View Full Version : How stable are Hackintoshes?
My mom needs a new computer. She's currently using a Power Mac G4 with a dual 1.7 GHz upgrade chip, but it's just too old and slow for her. She uses Illustrator and Photoshop for her work.
Here's the problem. She's been a Mac user her whole life and isn't particularly good with computers. So she can't use Windows. But it also means that her only option is to buy a Mac desktop (she doesn't want or need portability), and Mac desktops are really overpriced. She doesn't have a very large budget and my brother and I are debating whether we could build her a Hackintosh instead. Obviously, the hardware cost is much lower. Not only that, but since we can get much faster hardware for less money, she won't have to upgrade as often either. The only issue we're worried about is stability. Because she's not very computer savvy, we'd have to set everything up for her and then hope that it all stays together well.
We could pretty easily put together a system using the most stable components. My brother and I both live reasonably nearby, so we could provide tech support if it's necessary. If the only tough part is actually installing the OS, then we should be fine. If there are difficulties in running it, then it might not be a great option.
Hackintoshes are not good for that type of user at all. You need to install tons of drivers yourself, after every upgrade, and stability is always in question. To get stability you need to get specific parts (ones that Apple supports), which could mean spending just as much as getting a Mac Mini.
alcimedes
2009-07-24, 12:31
I assume then she has a nice monitor? If not the iMacs are actually pretty solid machines.
I'd also recommend against the hackintosh route, unless you're going to do all the OS upgrades yourself on a weekend to fix the drivers etc.
Well like I said, my brother and I would set the whole thing up for her and we could probably come out and install updates for her as needed (OS X point updates only come out once every couple months anyway). The question is more related to how stable it is for day-to-day use, not whether it makes financial sense. Remember, my brother and I are both used to using Windows every day so we're not scared of installing drivers. Our only real concern is that it might be unstable during normal use when we can't get out there.
It's not like the specific components that are most stable cost so much more. Even if we do spend as much as we would on a Mini, it would be hugely faster and therefore last longer before needing an upgrade.
I use iMac for my work and it has been great so I don't see why she can't use iMac. In case where monitor is set in the stone, you could look into getting a used PM... This one is selling Intel for $1,500 (http://www.macofalltrades.com/Apple_Intel_Xeon_2x_2_0GHz_Dual_Core_Mac_Pro_p/icdx20mp1.htm) while G5 PM are selling for ~$600-$900.
Come to think of it, I *think* the Intel iMac supports spanning so you can still hook it up to the monitor for the extra space.
I personally wouldn't want to work using a hackintosh. As a hobby, maybe, but not on the clock, definitely.
alcimedes
2009-07-24, 14:12
Under those conditions then it would probably be doable. I haven't been following them as closely as I could, but my understanding is if they're built with the same parts that Apple uses, they're pretty solid day to day.
The cleanest Hackintosh install would use an EFI-X USB dongle. For the most part it'll run transparently just as any Mac would, major system updates and all. Occasionally you'll have to firmware update the EFI-X module, but that is simple to do too.
But really, just get a Mac.
Gargoyle
2009-07-24, 14:26
The price of a Mac might be higher, but the cost is lower!
The thing is it's not just the day-to-day operations but the possibility of getting hosed by some bug or updates that breaks the functionality and losing money because you couldn't work. If it was just a hobby computer or maybe something to use for surfing & emailing, then well, sure. But to do work on it? No, thanks.
A Hackintosh is, well, a hack. Great if you're inclined to tinker around, absolutely irrecommendable "she's not very computer savvy" type.
The cleanest Hackintosh install would use an EFI-X USB dongle. For the most part it'll run transparently just as any Mac would, major system updates and all. Occasionally you'll have to firmware update the EFI-X module, but that is simple to do too.
I've thought about that too. It's around $200, which actually isn't that much, depending on what sort of system I'm thinking of building. When I first saw the EFI-X, I thought it would be vaporware, but it looks like they really do exist.
Might be worth it given the price difference between off-the-shelf parts vs. pre-built Macs. Adding an EFI-X would probably increase the cost of the system to about equal to an iMac, but it would still be faster and have more internal expansion than an iMac. But I'd have to run some numbers and figure out the actual cost of building a system.
I think the need to need for me or my brother to do all the software updating on an OSx86 Hackintosh is probably reason enough for us to stay away from that. It's attractive for the low price, and it might make sense if we only needed a temporary and very low-cost solution (such as if her computer died tomorrow and she could only spare a few hundred bucks for a new one), but in the long run an EFI-X or just a regular Apple Mac would be a better solution.
thegeriatric
2009-07-24, 14:48
Used Mac mini, if you already have mouse, monitor and keyboard.
Used Mac mini, if you already have mouse, monitor and keyboard.
So I can spend $500 on that when I could instead spend $500 building an entry-level quad-core system that would completely own any Mac Mini and would have a useful amount of internal storage and RAM. Add a $200 EFI-X on top of that and $700 ought to buy a machine that will run with the $2000, 3.06 GHz iMac.
See, this is why I really don't want to buy a Mac. Even I think they make pretty good laptops, but their desktops are all a rip off.
turbulentfurball
2009-07-24, 15:06
So I can spend $500 on that when I could instead spend $500 building an entry-level quad-core system that would completely own any Mac Mini and would have a useful amount of internal storage and RAM. Add a $200 EFI-X on top of that and $700 ought to buy a machine that will run with the $2000, 3.06 GHz iMac.
See, this is why I really don't want to buy a Mac. Even I think they make pretty good laptops, but their desktops are all a rip off.
Would your mom even need a quad-core system that would 'completely own' any Mac Mini? Seems like a Mini would be ideal.
I believe it would help her based on the software she uses; furthermore, it would allow the computer to last longer without needing an upgrade.
alcimedes
2009-07-24, 15:22
Why wouldn't he?
It's easier to upgrade down the line in almost every way. Easier to add RAM, easier to add more storage, you can swap out the video card etc.
No reason not to if you're comfortable building one.
Let me know how it goes if you go that route Luca, I'm still tempted to build one myself. :)
The biggest problem I ran into was graphics drivers when I installed OSX on my PC. It was impossible to get resolution higher than 1024x768.
Yeah I'm thinking at this point I'll either go with EFI-X or just tell her to buy a Mac. It would be nice if my brother or I had an Intel-based system so we could get a better idea of how well OS X runs on a Hackintosh, but we don't have quite the right hardware for testing and I'm also just sort of put off by the idea of having to provide all the tech support for my mom, for as long as she has the machine. I figure an extra $150-$200 for an EFI-X would be worth it for all involved (and I believe I'd still be able to build a great computer for cheaper than an iMac even with the cost of an EFI-X factored in).
Everything I've read about the EFI-X says that it's a pretty seamless solution - as long as you use a supported motherboard, it's basically the same as having a Mac. That appeals to me because she wouldn't have to turn off Software Update or anything.
I'm looking at building a Hack right now too. I've got a i7 920 and DX58SO sitting next to me in a box right now. Still not sure if I'm going to make it the Win7 Ultimate system Intel intended me to or make it a Mac.
I'm glad to see this thread moving toward actually helping you build the hack rather than convince you why you shouldn't. I'll let you know if I move forward with mine too and how it works out.
Luca, if you and your brother are comfortable providing tech support, go for the hackintosh. Not sure what your relationship is with your mother, but if it's a good one, you won't be dreading the out-of-the-air-help-her-troubleshoot- a-problem- on-a-friday-night scenario than if you can barely stand her. Also gives you an excuse to spend some quality time with her AND a cool machine :)
A little off topic, but I'm just wondering: is building a desktop hackintosh easier to do compared to building a netbook hackintosh? I know the Dell Mini hackintosh community is very active in making the hackintoshing experience as easy as possible.
Desktop hackintoshs are a little harder to work with than notebooks if anything as notebook parts tend to be more uniform.
Luca, if you and your brother are comfortable providing tech support, go for the hackintosh. Not sure what your relationship is with your mother, but if it's a good one, you won't be dreading the out-of-the-air-help-her-troubleshoot- a-problem- on-a-friday-night scenario than if you can barely stand her. Also gives you an excuse to spend some quality time with her AND a cool machine :)
A little off topic, but I'm just wondering: is building a desktop hackintosh easier to do compared to building a netbook hackintosh? I know the Dell Mini hackintosh community is very active in making the hackintoshing experience as easy as possible.
As a member of the netbook hackintosh club I can tell you that it's easier because the hardware is the same across the line as PB PM said. With desktops and such you have to get the right components and put them together. Take the Dell Mini 10 and 10v for example. The 10 just doesn't work right now. The chipset isn't right. The 10v and A90 work fine with a little DellEFI hack right out of the box.
ShadowOfGed
2009-07-24, 22:27
So I can spend $500 on that when I could instead spend $500 building an entry-level quad-core system that would completely own any Mac Mini and would have a useful amount of internal storage and RAM. Add a $200 EFI-X on top of that and $700 ought to buy a machine that will run with the $2000, 3.06 GHz iMac.
See, this is why I really don't want to buy a Mac. Even I think they make pretty good laptops, but their desktops are all a rip off.
Pack your Hackintosh, complete with display, into the iMac form factor and then we'll talk.
Seriously. It's not about the parts; you can't pack desktop-rated components into a case that size. They're using laptop parts, which are more expensive. It also has a display, which your Hackintosh wouldn't (from the sound of it). Just because the costs are for features you don't want/need doesn't make them a ripoff. They're still real costs.
But really they're fine.. ;)
Pack your Hackintosh, complete with display, into the iMac form factor and then we'll talk.
Seriously. It's not about the parts; you can't pack desktop-rated components into a case that size. They're using laptop parts, which are more expensive. It also has a display, which your Hackintosh wouldn't (from the sound of it). Just because the costs are for features you don't want/need doesn't make them a ripoff. They're still real costs.
I understand entirely. So you're right, "rip-off" is too harsh a term. Still, the end result is the same - you pay $2,000 for a system that has a dual-core, 3.06 GHz CPU and a 24" LCD despite being able to build or buy a similar (if less elegant) system for half the price. Apple, unfortunately, doesn't offer something like that, because it's not as slick and cool. But that's not worth an extra $500 or $1000 to me, and it's definitely not worth extra to my mother. For some people, it is worth it to spend that much extra for something sleek and simple like that, but not everyone.
Yeah, but does your mom really need a Quad either? Unless she is encoding video all day, I highly doubt she needs more than a Mac Mini type system, which will be fine for years.
Dorian Gray
2009-07-25, 13:30
I'd also go with an iMac, though really, she should be making the decision (with tech info from you if needed). A few hundred dollars here or there won't make much difference over the life of the machine, but an iMac is a heck of a lot nicer to work with in daily use than any hackintosh (which would also be against the terms of the EULA, obviously).
I'd also go with an iMac, though really, she should be making the decision (with tech info from you if needed). A few hundred dollars here or there won't make much difference over the life of the machine, but an iMac is a heck of a lot nicer to work with in daily use than any hackintosh (which would also be against the terms of the EULA, obviously).
I did talk to her about it earlier today and told her about the possibility of using an EFI-X. She is definitely not going to be happy with a straight-up OSx86 Hackintosh, but I said I'd do more research into EFI-X to determine if it really is good enough to be a true replacement for a regular Mac. Some of the things I've read imply that it's practically seamless - just use supported hardware and it's good to go.
I know you all think she should just buy an iMac or a Mini. If we go the true Mac route I will keep those in mind and figure out what fits her best. The use of an EFI-X wouldn't be so much to save money (a few hundred bucks at best compared to an iMac), but to allow her to get the hardware she wants. This is basically because Apple does not offer a midrange, expandable tower anymore. She used to always buy Power Macs, back when Apple still sold Power Macs for under $2k. She likes Power Macs because she likes the ability to add stuff. When I told her we could perhaps get generic hardware running in such a way that she could update the computer herself and add hardware like extra hard drives, she seemed very interested, and not dismissive at all. She also seemed put off by the fact that the Mini comes with such a small internal hard drive (she archives all her work and is running low on hard drive space). I did make sure to tell her that she would not be able to go to Apple for support and that we'd have to use manufacturer warranties if anything broke, so that will be part of her decision.
I will still keep the Mac option on the table, and if we do go that route I will probably recommend a base-model Mini, since it can be upgraded more than the iMac (I could install 4 GB of RAM and a 500 GB hard drive for her, which would help her out). But I'm really more interested in seeing how well EFI-X works because it would fit her needs better. And while a Mini might be enough for her, it's still just a 2 GHz dual core... I could build a 2.5 GHz dual core system right now for $350, or a 3.0 GHz one for $450.
PKIDelirium
2009-07-25, 14:06
Yeah but that clock speed difference isn't going to matter much with a C2D.
Dorian Gray
2009-07-25, 14:10
I know you could build a dirt-cheap system with more grunt than a Mac mini, but there's clearly more to using a computer than CPU speed, especially if you use it for hours a day for work. Noise and reliability would be high on my list of concerns. You can build a very quiet and reliable PC too, of course, but that's where $100 power supplies and $50 fans come in - not exactly practical in a $350 machine.
Personally, I wouldn't use a hackintosh because of the EULA issue alone (neither do I use any pirated software). Have you informed your mother about the EULA?
By the way, I agree that Apple makes it difficult for people who want a powerful desktop machine. The iMac needs a quad-core CPU, but there's nothing on the horizon there as far as I know.
The EULA issue doesn't bother me as long as we're buying a copy of OS X. I don't think EULAs carry much legal weight anyway. I certainly wouldn't feel morally wrong for breaking an EULA if the copy of OS X was legally purchased and installed to just one machine. I will not let her pirate a copy of OS X (she wouldn't even know how).
I see other factors that so many Mac users hold dear to their hearts (sleekness, "cool factor," noise level, industrial design) as being "nice-to-have" features. They are not necessary and I wouldn't pay a ton extra or sacrifice more important things (such as upgrade potential and storage capacity) for a machine that does have them. It would be under her desk anyway.
Oh well. I think I'm just going to have to hit up some places to get some more information on the EFI-X and how well it works. This won't happen for a little while anyway, and it might not happen at all. And I think one of the contributing factors to my interest in it is that my brother and I are both hardware junkies who simply don't agree with the principle of spending so much money on what we see as old, low-end hardware. But it is true that a midrange Mac tower costing about the same as an iMac would be a great fit for her.
Luca, I've been researching the EFI-X for a while now and the new operators of the USA sector are much better than the previous ones that got shut down for making clones available. I've been planning to put together a system and house it in the G4 Yikes shell that I have kicking around. I probably won't get around to it until this winter though. Or at least until the Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2 specs become official. :)
I see other factors that so many Mac users hold dear to their hearts (sleekness, "cool factor," noise level, industrial design) as being "nice-to-have" features. They are not necessary and I wouldn't pay a ton extra or sacrifice more important things (such as upgrade potential and storage capacity) for a machine that does have them. It would be under her desk anyway.
Doesn't bother me, my PC is in a cheapo $30 case with three case fans (each one was $5-10 bucks) and it is quieter than our old G3/G4 systems that only had one fan . Could careless about the cool factor, for my the issue is more whether or not you'll have issues with the Hackintosh.
What if there comes a time (maybe not too long from now) that the EFI-X doesn't work anymore? Do you keep buying a newer one? You asked about stability, and that was why I recommended an actual Mac over the Hackintosh. What if there comes a time when you and your brother cannot provide tech support, your mum would be up a creek without a paddle! I would turn my PC into a Hackintosh right now if I thought it would be stable enough, since the hardware I have would make a sweet photo editing tower, over my MBP, not to mention the ability to throw three or four 1TB drives!
turbulentfurball
2009-07-25, 15:23
Oh well. I think I'm just going to have to hit up some places to get some more information on the EFI-X and how well it works. .
Thing about EFI-X here (http://ow.ly/htv5) about 10 minutes in. It seems so very seemless, but I'd worry that Apple would try to break it in 10.6 or a point update. They're bound to be aware of its existence. I'd do it myself if the damn thing wasn't so expensive.
ThunderPoit
2009-07-25, 15:33
I built mine a few months back
Found a motherboard that was mostly compatible (gigabyte ep45-ud3r)
Found a guide
installed vanilla os x retail
installed a boot loader
installed a couple extensions
changed a line in a plist to get my vid card working
havent had to think about it since
Is it a little ugly? Yes
Is it rock solid? Yes
Are there any issues? Bonjour is a bit flaky sometimes, i could fix it by getting another nic with native drivers.
It cost me less than a mac mini, has all the speed of an imac, and all the expansion of a mac pro
Once you get the right hardware, its nowhere near the support nightmare that people can make it out to be.
I don't think it would be something they'd break via software, but they could make firmware requirement changes.
Extremely stable given one takes the time to research the hardware first. I rebooted yesterday for the first time in about 3 weeks. This thing with iAtkos 5i installed runs like a champion! The way the system is set-up, updates cannot possibly break the system. Noice!
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