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Dorian Gray
2009-08-01, 18:51
But which one?

I need to replace my 12-inch PowerBook. Can't afford a MacBook Pro right now, and it's a little too large and heavy for everyday mobility anyway, in my opinion. If I already had a nice Mac I'd just buy a true netbook, but I'm going to wait for the Nehalem Macs. That means this computer will have to serve as my sole computer in the meantime, so it must be capable of editing photos comfortably. This rules out many netbooks (including all with a 1GB memory limit, such as the otherwise nice Sony VAIO W). It must also be reliable and portable.

Thus my requirements, in roughly descending order of importance:

Not much more than half the price of a 13-inch MBP. Above that, the savings compared to a MBP are too small to justify the compromises.
Minimum screen resolution: 1280 or wider by 768 or taller.
Good engineering throughout. Stiff, solid thermals, quiet.
Must be mobile. For me that means tough, light, small footprint. Thinness and long battery life are less important (though nice).
Decent screen quality, though that's almost unheard of at this price.
Decent CPU speed, though this is where I'm willing to compromise in a big way to meet the price target.
A nice GPU would be a plus to take advantage of the ever-increasing usefulness of a good GPU for general computing (e.g. in Windows 7, which this machine will eventually run).

Intel charges a fortune for their Core 2 products (including CULV versions), while Pentium and Celeron parts are deliberately gimped and more power consuming (and still fairly expensive). So I've been concentrating my search on non-Intel options. I have to say, it quickly becomes apparent why Intel charges so much for Core 2! :lol: But I'd still rather cheap out on the processor than on build quality or light weight.

Here's the HP Pavilion dv2:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8793/hpdv2black.jpg

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4933/hpdv2white.jpg

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8550/hpdv2side.jpg

Slim, with a 12-inch display. Fairly light at 1.62-1.73 kg (3.57-3.81 lb) depending on which HP site you believe. Incredibly strong: I gave the base of one a stern twist and it's roughly as stiff as a 13-inch MacBook Pro, which is astonishingly rare in the PC world (the lid is nowhere near as stiff, though). The 1280 x 800 screen is bright and colourful but lacks contrast (measured at less than 200:1 in reviews, so similar to the first unibody MacBook but well below the ~800:1 of today's MBP models).

Here are the specs for a few of the versions:

Original dv2 models in the UK (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/uk/en/ho/WF25a/321957-321957-3329744-64354-64354-3873767.html), a few months old now.

New models for the UK. (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/uk/en/ho/WF25a/321957-321957-3329744-64354-64354-3945111.html)

The new dv2z models for the US. (http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/store_access.do?template_type=series_detail&category=notebooks&series_name=dv2z_series)

The ones in my price range are the old £449 model (ATI X1250 graphics), and perhaps the new £499 model with HD 3410 graphics and an HDMI port - but also saddled with a heavier six-cell battery and more heat output from the dedicated graphics. From my research, the single-core models seem to be about one-quarter as fast as a MacBook, while the HD 3410 is roughly equal to the GeForce 9400M. The X1250 is about twice as fast as Intel's GMA 950.

Any opinions on these machines? Watch this ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gJC9jLClHg), preferably in HD. Are you a sucker for this kind of marketing like I am? :o :D

I'm also considering the Samsung NC20 (http://www.mhgdesign.co.uk/samsungnetbooks/) (choose the NC20 on that page):

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/351/samsungnc20angle.jpg

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3659/samsungnc20floating.jpg

This is less solid (no real metal in the chassis), but slightly lighter at 1.5 kg (3.3 lb), slightly smaller, basically the same screen, and a slightly bigger keyboard (97% full-size versus the dv2's 92%). About £355, so cheaper than the dv2. Most interestingly, it has the VIA Nano processor, which is almost as powerful as the dv2's AMD Neo MV-40, but vastly more power efficient. Battery life is therefore much better. The NC20 also has a very quiet fan with a pleasant tone (a common feature of Samsung notebooks in my experience: Samsung clearly considers good thermals and low noise a priority in building their brand). The dv2 has a louder fan, though it's also subjectively pleasant in character (and effective at removing the copious heat produced by the stripped-down Athlon 64 and the dedicated graphics).

If I were in the US the Lenovo S12 would appeal, as it's available with the VIA Nano processor (for $50 less than the Intel Atom!). And it's also available (or soon) with the attractive NVIDIA ION platform (Atom + 9400M). Only the bog-standard Atom version seems to be available in the UK, for about £340. I haven't touched one of these, so I don't know what the build quality is like.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/7826/lenovos12.jpg

Any other machines I should consider? Or should I reconsider what I need? Anyone else thinking of being a part-time PC while waiting for Nehalem MacBooks? :)

pscates2.0
2009-08-01, 18:56
Don't do it. :o

Hell, I'd consider sending you a few hundred bucks if it prevented you from making such a ghastly, life-altering error in judgement and taste.

:p

Dorian Gray
2009-08-01, 19:06
That's more or less what my brother said. :lol: He's just bought a brand new 13-inch MacBook Pro (his first Mac, so he's blown away by everything from the packaging to the screen quality, sturdiness, battery life, etc.) after suffering with a cheap Dell for two years.

The trouble is, I really can't afford a Mac right now, and I really can't afford to wait until I can (my PowerBook is hideously slow and it's literally starting to fall apart, thanks in no small part to being dropped repeatedly in a series of accidents. :(). I figure it won't kill me to use a PC for six or nine months until I get the Mac of my dreams. I could be wrong, though. :p

Robo
2009-08-01, 19:45
Hahaha...I saw that Dorian had commented on a thread called "I'm going to be a PC!" and I was like, "Oh no, I hope Dorian isn't going to be a PC!" :lol:

Seriously Dorian, you're like the most Mac person ever. :D

That HP looks pretty sweet though. If they would have had it when I bought my crummy HP Mini I probably would have jumped for it.

Artap99
2009-08-01, 20:06
I thought you were going to be in one of the PC commercials, talking about how you want more RAM processors with your computer and think Macs are just about impressing girls.

Robo
2009-08-01, 20:10
I thought you were going to be in one of the PC commercials, talking about how you want more RAM processors with your computer and think Macs are just about impressing girls.

That's just ridiculous.





They're for impressing boys, too.

:p

joveblue
2009-08-01, 23:15
Sounds like a slightly un-wise financial decision to buy a PC just to keep for 6-9 months...

Then you'll also need to acquire photo-editing software, so that'll just add to the cost...

:/

evan
2009-08-02, 01:06
If you have the money now, get the macbook pro and then sell it when the new ones come out, you'll probably come out about even

edit: reread first line and i guess not an option... but borrow some money...

PB PM
2009-08-02, 01:57
Sounds like a slightly un-wise financial decision to buy a PC just to keep for 6-9 months...

Then you'll also need to acquire photo-editing software, so that'll just add to the cost...

:/
I agree. You'd be better of bearing with the Powerbook G4 and saving up to get a higher end MBP when you can get one.

Mugge
2009-08-02, 03:36
Have you considered a used Mac, Dorian?

If it's only temporary, I would take an old white MacBook over any PC. And then you won't need to buy any Windows software or put up with things like the Gimp. And you can always sell it off again later.

Robo
2009-08-02, 06:42
edit: reread first line and i guess not an option... but borrow some money...

Borrowing money to buy a computer is almost always Not Smart, but in this case it'd probably end up cheaper than buying a PC for six months, and then a Mac...

But Dorian might have personal reasons for not wanting to borrow money.

Or maybe he just really wants a PC. ;)

It'll be hard for a good lot of us to give you an opinion on those machines, Dorian, because Samsung notebooks aren't sold in the United States, so any hands-on comparo would have to come from your fellow Europeans. :) The HP is pretty new, too - I haven't seen it in any stores, but it looks slick, and that alloy case sounds promising.

Dorian Gray
2009-08-02, 08:33
I already have a Windows copy of Photoshop Elements and Nikon's RAW converter software (that came with my camera), which together would work okay until I get a powerful Mac (maybe with Aperture).

One reason I can't afford a Mac is that I've spent the last few years paying off student debts. I'm certainly not going to add to that debt at this point! I've also been hit with unfortunate expenses lately (bathroom flood, vacuum cleaner burned out a few days ago, emergency travel). When you live as close to the edge as I do, these kind of things rock the boat. ;)

I've also been hoping Apple would make a notebook/netbook with a 12-inch or smaller display, to no avail. My thinking is that I could buy a low-cost Windows notebook in that size, which would then free me to look at desktop Macs or bigger MBPs as a home-based machine. The Windows notebook would not be thrown out or sold within a year - just relegated to a secondary, purely mobile computer running Safari.

That said, there's a 1.6 GHz MacBook Air on Apple's refurbished shop for £749. Hmm. :D A used plastic MacBook would be 3-4x faster than the Windows notebooks I'm looking at, but heavy, bulky, and just not very strong. Apple's unibody designs have redefined my expectations from a notebook in terms of build quality.

Roboman: you can get the Samsung NC20 (black only) at Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834131031&Tpk=samsung%20nc20) for $500. Samsung notebooks aren't hugely popular here either, though I'm certainly seeing more of them in shops lately.

Robo
2009-08-02, 09:40
Roboman: you can get the Samsung NC20 (black only) at Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834131031&Tpk=samsung%20nc20) for $500. Samsung notebooks aren't hugely popular here either, though I'm certainly seeing more of them in shops lately.

Really? That's cool. I know that they just started making their netbooks (here branded "Samsung Go") available in the US, with a minor marketing push. I guess they're bringing some of their beefier portables along with them.

Choice is good. :)

And yeah, if Apple doesn't make a laptop that's compact enough for your tastes, compact Windows notebook + iMac makes a lot of sense. :) That's what lots of my friends do, and I do the same just with a Mac mini (since I already had a nice small Sony TV that happened to match the Mac mini perfectly).

I know it's probably not powerful enough for you (though it does have 2GB of RAM ;)) but I adore the Vaio P. If I was doing everything all over again, I would have skipped the HP Mini and splurged for one of those. They're so light and compact - perfect for taking with you absolutely everywhere, for writing at a moment's notice. :)

That said, that refurb MBA sounds like a deal. ;) I just couldn't live with a PC as my only machine for any length of time, I just couldn't. Well, I've had to in the past. And it sucked.

Dorian Gray
2009-08-02, 10:05
Ah, I kind of misunderstood you then, Roboman: I see you are aware that the Samsung netbooks are available in the US, and the NC20 is kind of straddling the netbook/notebook line (though Samsung classes it as a netbook).

Samsung is an interesting outfit at the moment. I dislike a lot of their products, but they're definitely trying. The Q series notebooks are reportedly pretty good (though kind of heavy and kind of expensive for what they offer), while the X series is a flat-out attempt to compete with the Air. However it leaves a lot to be desired in many respects, according to reviews. Samsung just doesn't have the attention to detail and fit-and-finish quality that comes standard with Apple products, and Sony to a lesser extent. Things like BIOS and driver updates are sorely lacking. Things don't work out of the box. Their websites are all a chronic disaster, with even the listed specs rarely matching what you get in the box. That kind of thing.

The Sony VAIO P is too weak for editing RAW photo files, and the display resolution is just too high for me. But more to the point, it costs as much as that refurbed MacBook Air, which would certainly be a better option as a sole computer.

I'll have a think over all the options and reconsider a used Mac. I can easily imagine myself being frustrated with a PC as a sole computer, even for a few months. I think I appreciate the strengths of Apple products over the competition as well as anyone. :lol:

Robo
2009-08-02, 10:35
The Sony VAIO P is too weak for editing RAW photo files, and the display resolution is just too high for me. But more to the point, it costs as much as that refurbed MacBook Air, which would certainly be a better option as a sole computer.

Too high resolution? Never! (JK. Actually, I just wish the screen was a little bit bigger; there's certainly room for a 9- or even 10-inch display. Then that resolution might be a little more appropriate.)

But yeah, I wouldn't consider it as my sole computer either. I just wanted to mention it, since we're talking about mini notebooks, and I love it so. :)

It launched at $899 in the States, cheaper than the refurb MBA, and you could get deals to bring it down to ~$799. But now it's $999, with no deals, and that's the same price as the refurb MBA is here. So I probably wouldn't really get it, any more. But I wish I had splurged for one, before, instead of the HP Mini. :(

If there's no smaller MacBooks in the cards, I think my next computer is probably going to be an MBA. I think that will be just powerful enough, and just portable enough, to act as my sole computer. Which is good, because it's the same price as an iMac + a netbook... :\

I know I don't want to cheap out on a POS netbook again. It's just not worth it.

MCQ
2009-08-02, 10:39
I was going to suggest perhaps the Lenovo IdeaPad U330 or U350, but it doesn't appear they're available in France yet.

drewprops
2009-08-02, 11:02
Can't wait to see what you get Dorian, you're doing some good shopping.

I've actually been considering getting an inexpensive PC just to use as a platform for writing. It would be nice to have something that I could actually sit in my lap without cooking my legs. This old Powerbook feels like I have a George Foreman grill in my lap. bah!!

(and I'm really not even trying to qualify for a loan from the Bank of Pscates)

...

Dorian Gray
2009-08-02, 11:33
Roboman: the Mac mini is just perfect! It will be well up my list of contenders for a Mac if I do end up getting a lightweight Windows notebook for portable use.

MCQ: the U330 and U350 are too pricey for me (if they were available here). At that price I'd rather just go with a Mac. A PC notebook will have to have a compelling weight/size AND price advantage for me to buy it.

Drewprops: the dv2 has a hot chip and hot graphics card in it. Probably not a great machine for lap use (or long battery life). The heat seems to be the most common complaint about the dv2. Almost all Windows notebooks seem to have vents in the base too (including the dv2), which impedes use on anything other than a flat, hard surface like a desk.

In researching the dv2 I've come to the conclusion that it's a pretty solid machine in most regards (though poor screen contrast), with good build quality, at a low price. The responsibility for that low price lies squarely on the shoulders of the AMD chip. It's a single-core, 1.6 GHz Athlon 64 with just 512 KB L2 cache, yet it has a 15-watt TPD. It offers just barely better performance than a good netbook, yet has a TDP almost equal to the chip in the MacBook Air (highly clocked C2D with 6 MB L2 cache). This is partly because AMD is using the Neo chips as an outlet for parts that are otherwise useless. They're parts with poor silicon performance, and thus require a fairly high voltage just to get to 1.6 GHz - the dv2 doesn't drop the voltage at idle either. AMD must be selling this part for 30 bucks or something similar. It pretty much has no redeeming features except low cost. :D

But for my specific needs I'd rather deal with a crap processor than crap build quality, as is almost universal on $500 notebooks.

Regarding heat, the MBPs with P-series C2D chips and 9400M graphics run very cool under light use. Massively cooler than my PowerBook or early MBPs.

Robo
2009-08-02, 11:51
Roboman: the Mac mini is just perfect! It will be well up my list of contenders for a Mac if I do end up getting a lightweight Windows notebook for portable use.

I love it to death. It's tiny and cute and has everything I could ever want ever. It can sit on top of my little desk next to my little TV and it never makes a sound.

I got the compact wired Apple Keyboard and this knockoff Mighty Mouse at Best Buy because I wanted a scroll wheel instead of the tiny problematic scroll ball. And everything just sits on top of the desk, with plenty of space, and everything (even the USB ports on the back!) is within reach.

It's 2 GHz, and it has 2 GB of RAM. I guess that's not super fast but it's the fastest computer I've ever had and it does everything I need it to. And it was cheap. I think the Mac mini is the most under appreciated Mac out there right now, probably because everybody's just building hackintoshes these days because they want to have their cake and eat it too. But it's a really good deal. It's just so put-together and "complete." That's a weird thing to say about a computer that doesn't come with a mouse or keyboard, but it's true.

I would trade my HP Mini in, in a second, for a computer with (as you describe) a crappier processor but better build quality. But I wouldn't change a thing about the Mac mini. It's just, like you said, perfect. :D

thegeriatric
2009-08-02, 18:49
Hackintosh netbook possible cheap GYOOST. (Get You Out Of Shit Temporary)

Now who was it that had/did that......was it you turtle2472 or somone else?

Partial
2009-08-02, 19:04
Hackintosh netbook possible cheap GYOOST. (Get You Out Of Shit Temporary)

Now who was it that had/did that......was it you turtle2472 or somone else?

Yes, it was Turtle.

Dorian Gray
2009-08-07, 21:03
HP put the price of the new HD 3410-equipped model up to £529 (from £499 in my original post). Before it was even in stock anywhere!

The more I think about this the more doubtful I am about spending that much money on something with about one-quarter the processing power of an entry-level MacBook. It sure would be nice to have a properly fast computer for photo editing. But if I somehow stretch to a Mac now I couldn't possibly dump it when Nehalem arrives. At the very least, my girlfriend would have a fit. :lol:

I just saw a current 13-inch MacBook Pro added to the Apple refurbished store for £749. It lasted about 15 minutes before someone snapped it up (at 3 am UK time?!). Doubt I'll get a chance like that again in the next few days (and it has to be in the next few days because I'm going to the UK next weekend, when I'll pick up whatever I get).

Hmm.

turtle
2009-08-07, 23:29
Hackintosh netbook possible cheap GYOOST. (Get You Out Of Shit Temporary)

Now who was it that had/did that......was it you turtle2472 or somone else?

Yep, it's me. I use a Dell Mini 9 which can now only be had as a refurb or a Vostro A90. I understand the Mini 10v is the same hardware and works well as a Mac, but the resolution changed and dropped a few more pixels vertically making it even harder to reach the lower selections on some windows. Still a good machine as a secondary though the keyboard does take some getting used to. :rolleyes:

dmegatool
2009-08-07, 23:39
Yep, it's me. I use a Dell Mini 9 which can now only be had as a refurb or a Vostro A90.

Mini 9 is back
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=DNCOXM2&s=dhs

turtle
2009-08-07, 23:42
Cool. Not as many options as before, but at least you can have 1024x600 with that one. :)

Dorian Gray
2009-08-08, 08:00
The hackintosh route isn't really my style, though I'm not bothered by others doing it.

I can't really make up my mind here. Will the early Nehalem notebooks (Mac) change the game? I'm not sure. AnandTech seems to think so. If Apple drops NVIDIA graphics in the 13-inch models, relying on the on-die Intel graphics instead, then graphics performance could conceivably go backwards (as it did when the MacBook with its glorious GMA 950 replaced the iBook).

The current NVIDIA 9400 chipset and P-series Core 2 Duo platform is also amazingly power-efficient at idle, and great under heavy load too. Will early Nehalems be much better? Could they be worse, initially?

Nehalem does signal the return of hyper-threading, which can extract maximum effort from the available execution resources on the CPU - an attractive proposition on a notebook. Turbo Boost is also an elegant solution to improving performance within the thermal limits of the moment (VIA does this with the Nano to good effect).

If I somehow stretch to a 13-inch MacBook or MBP I'll probably be stuck with it for a while. There are also a few vague rumours floating around about a nice iMac upgrade soon, maybe with something novel like Blu-ray or USB 3.0 or even Nehalem.

A decision would be much easier if I knew nothing about tech. My brother got a 13-inch MBP a couple of weeks ago and is absolutely delighted. He won't even be aware of Nehalem until he goes looking for a new computer in three years or whatever. :lol:

Dorian Gray
2009-08-08, 10:03
I just spent some time on the Apple website looking at the 13-inch MacBook Pro. The specs and features are really amazing for the money (RAM and hard drive excepted, which are netbook-esque on the low-end model). When matched with the groundbreaking display quality and the incredible build quality, the value for money is just outstanding - if one has the money.

I don't know, maybe I could cook the books for a month. :D

Sorry for informing you of my mind's every whim and wandering. :p Take solace in the fact that I buy computers infrequently...

ronmexico
2009-08-08, 11:15
Wait, or spend the money to get a Mac. The value is there...not with a PC.

On a similar track, I can't tell you how many root canals I have to redo because someone tried to save a little money and go to the inexperienced and cheaper guy down the street. In fact, I am redoing a veneer case for a lady who spent 10K and they look like shit. Had she come to us, she would have paid just a little more and had a wonderful result and we have great customer support...sound familiar?;)

Dorian Gray
2009-08-08, 14:28
Guys, the title of this thread is disgustingly inaccurate. I've just ordered a base-model 13-inch MacBook Pro. :)

chucker
2009-08-08, 15:00
Guys, the title of this thread is disgustingly inaccurate. I've just ordered a base-model 13-inch MacBook Pro. :)

:D

Congratulations. ;)

PB PM
2009-08-08, 15:05
Oh my, good choice. :D The 13" MBP is a nice machine, I love mine and you'll like yours too, the size is great. Congrats! :) Just don't take it outside or the glare with blind you! ;)

Robo
2009-08-08, 16:24
Guys, the title of this thread is disgustingly inaccurate. I've just ordered a base-model 13-inch MacBook Pro. :)

Yay!

I think the 13-inch MacBook Pro is honestly one of the best Mac deals ever. I mean, just a year ago, for the same money you'd get a white plastic MacBook that didn't even come with the SuperDrive, much less a 9400M/illuminated keyboard/all the other goodies.

I'm sure it will serve you well. This thread is an excellent example of one of this forum's old adages - buy it when you need it. :) You can drive yourself mad waiting for what's around the corner, because it's always awesome/superlative/revolutionary.

Trumpetman
2009-08-08, 16:40
Good job! Lack of hassle is worth the price alone.

thegeriatric
2009-08-08, 18:22
Guys, the title of this thread is disgustingly inaccurate. I've just ordered a base-model 13-inch MacBook Pro. :)

Nice one.:)

Dorian Gray
2009-08-08, 19:41
I'll be on a bread and water diet for a while, but I hope it will be worth it.

Roboman, the current 13-inch MBP is undeniably a great value today. But you never know what the next revision will bring! If I could reasonably wait any longer I would. We'll see MacBook Pros with Nehalem and USB 3.0 within a year, if not at the next revision. I think those are bigger changes than the typical model revisions. But I've held out with this PowerBook for too long already. Even pscates2.0 moved to Intel long ago! :p (And I note he's got a 2.4 GHz processor. Seems like I'm destined to be one step behind him forever.)

I'm definitely looking forward to having a modern Mac with the ability to run photo software fluidly. It's not a svelte ultra-portable, and I would surely have chosen a 12-inch model if one were available, but it will work well as a main machine with mobility when needed. And it opens up the possibility of a really lightweight Snapdragon- or Tegra-powered smartbook in my future. :cancer:

thegeriatric
2009-08-08, 19:48
The trouble with waiting for the next best thing, is you'll never buy anything. :)

Robo
2009-08-08, 19:54
It's not a svelte ultra-portable, and I would surely have chosen a 12-inch model if one were available, but it will work well as a main machine with mobility when needed. And it opens up the possibility of a really lightweight Snapdragon- or Tegra-powered smartbook in my future. :cancer:

To be honest, at 4.5 lbs it's actually as light as many of the "ultra-affordable, ultra-portable" CULV optical drive-less laptops we're getting over here.

And it has an optical drive. And much better battery life, too. And it's more solid, which I know is important to you...

Apple wins at design. Forever. (Though it'll kind of suck if they replace the MacBook with a 10-inch MacBook mini next month :lol:)

Dorian Gray
2009-08-09, 08:56
The CULV notebooks are arriving in force here too. The Acer Timeline is currently the 3rd-best-selling laptop in Europe! (Not sure which model.) However, having played with the 3810T (best), 4810T and 5810T, they don't interest me at all. They're cheap and creaky and flexible - exactly the kind of notebook that lasts 12 months if you regularly travel with it. This is why the dv2 interested me: it's rock-solid and clearly made to an entirely different quality target. For example, the dv2's headphone port is metal - usually reserved for professional audio gear.

The Timeline's problems are in stark contrast to Acer's 9-inch Aspire One, which was remarkably well built for something so cheap.

As CPUs and GPUs get more energy-efficient, we'll eventually reach the point when a single 10-inch machine will work fine even for people with demanding computing needs. They'll hook it up to a big monitor + keyboard + mouse at home, then unplug for a go-anywhere netbook. That kind of thing appeals to me.

pscates2.0
2009-08-16, 19:41
You finally came to your senses! :p

Seriously, that's great news. Congrats on such a sweet purchase. You'll be happier in the long run, and I'm pretty sure you're already aware of that...

:)