anounce it at 2005.
Whatever happens i must not cry. :no:
:)
Messiahtosh
2004-11-08, 21:47
I wasn't saying Apple would bend the laws of physics, Brad. I was simply inferring that Apple does a lot of things we dont know about and we don't know all of the details surrounding the production of any of Apple's products.
Nobody here knows anything about power consumption (or the latest details on it).
Quagmire
2004-11-08, 21:54
According to Mr. Macphisto at ai claims that IBM will intro a G5 mobile by December to early '05. I do not know what the exact specs for it but, it should be close to the iMacs specs. Maybe our insider Morpheus can give us more if he has the info.
defaultmike
2004-11-08, 22:18
Well... they did manage to put the chip on a "screen" (imac). So it shouldn't be too hard to scale it down to where they can fit it into a laptop. The obvious issues being, of course, battery life (the pm uses 7fans, the imac 3fans, so the laptop would probably use more than one, or liquid cooling), and heat (previously mentioned). But I think apple can do it, I hope they can. Because the current powerbook line makes the ibooks look extremely attractive (hummm. 12" iBook!)
byzantium
2004-11-09, 03:12
...and the choice of using the G5 in the iMac is interesting, because they put the much hotter running 970 in it. That's right, it's not the 970FX which seems to be only used so far in Apple's higher models. (Powermac, xserve so far. Powerbook next?)
Should I forget to mention they included the power supply in the iMac as well? Come on people, the iMac is a huge indicator that they've got the know how to put a G5 in a powerbook.
According to Mr. Macphisto at ai claims that IBM will intro a G5 mobile by December to early '05. I do not know what the exact specs for it but, it should be close to the iMacs specs. Maybe our insider Morpheus can give us more if he has the info.Morpheus posted this (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?p=35142#post35142) last month in the PowerPC thread. :)
In a year I'm sure IBM can build a G5 cool and small enough for the powerbooks. Where would apple go next with powerbooks, anyway? Straight to G6???
defaultmike
2004-11-09, 08:43
Apple probably will let us know if they can or not in January :P Let's keep our fingers crossed!
Dave Hagan
2004-11-09, 18:17
There's 8 weeks until the MWSF keynote.
I think the PowerMac will also be DUAL CORE but only at 3.0Ghz but lets say 3.5 Ghz because I'm feeling optimistic.
That would be the power of 4 G5s! Awesome!
defaultmike
2004-11-10, 21:26
I can't see the jump to 4 processors being as big as the one from 1 to 2. I mean, only now does the OS take advantage of 2 processors, and only some apps do that too. It might be great for multitasking, but will it actually make the regular apps any faster? I wih IBM wouldn't take the "easy way out" that is dual core, but that they'd improve more on the processor, and maybe even get it up closer to Pentiums on GHz (though we all know that it doesn't mean anything, it'd be effective to show that apple isn't over 1GH "behind")
The iApps take advantage of multiple processors, and I for one would certainly be able to use everything a "dual-dual" G5 would be capable of dishing out. iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand specifically would see major speed improvements I would think.
I wonder what the case would look like. There was a pretty radical change between the G3 Powerbook and G4 Powerbook "Titanium".
I think the (top of the line) specs could look like this:
1.8gHz G5 Mobile
512mb RAM
100gb 5,400rpm Hard Drive
RADEON 9700
17.5 inch widescreen HD
iLife 05'
Backlit Keyboard AND Trackpad
Color-Morphing Case
$2,899
DMBand0026
2004-11-23, 20:09
Ugh! If the top of the line model doesn't offer a 7200 RPM drive...there will be rioting.
FearlessLeader
2004-11-23, 22:45
What, no Radeon 9800?
Just thought I'd toss this out, not sure if there was any other info on this.
Sonnet has a 1.7 GHz upgrade for PowerMacs using the same processor as that used in current PB. Maybe this processor is an easy final stopgap in case whatever they're working on doesn't make it in time.
http://www.macminute.com/2004/12/07/sonnet/
unixguru
2004-12-07, 04:36
Just thought I'd toss this out, not sure if there was any other info on this.
Sonnet has a 1.7 GHz upgrade for PowerMacs using the same processor as that used in current PB. Maybe this processor is an easy final stopgap in case whatever they're working on doesn't make it in time.
http://www.macminute.com/2004/12/07/sonnet/
Interesting... That could very well happen, but that means more heat to deal with in that enclosure. And more power required. It's quite easy to put one of those in a desktop because you don't have the power and cooling constraints.
We'll see... here's hoping for a low-voltage G5 in time for Jan.
unixguru
2004-12-07, 04:36
I would hope that for a special "mobile" processor (low-voltage), they could get at least 2.0Ghz out of it...
I wonder what the case would look like. There was a pretty radical change between the G3 Powerbook and G4 Powerbook "Titanium".
I think the (top of the line) specs could look like this:
1.8gHz G5 Mobile
512mb RAM
100gb 5,400rpm Hard Drive
RADEON 9700
17.5 inch widescreen HD
iLife 05'
Backlit Keyboard AND Trackpad
Color-Morphing Case
$2,899
FearlessLeader, even if I usually want fast graphics, on the current PB the processor seems much too slow to utilize the GPU. Even if they went G5, they could stick with the 9700-9800 generation GPUs for rev A and that would still be plenty fast for laptop GPU. The new mobile GPU's from both makers are right around the corner, however the top of the line GPU's, at least the 6800, are very power hungry and out of the question for an Apple laptop. I'm not sure if X600 Mobile would make things any faster compared to 9700/9800, but it's one possible choice for PB, 6600 Mobile is another. I expect the 6600 has dynamite performance, so it might be a good choice if nVidia has really been able to fix the powersaving.
I wouldn't mind one of these chips in the iMac either... :\
byzantium
2004-12-07, 12:17
The topic of GPUs has us much to do with the OS as it does with hardware. Right now Quartz extreme's compositing to the window store is done in software, and then is DMAed across to the GPU to put into the display frame buffer.
When Tiger is released, the Core Image framework and Quartz extreme will be doing all this work on the GPU -- which is much faster because they are designed specifically for this type of work.
The only caveat is that this will only work on graphic cards supported by apple and it will need a minimum of 64mb vram. So if you have a machine with less than 64mb of vram you won't see an increase in graphics performance.
There's a whole load of optimisations in Tiger that are going to make even older macs run much faster than they are right now.
FearlessLeader
2004-12-07, 13:19
Really? I would have thought that the much enhanced pixel shading on the 9800 would have worked very well with even a G4 class CPU ...
byzantium
2004-12-07, 14:10
Improved GPU specs will help .. to an extent .. but part of the problem is that the OS and software application have to utilise the hardware. With Tiger, Quartz would use the video cards alot more than Panther currently is.
Look at a package like Motion: which is essentially a set of real time effects that you can apply to video. Apple has likely gotten this to work by writing vendor specfic gpu code to do high performance graphics in real-time.
The idea behind Core Image is to make a similiar technology available across all of OS X (i.e. use of GPUs to do the compositing, rendering, filtering). So in theory, *any* graphics application should be capable of real-time effects directly by just using the Core image framework.
Really? I would have thought that the much enhanced pixel shading on the 9800 would have worked very well with even a G4 class CPU ...What are you going to shade with it when even a year old game doesn't run? I'm pretty sure UT2004 runs very well on a normal PC that has 9600 (roughly equal to Mobility 9700) but I tried the demo and it's unplayable on my 1.33GHz PB. Only the closed-quarters deathmatch can be played for a bit.. even then, it's super laggy. The G4 just chokes, it's nowhere near up to the task.
FearlessLeader
2004-12-07, 18:07
Well, I'm happy to dream away about my 1.7 GHz Radeon 9800 PowerBook. I think it would probably do OK :-)
(Particularly at warming my apartment during the long, cold winters).
It would be interesting how they got 1.7GHz out of the G4s. If it is a simple issue with chip yields rated for that speed, that might explain the delay in any update at all to the PB range ... and, technically worthwhile or not, a top-class GPU woud probably help to shift some sales of a G4 model (something would have to!)
I dunno. It sucks we have to wait for MWSF to see.
And considering that last years big update was basically just a faster G4 processor in the Powerbook - I think it would be kinda lackluster. I wish they'd have some price drops already...
It makes me grumpy...
drewprops
2004-12-07, 22:35
You guys just made me realize that the main reason that I'm waiting for new mobiles is that I want a machine hefty enough to haul Tiger.
BarracksSi
2004-12-07, 23:03
I'm not surprised. The only way a G5 is going to get into a notebook is if its in the desktop replacement class. Apple would much rather stay in the thin and light segment.
I don't see why, apart from swappable drives, a "desktop replacement" has to be big and heavy. Just because it's got desktop capabilities doesn't mean it has to weigh as much as one.
Apple's not going to introduce a fat notebook, and they're not going to put a G5 in one until it can run long enough and without making the case glow from heat.
Just because the fast Intel/AMD laptops are big and have no battery life doesn't give Apple an excuse to do the same thing.
DMBand0026
2004-12-08, 10:47
And that's why we haven't seen a G5 notebook yet. Apple won't rush a crappy product to production. If you think they don't have prototypes that work well, you're crazy. But the thing about Apple is, if something works well, it's not good enough. We'll see the G5 notebook when all the wrinkles have been ironed out and it's perfect enough to be called an Apple.
onlyafterdark
2004-12-08, 13:43
And thats what I think many of us expect Apple to do. Anything less would be a travesty IMO.
psmith2.0
2004-12-08, 14:29
And that's why we haven't seen a G5 notebook yet. Apple won't rush a crappy product to production. If you think they don't have prototypes that work well, you're crazy. But the thing about Apple is, if something works well, it's not good enough. We'll see the G5 notebook when all the wrinkles have been ironed out and it's perfect enough to be called an Apple.
Are white spots on the display, faulty latches, warped lids, separated casings, overheating batteries, questionable logic boards, etc. exempt from this little statement of yours? :D ;)
BTW, my PowerBook seems to be developing the dreaded white spot syndrome. Two spots, roughly nickel-sized, at about 9:00 and 3:00 position on the screen, in from the sides about an inch or so, totally mirroring each other in position/size/location. Just started noticing it about four days ago, particularly noticeable on a white screen (if I have a blank white page open).
:\
BarracksSi
2004-12-08, 16:56
Are white spots on the display, faulty latches, warped lids, separated casings, overheating batteries, questionable logic boards, etc. exempt from this little statement of yours? :D ;)
Yeah, true, but even so, I'd say that they still meet real-world performance requirements better than any of those Wintel laptops.
... now what does that say about the rest of the laptop computers out there? They can't really be that bad, can they?
I just picked up a Powerbook G4 12". I downloaded a program called Temperature Monitor, and the idle temp for the video processor is 130 degrees Fahrenheit. I doubt they could get a better video card into the 12"+a new G5 processor withous significantly lowering battery life.
Ok, so it'll be a while. I'm patient. I can wait. (keep repeating that, and I might just make it...)
Any speculation on what Apple might choose to sell this beast for? More than the current lineup? Less? Anyone with a pre-press pricelist out there?
:)
So you guys would say: wait until MWSF 2005 and then buy whatever is coming, if i want a good notebook from apple in the next 2 months?
is that right?
greetz from vienna, Flippo
psmith2.0
2004-12-15, 09:29
Sure, I would wait. Especially since it's now less than one month away. There isn't going to be a G5-based PowerBook next month, I'm sure. But I guess the PowerBooks are due for some sort of refresh. And it's only about 25 more days, which is nothing in the big scheme of things...and will be here before you know it. :)
Why do you say there will be no G5 powerbooks @ MWSF :confused:
i'm looking to snag the 12"
according to a page 2 rumor $1399 1.5ghz, with 80gig hd - with an ed. discount $1299 or better and a good enough graphics card for tiger - might spring for the 15" and 128mb g-card.
Quagmire
2004-12-19, 22:24
Why do you say there will be no G5 powerbooks @ MWSF :confused:
He says no G5 pbook at MWSF because he uses facts we all know as of now about the G5 processor. We all know it gets hot, consumes a lot of power which would give a pbook a short battery life, and it is based off a server chip. The G4 was designed for the intentions of being a laptop chip. But, as we all should know, back in panther.5(10.3.5) 2 powerbook numbers showed up. Powerbook 7,1 and 7,2. Both use the MacRISC4PE architecture. The Powermac G5, iMac G5 and Xserve G5 also use the MacRISC4PE architecture. But, in panther.6 and .7 those numbers disappeared. But, in .7 another number disappeared, RackMac 3,2. That is supposedly is the Xserve upgrade to 2.3 Ghz or 2.5 Ghz which ever is the update speed. Which probably means that they are ready to be updated and will ship when .8 comes out or tiger is released. Which probably means the same with the powerbook numbers. Now this is 100% speculation on my side is that since there is 2 pbook numbers, the 12" pbook will be killed. Also, let me point out that apple started a tradition of revamps or intro involving the powerbook. In 2001 the Tibook was introed. In 2003 12" and 17" powerbooks were introed. Will apple keep this 2 year cycle of intros/ revamps to the powerbook line?
BarracksSi
2004-12-19, 22:41
... since there is 2 pbook numbers, the 12" pbook will be killed.
:( Aw, man, say it ain't so...
I hope that's not the case. That's my favorite, most transportable size. I'd have to stick with the iBook if I want a 12-inch laptop, I guess.
Quagmire
2004-12-19, 22:45
:( Aw, man, say it ain't so...
I hope that's not the case. That's my favorite, most transportable size. I'd have to stick with the iBook if I want a 12-inch laptop, I guess.
Didn't I say it was 100% speculation on my side? It is the most logical reason why there is 2 numbers though.
DMBand0026
2004-12-20, 00:38
I still say the 12" will stick around. No reason to kill it.
My theory is that the two numbers only have to do with the two different processors that will be offered. Keep in mind that right now although there are three models of PowerBook, there are only two different architectures. The 1.33 and the 1.5 ghz G4. My guess is that the numbers don't correspond to form factor, rather to system architectures.
I Thrash Therefore I Am
2004-12-20, 02:38
I still say the 12" will stick around. No reason to kill it.
My theory is that the two numbers only have to do with the two different processors that will be offered. Keep in mind that right now although there are three models of PowerBook, there are only two different architectures. The 1.33 and the 1.5 ghz G4. My guess is that the numbers don't correspond to form factor, rather to system architectures.
I agree. It wouldn't be smart to only have 2 BIG screen sizes. They need an average/small size to accommodate travelers and the like. Not to mention its considerably cheaper than the rest.
Also, its a lot easier to update the bigger models because they simply have more room to be updated. They can handle the bigger processor and the heat better than the 12". The 12" can also be a step in between the iBook top end and powerbook bottom end.
Also, I really hope they don't make superdrive and all the other stuff standard in the 15" unless they keep it at the same price. Thats pretty much the only way I'll be able to afford it. Its considerably cheaper just getting a dvd-rw drive and backlit keyboard added onto the combo drive package with applecare included, except without getting the extra 20gb of HD space.
unixguru
2004-12-20, 06:07
I really doubt they would drop the powerbook-12. I think that at least the 15 and 17 will get a "G5". The 12 is more questionable. Some people don't think they'd let that go. But if you look at the internals of the Powerbook-12, it actually has a lot more in common with the iBook (G4) than with the other two powerbooks. Look at the architecture diagrams on developer.apple.com and you will see that they are virtually the same motherboard, with the exception of the graphics IC. The powerbook board has a couple more things connected to it too, like audio line in. But that's it. I really don't think power users would be using the 12. Its screen is just too small for what they do. The people who would buy a 15 or 17 would be the ones most interested in the performance of IBM's G5. So that's what's most important from a business standpoint.
DMBand0026
2004-12-20, 10:40
That's exactly my thought unixguru. The two processor speeds make it essentially the same computer just in a different enclosure.
They should keep the 12", there's no reason to drop it unless it doesn't sell, and I cant imagine that it doesn't. It's a wonderful computer especially for the money. I love mine, and even despite the smaller screen it's still a great computer to get work done on.
intlplby
2004-12-20, 21:33
i'm surprised that they have not used the aluminum casing with the screen as a heatsink yet.....
i figured they could riddle the case with a network of heatpipes to spread the heat evenly on the entire powerbook surface.
since the screen housing is in a more or less vertical position when the powerbook is in use it makes it an ideal surface to disipate heat from. since it is vertical and heat rises it creates a sort of convection heat pump. air comes in contact with the aluminum, heats up, rises and allows for more cooler air to reach the pbook.....
i don't know how much heat the LCD can tolerate, but i suspect that the heat that were currently tolerate on our laps can be no worse for the LCD.
i think using the top cover as a heatpiped heatsink would be especially useful for the 17 inch powerbook since that is a whole lot of surface area
maybe even at least bonded copper heat ribbon vias to the inside of the aluminum chassis
having taken apart a pbook myself i also see that there isn't air flow for active cooling of the processor.... it i made to pull hot air away and out the vents at the back, but it is a closed system and doesn't allow fresh airto move into the case easily.... ideally they could pull in cool air from the two outer vents and push the hot air out the center vents.....
also unless you have the monitor all the way back as far as it goes the movement of air in and out of the side vents is ihibited by the monitor itself. the way the air flows out the center vent though is quite well designed, except that when the screen is all the way back its airflow is then inhibited.
although they can be risky if poorly implemented and would consume even more battery life, peltier elements even at a low voltage setting could help move the heat away from the processor to a place such as the top cover.
clearly though the top cover is an enormous unused heatsink at the moment
hobbit.2
2004-12-21, 00:19
unixguru, I beg to differ. I consider myself a power user yet deliberately chose the 12" PowerBook over any of the others. Not because of cheaper price (money was never the issue) but simply because of weight and size. No other reason.
I had a 15" PB and carried that one around every day, and after 3 years this just got too big and heavy. The 12" PB is a welcome change! It fits into any of my bags plus lots of other stuff. Heaven!
But yes, the screen is a pain. A Royal pain. It's simply bad. Viewing angle is appalling, colors shift, and the resolution sucks. I would have certainly traded up if Apple would have offered a different screen via build-to-order. Yet trading up to a 15" PB was never an option. Higher res, but not bigger screen! That's what I want.
Luckily the 12" PB comes with DVI out so when connected to a 23" display it is a nice little machine. In a way best of both worlds: small and portable when needed, yet with a nice big screen when at my desk. Granted, I cannot use the higher resolution on the road. That's why I would have liked that build-to-order option.
Personally I'd rather switch to a desktop Mac than using a 15" PowerBook again. And that says a lot as I have owned 6 Macs over the years - yet all of them have been PowerBooks. I am not a desktop Mac person - yet I'd rather go with that than carry a big PowerBook that I don't enjoy carrying.
My primary PowerBook choice would be a 12" PB with the 17" PB specs, including screen resolution. I fully understand that this would mean a super-hires screen, which is not for everyone (hence the build-to-order option).
And I also understand that this would probably cost even more than the 17" PB due to smaller components. But I would be prepared to pay that extra price as I want a tiny yet powerful PowerBook.
Too bad I'm a minority on that request... ;)
drewprops
2004-12-21, 02:48
making the case a heatsink with miniature pipes going everywhere is EXPENSIVE!!
Also, doesn't the 12" currently lack a PCMCIA card slot? I'm due a new laptop in the next quarter and would indeed consider sticking with a 12" form factor if it had the same specs as the bigger machines, which is difficult due to the diminished space inherit to the smaller machine.
The 12" is just terrific for perching in the crook of one arm while you surf on the couch...
Chung Tech
2004-12-21, 02:56
And I also understand that this would probably cost even more than the 17" PB due to smaller components. But I would be prepared to pay that extra price as I want a tiny yet powerful PowerBook.
Too bad I'm a minority on that request... ;)
I too prefer the small form factor. I do not expect the smallest Pbook to have the same rez as the 17in but a widescreen with about 1280x800 (which is 16:10 by the way) and improved viewing angle would be nice.
Mmm sub-notebook notebook, but thats a discussion for another thread and day. And it definitely doesn't require a G5.
I generally fear that Apple might pass up the 12" on the first rev of the G5's. This would be disappointing, but hopefully we're wrong.
BarracksSi
2004-12-21, 07:51
Would the higher-spec components truthfully not fit in a 12" enclosure? I mean, the ONLY real difference in their hardware that I see would be the video card... and those aren't really different sizes, are they?
Chung Tech
2004-12-21, 12:15
Would the higher-spec components truthfully not fit in a 12" enclosure? I mean, the ONLY real difference in their hardware that I see would be the video card... and those aren't really different sizes, are they?
Some people's been commenting about heat dissipation as an issue with smaller enclosures.
hobbit.2
2004-12-21, 14:43
BarracksSi, the main issue seems to be the graphics chip. The 9700 mobility is a tough cookie to keep cool. It seems to get almost as hot as the G4 itself, some say even hotter. Cooling that chip in the current 12" enclosure is either very expensive or impossible. I am sure this is one of the reasons why the 12" has a weaker GPU.
And from initial reports I read the new GeForce 6800Go or Radeon 9800 Mobility are both even hotter. How could they work? Definitely not with the 12"'s current cooling technology because it does get very hot already. Uncomfortably hot at times.
Don't get me wrong, I would love a 9800 or 6800 mobile GPU in my 12" PB and would even be prepared to pay a lot extra for it. But cooling this, the HD and CPU is surely a technical challenge.
Yet Apple allows for some PBs to be operated with the lid closed. This seems to suggest that the LCD can take some heat. The iMacs G5's design also seems to suggest that. So my best guess would be extra cooling at the backside of the screen. But can it be done without increasing the screen's thickness a lot? It would probably be twice as thick at least. And how would liquid cooling or heat pipes operate across the lid's hinges? Enough challenges, I'm sure.
Quagmire
2004-12-21, 15:02
The G4 is cooler on my pbook, granted I do normal stuff and it hangs out at 110-118 F, the 5200 is at 130 F. When I play the demo of X Plane the G4 can get to 140 F and the GPU can be 150 F. That is hot and the 9800 in a 12" Powerbook and a G5 will be overkill. I too think apple will temporary kill the 12" pbook or offer the 12" pbook at 1.5 Ghz with the G4. Then when the low power G5 gets cooler have apple reintroduce it in rev b of the 15" and 17" pbooks.
FearlessLeader
2004-12-21, 17:44
Given the size of a Radeon Mobility 9800 card and the size of a 12" PB, I suspect you can have a CPU or a GPU, but not both in that form factor ... :|
BarracksSi
2004-12-21, 18:09
Well, then...
The main difference between the 12" and 15"+ PBs, then, is the graphics card. Everything else is similar enough to be counted as "equal".
psmith2.0
2004-12-21, 18:16
Oops...never mind. See you're talking about physical size of components. :D
colonelforbin
2004-12-23, 12:12
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/rel_qual_info/MC7447ARQI.pdf - posted by someone at AI
7447B is official, up to 1.67ghz...seems quite likely to be the next PB chip...maybe apple will get a higher clocked version than is commercially available though? been done before.
have to see. certainly provides some fuel for that 'anonymous' mwsf prediction. and if they use this chip maybe it means they'll be shipping (relatively) soon after the annoucement.
unixguru
2004-12-24, 01:58
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/rel_qual_info/MC7447ARQI.pdf - posted by someone at AI
7447B is official, up to 1.67ghz...seems quite likely to be the next PB chip...maybe apple will get a higher clocked version than is commercially available though? been done before.
have to see. certainly provides some fuel for that 'anonymous' mwsf prediction. and if they use this chip maybe it means they'll be shipping (relatively) soon after the annoucement.
That is the XC part, the one that Apple normally gets. It is listed as being tested in a commercial laptop (this is code for Apple Computer). So that means that if Apple does their next powerbook upgrade with this 7447b, it will be another one of those marvelous 167Mhz upgrades. Whoopie! Can't wait!
propropro
2004-12-24, 05:25
I'm keeping my expectations high: maybe the 7448 or more likely the 7447B will be in the PB 12" only. I still hope for a G5 in th 15" and 17" PBs
By the way, I have my saved money ready to be spent in a renewed PB 15", not in a light speed bumped PB (It'll be my first Mac :) :) )
I plan on getting my first mac after SFMW and I really hope that they are going to release a 12" G5. It's portable and I can hook it up to a Cinema screen and get some work done.
I doubt I would crarry my laptop around much if it would be a 15" or 17" powerbook :/
12" is awesome for portability-you can carry it anywhere. I've got one.
Maybe 17" is big, but if you can't carry a 15" around your a pussy. It's not much bigger, if any then most text books. Carrying anything around is annoying, a 15" vs 12" isn't much if a difference.
DMBand0026
2004-12-24, 13:58
There is a noticeable difference once you actually start carrying them around.
The 12" is much nicer to cary.
intlplby
2004-12-25, 19:16
i think the difference in carrying around a laptop is not so much the size of the computer itself but more so the bag you carry the laptop in ...... until powerbooks, most laptop backs where quite bulky but with new sleave type bags like the Booq or Acme made bags it's a lot more convenient to carry all the time
and wireless helps a lot too.... i wouldn't carry around my laptop as much if wireless was not as accessible as it is......
i think size is much less of a factor.....i think wireless availability is the biggest factor
onlyafterdark
2004-12-25, 23:49
I dont think that there is a huge difference between carrying around a 12" compared to a 15" as long as you have the proper bag to carry them in like intlplby pointed out. I think that carrying the 17" around would get a little tedious after a while however; that thing is just a monster.
with a headless imac...they' ve kept secret for a year
a likely update for the emac (also because off the headless imac)
it is as clear as crystal water that the pb will have a major update! probably g5
even the ibook might be updated..imo
and they'll both bring them out with the release of tiger...from a marketing point of view that's the best thing they can do...new os, 2 new products...
colonelforbin
2004-12-29, 12:39
with a headless imac...they' ve kept secret for a year
a likely update for the emac (also because off the headless imac)
it is as clear as crystal water that the pb will have a major update! probably g5
even the ibook might be updated..imo
and they'll both bring them out with the release of tiger...from a marketing point of view that's the best thing they can do...new os, 2 new products...
so you're thinking maybe no PB update till Tiger's release, which could be as soon as March?
or minor PB updates in Jan with a total redesign in June with a tiger release at WWDC?
Quagmire
2004-12-29, 12:49
so you're thinking maybe no PB update till Tiger's release, which could be as soon as March?
or minor PB updates in Jan with a total redesign in June with a tiger release at WWDC?
As in intro G5 pbook and ship when tiger is out so it will become preinstalled in the pbook G5.
As in intro G5 pbook and ship when tiger is out so it will become preinstalled in the pbook G5.
yes something like that,
they can keep a new mac secret for a whole year, so they can certainly do that for a new powerbook...
powerbooksales are highly affected by rumors, they are expensive, more a long term investment and most people are already familiar with the macworld, so the rumor of new powerbooks will decline sales, imo...
Messiahtosh
2004-12-29, 13:49
Tiger will be released at the expo on the 11th. How else would iLife 05 incorporate Tiger technologies? Unless...it doesnt. :(
psmith2.0
2004-12-29, 13:53
Maybe a simple update, later on in 2005, for these apps to make them "Tiger-happy"?
Tiger isn't going to be released Tuesday after next, nutball. :D
Messiahtosh
2004-12-29, 13:57
Maybe a simple update, later on in 2005, for these apps to make them "Tiger-happy"?
Tiger isn't going to be released Tuesday after next, nutball. :D :( that makes me sad
BuonRotto
2004-12-29, 13:58
How could iLife 05 take advantage of Tiger tech without Tiger? Simple: use fallbacks in the meantime. That what happens if you don't have a GPU that's up to snuff for CI/CV tech in Tiger anyway. iLife 05 will give Apple a kind of first pass at using that stuff for people with powerful enough cards and Tiger. I suppose they could use a Motion-like CI/CV tech in the meantime on Panther too.
I really doubt that Tiger will be released anytime before March at the earliest, more likely between June and September. I do, however, expect a release date to be announced.
Dave Hagan
2004-12-29, 16:58
with a headless imac...they' ve kept secret for a year
a likely update for the emac (also because off the headless imac)
it is as clear as crystal water that the pb will have a major update! probably g5
even the ibook might be updated..imo
and they'll both bring them out with the release of tiger...from a marketing point of view that's the best thing they can do...new os, 2 new products...I don't know about the dependance or reliance on Tiger, but I definitely think, given then rumor today about the headless iMac, that we will see PowerBook G5s at MWSF. Sure, they won't ship until March, but I don't think Tiger will be ready in March anyhow. My 2¢.
colonelforbin
2004-12-29, 18:19
I don't know about the dependance or reliance on Tiger, but I definitely think, given then rumor today about the headless iMac, that we will see PowerBook G5s at MWSF. Sure, they won't ship until March, but I don't think Tiger will be ready in March anyhow. My 2¢.
well, we can only hope :)
i don't even really need a laptop until the summer, so even if there are delays that'd be fine, as long as i've got it in my hands and enough time to load software and transfer data a few weeeks before i go away to university.
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