shouldn't there be a law against this? [Archive]

View Full Version : shouldn't there be a law against this?

BurningWheel

2004-05-26, 10:13

Arkansas family celebrates birth of 15th child (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/05/25/fifteen.kids.ap/index.html)

'nuff said

psmith2.0

2004-05-26, 10:38

Not sure if you're joking or being serious, but "against the law"? Why?

If they're loved, cared for and raised properly (taught manners, respect, a work ethic, consideration for others, etc.) then what's the problem? Looks like a big happy family to me. They don't seem like a poverty-stricken, "barely hangin' on" group in that photo. Snappy little dressers, they are.

:D

I'd be curious to read more background on them, but if they're making their way and have it all worked out and aren't looking for all of us to finance their situation, God bless 'em.

I mean honestly...I worry less about 15 clean, groomed, nicely dressed and smiling children than I do about 3-5 children born to an addicted mother in a hopeless, rundown setting with no father(s) in sight and destined for a life of public assistance, no real chance at a good education, etc.

:(

THAT'S who I'd be more inclined to worry about and want to help, or get "laws" involved in (making sure fathers hold up their end of the deal, financially at least, and things of that nature).

psmith2.0

2004-05-26, 10:50

Re-read the article and they're being homeschooled, their father was a state legislator and now a real estate businessman. And they're building their own house. The parents seem educated, motivated and possessed with some sense, work ethic (building your home from the ground up ain't a cake walk, I'm sure) and so forth.

They probably have a close-knit, happy life. I know several families like this (not this large, of course, but over five or six children, home schooled, tight-knit, etc.), and they're the most well-adjusted, loving and hard-working people I know. They kinda HAVE to be, you know? And that's something I'd never want to "have a law against".

:)

I don't worry about them (the families I know AND the one in this story) at all, honestly. They seem to "get it", IMO. Yes, it may seem old-fashioned and "out of step" in these times, I do realize. But hasn't there been two centuries of people doing this exact thing? But the nation is certainly intact and no worse for it. In fact, at one time it was common and expected, I'd suspect. But it's 2004 now, and so realize it's merely "quaint", at absolute worst.

Curious about a few things, regarding this story and any "troubling flag" raised by it (or possibly perceived by others, since a local radio show spent 90 minutes making fun of the story last night, which got me thinking...). I think I'll let this thread proceed on a bit, naturally and on its own, and see if my little theory pans out.

;)

Ebby

2004-05-26, 12:27

Hmmm...

Why does Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life" spring into my mind.
;)

psmith2.0

2004-05-26, 12:30

A lot of kids? Never saw it.

SonOfSylvanus

2004-05-26, 15:50

I cringe at that story. A 'Young Mother of the Year' award?! :rolleyes: And surprise surprise, the winner is (drum roll): an uber-symbol of wholesome American virtues - sturdy, hard-working, earthy, traditional, very religious (a "Southern Baptist" (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/04/earlyshow/contributors/melindamurphy/main615586.shtml)), a disciplinarian ("call[s] the chores "jurisdictions" (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/04/earlyshow/contributors/melindamurphy/main615586.shtml)) and living (one version of the wondrously malleable) American Dream...

The American Dream, indeed. Mrs Duggar is helping to build her own (massive) house, she home schools her children and, oh yes, she "walked into Arkansas capitol[sic]" (http://www.news-leader.com/today/0408-Arkansasho-58212.html) to receive her prize... perfect. And how do the Duggars pay for all those bouncing concentrates of edifying goodness, products of a land of freedom and plenty? Well, Jim Bob (the father) made "some smart investments" (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/04/earlyshow/contributors/melindamurphy/main615586.shtml)... Heh... purr-fect.

I tried looking (http://www.google.com/search?q=Arkansas+Young+Mother+of+the+Year+award&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) for past winners of the award to no avail, but going by this...
Nominees for this award are sought yearly on the state level with recommendations coming from the mother's outside contacts such as a church groups, choral groups, PTA organizations, local businesses etc. Family members are not allowed to nominate. Nominees are well respected, devoted mothers who interact in a positive manner on a family, spiritual, community and civic basis. Each state selected mother vies for the title of the AMI National?"Mother of the Year" at the national convention. (Link (http://www.americanmothers.org/))
...I guess that previous winners of the 'Young Mother of the Year' award (sponsored by American Mothers Incorporated (http://www.americanmothers.org/)) have all been white, middle-class and, well, wholesome. Of course no-one who actually deserved recognition for bringing up a family (for overcoming financial hardship, social prejudice, cultural exclusion, physical/psychological injury or the like) would win something like that.

But this is moot - all societies devise ways to reinforce cultural mores and moral stereotypes and there's no need for me to jump all over this (http://www.americanmothers.org/ARTOILORACRYLICPAINTING2003.htm) particular one, however blatant and grotesque I find it (and its wide-spread coverage).

As for fifteen kids...

There is a difference between saying that there should be a law against having a large number of children (say, over five, for the sake of argument); saying that large families should not be encouraged; and saying that large families should be actively discouraged. I suggest that BurningWheel was being facetious with the title of this thread ("shouldn't there be alaw[sic] against this?"), but maybe he wasn't. Anyway, my opinion is that the creation of large families should never be encouraged and that arguments against them should be made widely available.

Don't get my wrong, I would love to have children, but would hesitate over having more than two. Two children is a good number for families in the West. Firstly, two kids shouldn't get lonely with one another. Secondly, parents in the USA/Western Europe don't need to produce a small labour-force of kids to work in fields or on the streets in order to make money for the upkeep of their homes, or as security for themselves in later life. (Population increase is inextricably linked (http://www.worldbank.org/poverty/health/data/) with poverty.) Thirdly, there is no labour shortage, health crisis or military emergency in the USA or Western Europe that merits an increase in population (i.e. there is no "national demographic" argument for large families). Fourthly, the rich countries of the world are already a blight on the Earth and its people, consuming the lion's share of resources so that there is not enough left at hand to go around. Already, we're rigging the playing field (http://europa.eu.int/pol/agr/index_en.htm), we're about to use up every last drop (http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/), we're scorching the skies (http://www.science.gmu.edu/~zli/ghe.html), we're wading in our own shite (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/subjects/waste/?lang=_e) and we're waging war (http://www.wageslave.org/deathcount/). All for us, and our way of life. Please! No more of us! And, lastly, just for all you libertarian Republicans, large families (though, not in the case of Mrs Duggar's) almost always present a burden to the welfare system and so represent a Stealth Tax on YOU! (Nach... Wins the attention of middle America/England/*Insert Home Country Here* every time).

Although he is talking about overpopulation in developing countries, I think that what the Dalai Lama says here about how populations destroy the Earth is the key reason why we have a "social duty" to have small families...

"The growth in population is very much bound up with poverty, and in turn poverty plunders the earth. When human groups are dying of hunger, they eat everything: grass, insects, everything. They cut down the trees, they leave the land dry and bare. All other concerns vanish. That's why in the next thirty years the problems we call "environmental" will be the hardest that humanity has to face."
~ Tenzin Gyatso, the fourteenth Dalai Lama (Link (http://mindprod.com/population.html))

Eh... Put far too much effort into that. I'm quite "into" environmentalism though.

psmith2.0

2004-05-26, 16:02

Wickers

2004-05-26, 16:09

Hmmm...

Why does Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life" spring into my mind.
;)

Oh great, that song will be stuck in my head all night now...

:)

BurningWheel

2004-05-26, 18:14

psmith2.0

2004-05-26, 19:19

Need? Nah, probably not. Want? Well, that's a whole other thing, and what business is it of ours? Are they making it happen? Seems like it.

Hate to sound like a Hallmark card, but I think there's plenty of love to go around here. I don't think you can put a finite, tangible number or limit on a parent's love and devotion to their children. Sure, not ALL cases - as is too often, sadly, the case - but maybe this family is a nice exception?

I think it's shocking to some of you, in this day and age of 2 child families and whatnot. But step back and realize it's not some freakshow to be scorned, and don't be so quick to pass judgement on something that is in no way evil or offensive and harmful to others.

Lots of families out there WAY more deserving of your concern/sympathy/outrage, you know? But I realize a wholesome, Christian clan is an easier - and juicier - target. It's "safe", right?

I mean, who's ever gonna ding you for picking on this family and their beliefs/outlook?

Well, besides me...

;)

Windswept

2004-05-26, 21:04

mods: please fix typo in thread name.
I tried to fix it, but it wouldn't "fix".

I guess I can edit the post, but not the title, for some reason.

Oh well. Guess it will take someone with higher powers than mine. ;) Sorry.

EDS66

2004-05-26, 21:07

I tried to fix it, but it wouldn't "fix".

I guess I can edit the post, but not the title, for some reason.

Oh well. Guess it will take someone with higher powers than mine. ;) Sorry.

I tried to fix a spelling mistake in a title of the thread started by me and could not do it. Probably a bug...maybe a feature.

EDS66

2004-05-26, 21:12

i was serious. there is no way that they can love all those children the same amount. i suspect some will have problems with the law in the future. they probably get some kind of government assistance too.

i mean come on, do they really need that many children:confused:

mods: please fix typo in thread name.

Wha..?

These folks appear to be well-off. Perhaps there are religious underpinnings to the woman's fecundity, but who cares. They all look happy. I envy this family, to be honest...and I don't even want to start a sociobiological argument here.

Brad

2004-05-27, 00:46

I guess I can edit the post, but not the title, for some reason.
You need to use the Edit Thread option under the Thread Tools link at the top. I took care of it. :)

And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion...

torifile

2004-05-27, 02:05

That's NOTHING! Last year, I was at a place to be unnamed working in a division also unnamed and there was a client/patient there who was HIV positive. She was saying that she would continue to have children until I can't remember what. But the State wanted her to be declared crazy (the legal term, I'm sure) so they could do something about it. That's bad. This is nothing....

Seriously, I worry less about kids born into a good home, regardless of how many of them there are or what crazy-ass faith their parents are (just kidding...sort of), than the aforementioned woman's kids. My political views were stretched by this case. I'm still pondering it....

Windswept

2004-05-27, 04:15

You need to use the Edit Thread option under the Thread Tools link at the top. I took care of it. :)

And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion...
Cool ! Thanks, Brad. :D

psmith2.0

2004-05-27, 07:51

See, torifile and EDS66 seem to get it. :)

Could you imagine the outrage - deservedly so, I guess - if I were to call for "a law" that mandated forced sterilization on a crack whore or meth-head who've pumped out more than three children, with those three children being undernourished, not properly cared for, maybe a father not in the picture, etc.

:(

I'd be raked over the coals by some of you!

:D

Well, take that outrage and flip it around...that's how I felt reading the first few posts in this thread. A little context...

Somewhere between the debauched "anything goes" crowd and the hyper-sensitive, statue breast-covering clowns is where I like to reside.

BurningWheel

2004-05-27, 14:06

See, torifile and EDS66 seem to get it. :)

Could you imagine the outrage - deservedly so, I guess - if I were to call for "a law" that mandated forced sterilization on a crack whore or meth-head who've pumped out more than three children, with those three children being undernourished, not properly cared for, maybe a father not in the picture, etc.

no i couldn't. some people should be sterilized. i seem to recall a case reently where the court was trying to get a women sterilized. i'll have to find a link and post it later. you should have to pass an intelligence test to have kids :D

Heck, in China, you can only have one kid, it's the law, granted they have population issues, but i think there should be a limit to 5 kids in the US

no offense intended pscates2.0, but reasoning with you is like reasoning with a brick wall http://home.comcast.net/~loststar/images/emoticons/banghead.gif :D therefore i'm done with this topic :P

Naderfan

2004-05-27, 14:14

I'd be worried if the children were malnourished, dressed in rags, and being forced to work in factories or something like that, but from the article, it seems fine to me. Western Europe and the U.S. are struggling with low, to no, to negative birth rates (I think Japan is to) so it's not really like we're overbreeding (even though we do use up most of the resources, but I don't think that has anything to do with our numbers, just our attitudes) and it seems these kids are getting a good life. I've always been a bit suspicious of home schooling, but if they live in Arkansas, they're probably better off than if they went to public schools. (I think that state is 49th in education.) The only problem I forsee is finding names for all of them. I mean, Jinger? I have never understood why parents think it's so special to have all of their children's names begin with the same letter. But the important fact is that government has no right to interfere with personal liberties like this, except in extreme cases. The example of the HIV positive woman who wants to keep having children is a good point. And if there is proof that the children are being abused or uncared for, then the gov. may get involved. But just because it's a large number? No case.

murbot

2004-05-27, 16:00

The Monty Python thing... an old hag is doing dishes, when a baby falls out of her and hits the floor. She lets out a gruff "pick that up, will ya?" and continues with her chores.

heh

thegelding

2004-05-27, 16:22

"There are Jews in the world, there are Buddists,
There are Hindus and Mormons and then
There are those that follow Mohammad, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six footer,
You don't have to have a great brain,
You don't have to have any clothes on,
You're a Catholic the moment Dad came, because

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs,
On the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Morman,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Every sperm is useful,
Every sperm is fine,
God needs everybody's,
Mine, and mine, and mine.

Let the pagans spill theirs,
O'er mountain, hill and plain.
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate."

great scene

personally i don't think we need to go around overpopulating the world, but eh, what can you do...

it does make me think of the line groucho marx made that got him kicked off live tv...

woman on show: "i have 19 children"
groucho: "19 children? Why do you have so many children?"
woman on show: "well, i love my husband."
groucho: "lady, i love my cigar, but i take it out of my mouth once and a while."

or something close to that...

g

SonOfSylvanus

2004-05-27, 17:29

<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~loststar/images/emoticons/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="" />

OT :( BurningWheel, how do you do that banging-head-on-wall smilie?

dmz

2004-05-27, 18:02

America needs people who are willing to f**k to save their species.

(negative birth rates are not sustainable)