View Full Version : What software do you use to run Windows on a Mac?
nikopolidis
2007-12-21, 05:58
Hello!
I need some advices about software that runs Windows on Mac. I have some uncertainty about which piece of software to purchase.
What are advantages and disadvantages of each of this piece of software?
I use VMWare - but the main driver for that choice is that I can share VMs with other folk running VMWare on Windows and Linux rather than because I don't think Parallels will do what I want.
The impression that I get is that either is up to the job..
EDIT: Also, VMWare was heavily reduced in the week or so until it was released and cost $40 or something daft like that.. which really swung it for me :) You might be able to find good offers on one or the other?
nikopolidis
2007-12-21, 07:16
I use VMWare - but the main driver for that choice is that I can share VMs with other folk running VMWare on Windows and Linux rather than because I don't thing Parallels will do what I want.
And why do you think Parallels won't satisfy your needs? What do you particularly want to get from using this software?
I meant I'm sure either would satisfy my needs.. VMWare is slightly more useful for me as colleagues use it also - and we can share images.
I use Bootcamp, but I've found that it's really unstable on my MBP - much worse than the beta was. It often crashes (like, total blue screen of death, must restart crash) when I try to use my F keys to control hardware functions, and is generally unstable in other apps. Good thing my primary use is for gaming...
dmegatool
2007-12-21, 08:36
Boot Camp for me. I only use XP for gaming or 3DSMAX wich is Windows only. I never had a single problem with Boot Camp on my MBP and my MacPro.
Let me add this. When I switched (1.5 years ago), I used Windows on a regular basis on my Mac. But with the time, I learned what software could do the same on the OSX side. Many times I felt the OSX apps better (pretty much always :) ).
It's the same thing for my dad. He insisted that I install Windows on his MBP but now, I can't remember the last time I've see him in Windows.
I installed bootcamp first, then installed Parallels and I haven't booted into the bootcamp partition since.
I use Bootcamp, but I've found that it's really unstable on my MBP - much worse than the beta was. It often crashes (like, total blue screen of death, must restart crash) when I try to use my F keys to control hardware functions, and is generally unstable in other apps. Good thing my primary use is for gaming...
Interesting, I've found Bootcamp 2.0 to be more stable on my MBP than the beta, which froze far more often. :lol: Never had a blue screen of death, ever in XP, on any Windows machine I've used, but then... Bootcamp is really the only Windows PC I've used for extended periods of time.
I'd need an "all three" option. ;) Yes, I use both Parallels and VMware, just to keep myself up-to-date with which one offers the better experience for me. I also run Boot Camp in case my OS X is broken, or when I just need more performance. (Or for the very rare case of Windows-only gaming.)
(edit) As for what I primarily use? Parallels Desktop. It's not only faster; its Coherence mode is also generally better-implemented than VMware's Unity mode.
I use a PC.
But seriously if Apple made something like a midrange desktop, I would consider getting one to run Windows 24/7 alongside my existing Macs. The price would have to be right since I can upgrade my PC from my current Athlon X2 3800+ to a Core 2 Quad Q6600 for a <$500. That includes a new mid/high-end Intel P35 motherboard and 4 GB of DDR2-800 to replace my now ancient DDR-400 memory.
nikopolidis
2007-12-24, 09:16
What about the price of each of this piece of software?
Particularly, what is more expensive, Parallels Desktop or VMware Fusion?
I just trying to find out the advantages and disadvantages of this pieces of software to make a right decision what to purchase...
Dutch Pear
2007-12-24, 10:00
What about the price of each of this piece of software?
Google is your friend. But for 10$ I will look it up for you. :p
This came out the other day, benchmarks for all three options. According to the test, Boot Camp is the fastest, Parallels is the best virtualization tool, and VM is the best way to sandbox Windows inside OSX. Full results: http://gizmodo.com/336878/windows-on-mac-benchmarked-boot-camp-vs-parallels-vs-fusion
Full results: http://gizmodo.com/336878/windows-on-mac-benchmarked-boot-camp-vs-parallels-vs-fusion
God, that "benchmark" graph is just terrible. http://forums.applenova.com/images/smilies/custom/gonk.gif Gizmodo FTL, once again.
But is this benchmark valid or is it just fluff?
Niko, what Windows apps do you need to run? Knowing that might help us give you better advice.
I'd say get Parallels and be happy. You can run Boot Camp and Parallels so when you need native speeds and only Windows run Boot Camp and when you just need one or two small apps run Parallels using your Boot Camp partition.
God, that "benchmark" graph is just terrible. http://forums.applenova.com/images/smilies/custom/gonk.gif Gizmodo FTL, once again.
To be fair, I beleve they took the graph from whoever they link to as their source.
nikopolidis
2007-12-26, 03:36
Yes the diagram is awful... :no: It took me about 15 min to find out how to read it.. :eek: As I understand there is only test on how they fast. And VM Ware Fusion is the fastest one as it shown.. But nevertheless they say that Parallels is the best virtualization machine. So I guess if I have fast machine (about 2 Ghz, with 2 Gb RAM) I would get the best from virtualization using Parallels! :)
On the other hand we should not fully trust this article as most of such publications are invited papers and advertising. :\
nikopolidis
2007-12-26, 03:42
Niko, what Windows apps do you need to run? Knowing that might help us give you better advice.
Well, there is a list of apps I'm going to use on my Mac:
1) Outlook
2) Internet Explorer
Probably I can easily switch to Mac's analogues of this 2 apps if there are some. I'm sure there are.
3) Auto Cad
4) Corel Draw, Photoshop
5) Microsoft Office apps (PPoint, Access, Project, OneNote Word, Excel). I'm not sure that I could dismiss this apps and use some another similar Mac's ones.
I know that there are some Mac's analogues to this apps. But still I think will need to use some of Windows' ones...
nikopolidis
2007-12-26, 03:52
Google is your friend. But for 10$ I will look it up for you. :p
I've just checked up the prise on Fusion. It's $80 in VMWare store. Parallels Desktop has the same price... It means that there is quite strong and high-level competition between this two producers...
Well, there is a list of apps I'm going to use on my Mac:
Don't forget to check for responses to this list in your other old thread (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?p=531237).
I've used a product called Cross-Over. With it, you don't need a copy of Windows. It seems to work well for me. I've run Family Tree Maker 10.0, Address Book 6.0, MS Office and others with no problem. It doesn't promise to run everything, but I think it's worth a try. It costs $69.95.
Capucina
2008-02-05, 06:24
I bought mac I tried Parallels (http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/premium/) to run Windows. I may tell you from in all sincerity I've enjoyed it! I do not have to purchase extra hardware to use specific or old apps that work in certain OS. Yep, Mac has alternative progs, but why should I buy it again, if I have already bought them for Windows! It's easier to run Windows trough parallels.
polvoronn
2008-02-12, 17:41
I'm a bootcamp user. I like how I didn't really pay extra for it, and I really only use it on rare occasions
I have been commercially developing Windows software for a client since Parallels came out. I bought Version 1 the day it was launched.
I did try VMWare, and BootCamp a couple of times.. but always found issues with them.
BootCamp is messy and takes a big chunk of disk space, and mucks your Mac up IMO.
VMWare is also pretty buggy and does not support USB, Accelerated Graphics and so on anywhere near as well as Parallels.
In 18 months working with Parallels everyday (touching wood here - no not that kind) I have had a few times when the entire PC has crashed.. But that has totally been my fault because my software has taken out Visual Studio and then the entire system.. Not once have I lost a disk image, or not been able to boot straight back into a disk image and get going again from where I last left off... That's something I did not expect from a virtual machine, and certainly not from anything in XP!
Also backing up virtual drives makes backing up your PC as easy as Carbon Copy Cloning your Mac drive. I simply drag and drop my entire PC installation to my iPod once a day.
One thing with Parallels... Coherence (when you have all the windows on the same desktop. i.e. OS X and Windows mixed) is quite a lot slower than running it in Full screen. I have a two monitor setup at home and so when I am testing graphics and so on I use one as a full screen PC, and the other as my Mac. I get very very close to native speeds when running Parallels in full screen mode.
nikopolidis
2008-02-21, 06:49
In 18 months working with Parallels everyday (touching wood here - no not that kind)...
And what are you mostly doing running Parallels Desktop? What Windows-only apps do you run thru it?
Have you played any games thru Parallels? Are there any issues with gaming?
Full_Steam_Ahead
2008-02-22, 06:41
Are there any issues with gaming?
This is the third time today I write here about gaming in Parallels...
There are still some issues about 3d support. As I have already mentioned in another threads, Parallels officially supports DX 8.1 (and 9.0 unofficially). So older games work in Parallels almost flawlessly, just like in Boot Camp. But newer and more complicated games will require more RAM and better 3d support - so Boot Camp is the only way. If you are a hardcore gamer, I would advice you to avoid Macs. Or use Boot Camp. If you like old gold like Diablo or Warcraft 2 - then Parallels will be optimal.
Here how they put it in their 3d support feature (http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/features/3d/).
How exactly does Boot Camp muck your Mac up?
It doesn't. Moving on… :)
It doesn't. Moving on… :)
Exactly.
VMware Fusion. Though I'm interested in that app that doesn't require you to buy Windows....
nikopolidis
2008-02-26, 06:37
As I have already mentioned in another threads, Parallels officially supports DX 8.1 (and 9.0 unofficially).
What do you mean unofficially? Is it just what people say about Parallels 3d support? Parallels announces DX 8.1 on their official web-site.
So older games work in Parallels almost flawlessly, just like in Boot Camp. But newer and more complicated games will require more RAM and better 3d support - so Boot Camp is the only way.
Well, as I need Mac and need gaming and sometimes there are games with high system requirements, according to your post I should use BootCamp + Parallels in combo. In this case I get everything I want and need! ;) By the way, are there any issues when you run both Parallels and BootCamp?
Parallels Desktop has had incomplete DirectX 9 support for a while.
Full_Steam_Ahead
2008-02-26, 07:02
What do you mean unofficially? Is it just what people say about Parallels 3d support? Parallels announces DX 8.1 on their official web-site.
When I said "unofficial" I meant that there was partial support of DX 9, but it wasn't too stable to call it 'fully supported'.
I didn't find any mentions of DX version supported in Parallels on their website. They just mention DirectX and OpenGl.
Parallels Desktop has had incomplete DirectX 9 support for a while.
That's what I was really talking about. If I'm not mistaken this was once announced on their site. This feature is available now, but unofficially, i.e. they don't speak much about it
nikopolidis
2008-02-27, 10:04
That's what I was really talking about. If I'm not mistaken this was once announced on their site. This feature is available now, but unofficially, i.e. they don't speak much about it
Yes, but I think that everything goes towards full 3D support.. Just a question of time. And I'm sure next Parallels product will be able to support
DirectX 9. They work for updating some gaps they have in today version and 3D support is the one of them.
I use Boot Camp because at this point the only thing I use Windows for is gaming. To that end I bought a copy of Vista 64-bit, and a 250 GB internal HD for $70 at Newegg. I put Vista on its own HD, that way nothing that happens in Windows will ever affect anything on the Mac side, even if the HD blows up.
Rebooting is a pain especially since both Vista and OS X work better the longer you use them (more stuff gets held in memory), but for gaming it's really the only way to go. And so far it's been working great. I bought Orange Box and I've been happily playing Portal and HL2, and I've been downloading game demos like crazy. Crysis, Bioshock, UT3 and some others. Even though I'm not running SLI or anything, Crysis still runs at 30-ish FPS with everything set to "very high". Now that is a game that must be seen in motion to be believed.
Anyway I really like having Windows on its own HD for a number of reasons... one is I notice Vista does all kinds of HD access, sometimes I can hear the HD working like crazy for long periods of time. I don't particularly care if anything happens to this drive, if it's viruses or something I can just nuke and pave, and if it's hardware I can just replace the drive. IMO this is just about a perfect solution. If games played as well in Parallels or VMWare that would be perfect but this is an acceptable compromise to me.
How's the UI on VMware? I've watched people using Parallels before and was very impressed at how easily they were flipping around between Windows and OS X, but have never seen VMware in use before. Since the two packages cost the same, and seem to perform similarly, the real purchase decision for me boils down to the actual user experience. If one of the two are clunky and a hassle to use, that pretty much seals the deal on the spot.
alcimedes
2008-02-28, 01:04
I've found VMWare to be less intrusive than Parallels. It definitely blends with OSX better. The one annoyance had been that apple-c, apple-v etc. didn't work on the PC side (stuck with ctrl-c, ctrl-v) but that was changed in a recent patch.
Other than that though it was pretty seamless. Even more so now.
nikopolidis
2008-02-28, 04:46
I use Boot Camp because at this point the only thing I use Windows for is gaming. To that end I bought a copy of Vista 64-bit, and a 250 GB internal HD for $70 at Newegg.
I don't quite understand why do you need Vista on your Mac for gaming? Vista is more resource intensive and might have some issues particularly with games... I think it is better for you to install XP on your Mac...
I put Vista on its own HD, that way nothing that happens in Windows will ever affect anything on the Mac side, even if the HD blows up.
Is it external HD? If it is do you plug it thru USB or you use Firewire? I wonder if BootCamp supports Firewire because Parallels unfortunetely doesn't...
Since the two packages cost the same, and seem to perform similarly, the real purchase decision for me boils down to the actual user experience.
I would say to your personal experience. I mean it is all individual. When I opened this thread several months ago I tried to gather as much opinions as I can. And I noticed that sometimes these opinions are completely different... For someone particular feature could be advantage for another it is disadvantage.. How could you make decision in such terms? Well, I have chosen Parallels Desktop relying on my intuition and it wasn't mistake. I really enjoy it. :)
I wonder if BootCamp supports Firewire
Yup, it does — not for booting, though.
Full_Steam_Ahead
2008-02-28, 04:58
Is it external HD? If it is do you plug it thru USB or you use Firewire? I wonder if BootCamp supports Firewire because Parallels unfortunetely doesn't...
Firewire is not supported yet in Parallels (hopefully it will be in 3.x versions or so), but there's a way to make a firewire external HDD work in Parallels. You can see the files stored on it in your Guest OS if you make a shared folder. There's an explanation in Parallels documentation (http://kb.parallels.com/entry/42/54/0/).
I don't quite understand why do you need Vista on your Mac for gaming? Vista is more resource intensive and might have some issues particularly with games... I think it is better for you to install XP on your Mac...
Because hacking DX10 onto XP is possible, but not advisable.
I wonder if BootCamp supports Firewire because Parallels unfortunetely doesn't...
Boot Camp currently only works with internal HDDs, so no USB either.
I don't quite understand why do you need Vista on your Mac for gaming? Vista is more resource intensive and might have some issues particularly with games... I think it is better for you to install XP on your Mac...
Vista is fine. I did a lot of research beforehand (including asking people here) and eventually I came to the conclusion that despite possibly losing some performance it wouldn't be much, and obviously Microsoft is pushing people to drop XP and run Vista. Since Apple recently made Boot Camp compatible with Vista 64-bit, I decided to go with that. And it has been fine with the exception of a bug in the Vista installer that confuses it if there's more than one internal HD in your system. I got advice from a lot of people including a couple friends who are both running Vista on their main gaming PCs, and while opinions were spread out almost evenly across all sides, the overall conclusion seemed to be that Vista for gaming is fine. Maybe performance isn't quite as good, but it does have DirectX 10, and Vista is basically futureproofed compared to XP, which MS is trying to get people to stop using.
And truthfully, performance in games on Vista is more than acceptable for a casual gamer like me. I get a solid 60+ fps in UT3, performance is excellent in Bioshock. The resource intensive thing is irrelevant on my Mac Pro which has 10 GB of ram (another reason to get Vista 64-bit), and cpu usage has yet to go past 20%, no matter what I'm doing. The bottom line is that from everything I've seen, read and experienced, Vista is fine for gaming for everybody except the most hardcore of gamers - assuming you have a machine that exceeds Vista's requirements.
Is it external HD? If it is do you plug it thru USB or you use Firewire? I wonder if BootCamp supports Firewire because Parallels unfortunetely doesn't...
It's on an internal HD.
I use Parallels at work, and it's been working very nicely for me with some ad upload sites that aren't Mac compatible or have issues with our firewall on Macs.
sirnick4
2008-02-28, 15:04
I voted Boot Camp. I've had it on my machine for about 5 months and I rarely use it.
I am taking it off my computer as I type this.
That's the nice thing about using a VM: you can simply move the VM image to an external disk when you don't need it, and when you want it again, you can just bring it back/run it from the external without the guest OS noticing a difference.
nikopolidis
2008-03-03, 05:02
Vista is fine. I did a lot of research beforehand (including asking people here) and eventually I came to the conclusion that despite possibly losing some performance it wouldn't be much, and obviously Microsoft is pushing people to drop XP and run Vista.
Ok, I don't want to argue with you about how good is Vista compared to XP especially if you have such a powerful Mac! It must run perfectly with such characteristics.. :) But I don't understand how Microsoft pushes people to drop XP.. I don't feel any pressure on me... :)
Don't know about gaming but I know that there are some issues with apps when you run them thru Vista...
That's the nice thing about using a VM: you can simply move the VM image to an external disk when you don't need it, and when you want it again, you can just bring it back/run it from the external without the guest OS noticing a difference.
If I understood you correctly I'm sure Parallels Desktop has the same feature and it is not only Fusion's merit...
If I understood you correctly I'm sure Parallels Desktop has the same feature and it is not only Fusion's merit...
Yes. Parallels Desktop, VMware Fusion, VirtualBox, Virtual PC, etc. all share the characteristic that the VMs are simply files; as such, you can move them around.
Capucina
2008-03-03, 10:53
I'm a bootcamp user. I like how I didn't really pay extra for it, and I really only use it on rare occasions
I'm lazy to shut down mac to Bootcamp and, me too, I use it rarely! Believe me, it's easier to run Windows with parallels because mac and wind work in the same time!!! So you may not shut down to use windows!
Capucina
2008-03-03, 11:29
I'm a bootcamp user. I like how I didn't really pay extra for it, and I really only use it on rare occasions
I'm lazy to shut down mac to Bootcamp and, me too, I use it rarely! Believe me, it's easier to run Windows with parallels because mac and wind work in the same time!!! So you may not shut down to use windows!
nikopolidis
2008-03-05, 05:51
I'm a bootcamp user. I like how I didn't really pay extra for it, and I really only use it on rare occasions
And what for do you use it? Gaming? I use BootCamp for gaming, because it is perfect for it...
Believe me, it's easier to run Windows with parallels because mac and wind work in the same time!!! So you may not shut down to use windows!
Well, I think if he uses it rarely there is no problem for him to reboot. I think main advantage of Parallels and Fusion works for people who use both OSs often and need to run it simultaneously... :) That's why Parallels Desktop works for me! ;)
drewprops
2008-03-05, 07:05
They installed VMWare Fusion on my machine at work... surprised at how spiffy XP runs on a CoreDuo machine.
Ok, I don't want to argue with you about how good is Vista compared to XP especially if you have such a powerful Mac! It must run perfectly with such characteristics.. :) But I don't understand how Microsoft pushes people to drop XP.. I don't feel any pressure on me... :)
Don't know about gaming but I know that there are some issues with apps when you run them thru Vista...
Oh, I just meant because MS is going to stop selling XP in a couple months so your only choice will be Vista. At least that's what MS wants, we all know people will find ways to keep using XP forever. I've only had one app-related issue in Vista so far, and it's just because there aren't any 64-bit drivers for the device I'm trying to install, so it's not really a bug.
beardedmacuser
2008-03-06, 12:01
But I don't understand how Microsoft pushes people to drop XP.
Microsoft is a software company, and it makes money by selling discs or installs of Windows. The more they can encourage folk to upgrade to Vista (by buying the disc to install themselves or by buying a new computer) the more money they make. The more folk move to Vista the more it will establish Vista as the Windows OS of choice, leaving XP users feeling left behind and more motivated to "upgrade." If I were Microsoft I'd drop all support for XP other than critical security updates and what contracts with enterprise legally require, and stop selling it ASAP*. I wonder if there's some way in which Microsoft can accelerate the demise of XP? XP had (amongst others) "pretty colours," ClearType, built-in wireless, CD-burning and a software firewall which 2000 lacked. What are the killer Vista-only attractions? Aero? Sidebar? UAC?
* Although speaking as a Windows user, I still use XP and intend to use XP until I have a clear requirement for a new Windows OS. I upgraded from 2000 to XP on the day Vista was launched! And that was only because I could get a copy for free from work.
nikopolidis
2008-03-12, 08:03
Oh, I just meant because MS is going to stop selling XP in a couple months so your only choice will be Vista. At least that's what MS wants, we all know people will find ways to keep using XP forever.
Oh, yeah! Agree with you absolutely because I have live example.. I couldn't buy laptop for my sister with XP on it month ago... There is a built-in Vista almost on every PC and laptop today...
Well, I think it is the wrong way to pile up the sales for such great company as Microsoft.. They should improve Vista instead! I'm sure that everyone in Microsoft know the situation about Vista: they read reports so they know the opinions of their users... There must be such feedback. So they should think about improving Vista to save their nice reputation.
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