have my cake and eat it too (new Mac purchase)

[Personette]

I need to buy a new computer. After a brief and unfortunate foray into the world of PCs, I'm returning to mac. I'm hoping for some guidance about what to buy - I have two competing needs and I'm not sure how to meet them both.

(1) I don't want to spend too much money. Definitely under $2000, preferably under $1500. Less is better.

(2) I like to play 3-D graphics intensive online games. I'd like to be able to play the mainstream ones in a few years, with the computer I buy now.

I don't care if it's a laptop or a desktop. I'm thinking of buying refurbished - wouldn't be surprised if that's the best option. Actually, that's about it.

What computer will meet my needs best?

[PB PM]

Honestly, there isn't a Mac that can meet your needs, based upon the price range. The iMacs, the only machine in your price range, have ATI Radeon 2600XT or Pro graphics cards, which are okay for older games and get by on newer games, but in a few years they wont be able to handle the games that come out, other than at very low settings.

Your best option would be either a cheap gaming rig, or a console for gaming along side a Mac.

[Personette]

Well...you're wrong at least partially, because I've seen refurbished MacBooks and refurbished iMacs with newer NVIDIA game cards in them for under $1500.

Or what if I bought a new iMac...can I update the game card in a year? Or is that not going to be possible?

[bassplayinMacFiend]

That's not going to be possible. Currently, the only Mac with a replaceable video card is the Mac Pro, which starts at $2300 without monitor.

[Yonzie]

What PB PM said. It's the unfortunate reality. It's the price you pay for the Mac experience.
At least we can hope for the situation to change, although it's quite unlikely.

The graphics card in the iMac is theoretically replaceable, although you will have an unbelievably hard time finding a compatible replacement.
The graphics card is designed to be able to be changed, but it's a special kind for laptops, and you are not likely to find one to buy that's not wrapped in a laptop.
If you manage that, you need to flash the graphics card with special firmware for it to work in a Mac...
Then it needs to be a kind that has supported drivers for Mac.

[Personette]

So what's the cheapest thing I can buy, that will last the longest?

I don't think that I'm going to find exactly what I want - hence the title of the thread - I realize I'm going to have to compromise somehow. I'm just trying to figure out what the best compromise would be.

[Yonzie]

You didn't write what you'd use it for besides gaming, so it's a bit hard to suggest something.
I'd probably pick a refurb 20" iMac and a PS3.

[Personette]

Most of what I do with my computer is basic, ordinary stuff - I don't use it at work, I don't need to travel with it, etc. I have lots of music, I watch DVDs, I waste time on the internet and word-process. The only thing I do that stretches the capacities of a computer is play online games, sometimes while also running several other applications.

I'm not interested in buying a gaming console of any kind - I play one MMORPG right now that I like and I want to be prepared in case I decide to switch to a different one in the future. Since it's by far the most demanding thing I do with my computer, I figure it's a good benchmark to use when picking a new one.

[Luca]

Gaming and Macs simply do not mix. For $1500, you could get a midrange iMac that has a ho-hum Radeon HD2600 Pro, a graphics card that was midrange a year ago. Nowadays, it's pretty low end, and I wouldn't count on it being able to keep up with new games for very long (maybe up to 18 months from now). With the newer games, you'll have to turn the settings down lower and lower.

Then again, if you stay with the same game for a while, you should be okay. Obviously, performance won't get worse over time, it just seems that way because newer games are more demanding.

Really, though, if you want good quality gaming, don't get a Mac. They suck for gaming. Apple simply doesn't configure them to be able to handle it. The same is true for most pre-built PCs as well. Companies aren't giving computers even mediocre gaming hardware until you get into the $1200 range, even though it's easy to build a computer that stomps on any Mac short of the Mac Pro for half that.

Here's what it boils down to - gaming performance is determined by a lot of factors, but the only important one today is the graphics card. All the other components in all modern computers are so fast that they handle gaming just fine. Gaming-grade video cards range in price from $50 for the really low end ones (like the one in the $1200 iMac), to $150 for solid performers like the GeForce 8800GT, and up to $300 or $400 for the total overkill cards that get you maybe a 30 or 40% performance increase despite costing 2-3 times as much as lower end cards. Obviously, what you want is one of those $150 cards. Problem is, companies don't want you to be able to just add $150 and get good gaming performance. They want to charge you a whole lot extra just to get the option of using one of those cards, so even though a $500 computer with a $150 video card will handle modern games just fine, you have to actually spend closer to $1000 to get that. If you go through a computer company, that is.

The PC homebrew market is where it's at. You can configure a computer just how you want it and get a good performer for $600 ($800 including a monitor). Problem is, you have to build it yourself.

So you see the problem facing PC gamers. Tech-savvy people just throw together a PC and are done with it, but other people have to spend a lot more on buying a pre-made system that costs more and gives worse performance. Apple is no different - you have to spend $1950 to get a Mac with an 8800-series video card, and even then, it's the 8800GS, which is the low end version that sells for $120 at any online computer store.

LONG STORY SHORT: All computer companies (not just Apple) screw you on price/performance, if you want to play PC games for cheap over a long period of time, build your own. Otherwise, be prepared to open the ol' wallet.

If you are interested in building your own, read this (http://arstechnica.com/guides/buyer/guide-200805.ars/2).

[Mugge]

Aie! Edit.

Didn't see Luca's link.

+1 for the Ars system guide. You could add a Mac Mini via a KVM switch if you still want a Mac also.

[Personette]

Well...I have had a PC for the past couple of years and I loathe it. I bought the PC because it was cheaper than a comparable Mac and I made the price compromise - but it was a bad idea, and I have regretted it ever since. No more PCs for me.

I'm not at all tech-savvy, and I think a trained monkey would do a better job building a computer than I would.

So...I guess that means I will pick the mac that I want, and forget about gaming. I was kind of hoping there would be a better answer.

[Robo]

Mac mini + built PC would seem to fit you best.

Although if you're only worried about MMORPGs, like WoW, you should be just fine with an iMac...MMORPGs are pretty much never as graphics-intensive as "non-massive" games. The 24" iMac comes with a better graphics card (and of course, a better screen, &c.) for under $2k.

[Luca]

MMORPGs are indeed less demanding than shooters, and they don't need the high framerates that shooters require either. So an iMac is an okay compromise. But don't get any illusions about gaming for several years with it. Sure, if you stick to WoW it'll get great performance as long as you just stay with WoW and don't try to load up a more demanding MMORPG. It should also run some of the newer, more demanding ones. But I wouldn't count on it giving you excellent performance in a brand new MMO in two years' time.

Which games are you interested in, by the way? Knowing which ones you like would help a lot.

Finally, are you planning on installing Windows via BootCamp? It'll make gaming better for you. You'll get better performance, faster patches, and a much, much wider selection.

[Kraetos]

Welcome to AN :)

I see you've met Luca, our resident heathen ;) He's very correct, though, about buying a Mac to game: you'll pay too much and not get enough. They're great for just about everything else, but they still are not a value proposition for the gamer.

Before I continue, it's also worth mentioning that Robo is wise beyond his years :p If you're only playing older MMOs, the middle iMac + Boot Camp would do nicely. But if you venture into current games, upcoming games, shooters, and just more graphically intense games in general, you're in for some trouble.

Anyway, as I understand the circumstances, you

- have $2000 to spend, but less is always good
- don't feel comfortable building a PC
- are sick of Windows (hear hear :D)
- play MMORPGs
- want to be able to play future games as they come out
- are fine with a desktop machine

You have two main options, then:

- Get a single, powerful iMac and install Boot Camp

or

- Get a mini and use what's left for a PC, monitor, keyboard, mouse, and KVM switch

As for the first option:

You're going to want the 24" iMac (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?ncto=iMac&aa=6F96A5E3&mco=MTM4MTk) with the upgraded 8800 GS GPU. $1,949.

And the second option:

Baseline Mac Mini. (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?ncto=Macmini&aa=BE48DF68&mco=MTQ2NjY) n.b.: the mini is not expandable in any way, shape, or form, lest you void your warranty and get your hands dirty. Not even the RAM, so you might wanna go for 2 GB now.

Then, you're going to need a PC. I'd strongly suggest you build one to save a chunk of change, and having done it myself, it's not as difficult as you might think. Find a friend and a how to, and you should be fine.

Barring that, you should find a cheap PC and put your own GPU in. I personally despise buying brand name PCs. For all the reasons Luca mentioned above, and then some. I like to know exactly where each part came from because in a cheap PC, odds are, the parts that don't make the headline came from the lowest bidder. I don't like having to deal with a preloaded operating system, either. These days you're probably paying extra for Vista, which you don't want. Worse still, that PC is going to come loaded with crapware so the manufacturer can subsidize the price of having to pay for a Windows license. You can't always just wipe using the discs that came with it (or even using retail XP discs), because then you'll be driverless, at which point you'll have to use the manufacturers CD to install the drivers, which will also install the crapware, leaving you back where you started.

I offer these links with no personal endorsement, and purely as a convenience. They are highly rated on NewEgg, which is typically how I choose my hardware. I'd suggest shopping around NewEgg yourself; their prices are low and their shipping is fast.

- Cheap PC. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883103128)
- EVGA nVidia 8800GT (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130319)
- LG 20" Monitor for $219 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824005096) or Acer 20" Monitor for $199 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009108). I list both because, while the Acer is both cheaper and higher rated, I have one and don't like it. The stand is awkward, it makes a very annoying high pitched whine for the first few seconds after you turn it on, and something about the colors on the screen bother me: too washed out. Sorry I can't be any more specific than that. It's only a $20 difference, so that ones up to you. I don't own the LG, and am only going off NewEgg reviews, which are normally right. If you read through the reviews for that monitor, you'll hear the same complaints I'm listing. Most of them have simply decided that $199 for a 20" widescreen is worth the niggles mentioned above.
- If you don't have a keyboard and mouse already, you can use this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812199008) to use the one that came with the Acer. The modifier keys will throw you off, but it'll work.
- KVM switch. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817399020) Again, feel free to browse, but that one looks good because it's compact and all the necessary cables are built in.
- JBL Speakers. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16836101013) At $40, they're a good value. Go to any Apple Store, they have floor units.

That's about all you'll need. $600 + $529 + $215 + $210±10 + $150 + $40= ~$1,800.

If you go the build-a-box route, the Ars system guide is the bible.

Hope this helped, and good luck :)

[veryamusing]

What computer will meet my needs best?

So what's the cheapest thing I can buy, that will last the longest?
...
I'm just trying to figure out what the best compromise would be.

Welcome to the forum, Personette! We're glad you're here.

I think you've received quality advice thus far, so I'll just add that I think you'd be best off picking up a refurbished base model 20" aluminum iMac. Aside from gaming, the things you said you need/want to use it for are not intensive, and would be well served by an iMac. If you're willing to splurge a little, choose the 24", but don't let yourself get ripped off upgrading the RAM through Apple.

For what it's worth, I have a 15" PowerBook G4 / 1.67 GHz / 1 GB RAM / 100 GB HD (circa 2005) and use it in much the same way you're planning to use your new computer, and it does fine. When I use my parents' base model 20" aluminum iMac, I can't honestly tell that it's *that much* faster (perhaps I'm just not perceptive). In essence, choosing an iMac isn't much of a compromise at all.

:err:

Eh, good luck and I hope this helped.

:)

[Eugene]

The HD2600 Pro/XT is just fine for most games like WoW which is itself 4 years old. I definitely wouldn't have an issue playing my current crop of games on it. (I only play CS:S with any sort of frequency now)

With that in mind, I think 24" iMac with 8800 GS upgrade is the best option and will be futureproof enough for your needs.

[Personette]

Thanks for all your replies everyone - there's no perfect answer for me, but at least I know what I'm getting into, all the positives and negatives. That really helps.

[almost2mac]

You probably aren't going to be happy if you play Crysis, but I have a 20" aluminum iMac with the one price bump up to get the 256 meg video card (not the 8800 mentioned above, which is only on the high-end 24"). I paid $1500, I think with the recent refresh the machine I have with a slightly faster processor is $1200 or so. Get memory for it too - I run 3 gigs, you can go up to 4. Memory is cheap DON'T BUY FROM APPLE.

Age of Conan runs very well in Bootcamp XP with some graphics slider tweaking and still looks great with glow and fog effects. WoW will run on anything (including OSX). Many companies have declared they are going to include Mac as a viable gaming platform, and this iMac is probably the spec they're going to be aiming at for the current crop of games. We're getting Spore and a lot of other things.

I resigned to buying a 360 for hardcore shooters; Bioshock and HL2 are great on it.