Geforce Go 6200 versus ATI Radeon Mobile 9800 for updated powerbooks

[Tenbaum11]

I was reading some specs on the Geforce Go 6200 and on the ATI Mobile 9800. I know that the 9800 is under consideration for the powerbook update but they are having trouble fitting the large mobile video card into the powerbook's slim design. The Geforce Go 6200 has been created for "thin and light" computers, which seems to me would be the perfect compliment to the powerbook line. I have also read that the Geforce Go 6800 is quite the mobile card and can out-perform the Mobile 9800 easily. Does anyone have any opinions on how the Geforce Go 6200 and Go 6800 compare to the Mobile Radeon 9800, Mobile Radeon 9700, and the Geforce Go 5200? What would video card would you like to see in the next powerbook. And what is the most likely canidate?

[Luca]

There certainly are a wide range of options. I think a safe bet to start would be to assume that each model will retain a video processor from the same company. Or if it does indeed switch, then another must switch as well to balance it out. Apple strives to attain a balance between ATI and nVidia, for various reasons.

So let's look at the PowerBooks. Right now they have the aging GeForce Go 5200 in the 12", and the now-kinda-old Mobility Radeon 9700 in the 15" and 17" models. One thing you have to consider is that some of these new chipsets are designed for PCI Express, and the PowerBooks don't currently have a PCI Express bus. It would require a redesign of the motherboard in order to do so, and I think Apple will hold off until the PowerBooks get G5s to incorporate PCIe. So we can scratch the Mobility X800 off the list, since it's PCIe only. That leaves, for ATI at least, pretty much just the current 9700 and the newer Mobility Radeon 9800. I think the 9800 is an obvious choice. History tells us that the PowerBooks have received updated GPUs in nearly every revision since 2001. The 9800 may not be the newest thing on the block, but it's still faster than the 9700 and it only needs to stay with the PowerBooks for one revision. Then Apple can incorporate PCIe and use the latest graphics processors.

As for the 12", I really hope they upgrade it past the GeForce 5200. The 6200 would be a natural choice, since it's geared toward low power consumption and heat. I don't think the 6200 would make a good replacement for a Mobility 9800, but it would be a great upgrade from the 5200.

[MCQ]

Until I see more information on the Go 6200, I'm a little skeptical of it. It's performance is decent from the little that's been published, but I'm curious if it's only being offered in a Turbocache option. Also, is it offered in an AGP form?

[Wrao]

I'd think that apple would be definitely considering and trying as many options as possible. The GPU is a significant source of heat and size, as it's like another processor. So, I'm sure apple is on it regarding prototypes and such, and will do whatever it takes. As much as they may want to stay with ATi for whatever reasons, if the Geforce can provide comparable and/or better performance while being smaller and/or producing less heat, then I'm sure apple will try to get it in the powerbook.

[CoopDeVille]

When is the big question - I see Sony have already announced this card is going in their latest laptops. How far will Apple (as always) lag behind on the GPU?

[Wrao]

How far will Apple (as always) lag behind on the GPU?

If I remember correctly, when the aluminum powerbooks were first introduced the radeon 9700 mobile was *the* top of the line laptop card. But I don't remember for sure.

[Electric Monk]

Apple was one of the starting companies for the Radeon 9700 mobile when first released.

They were also up to date, although not a starting company, with the Radeon 9600 before that.

The Radeon 9800 is too big and uses too much heat for anything but the 17" in all likelihood. Only desktop/gaming laptops use that card (Dell XPS I think).

[Luca]

I see... but wouldn't the 6200 be a downgrade? I don't know a whole lot about the mobile version, but the desktop version of the card is a budget-priced model like the 5200 was a year or two ago.

[MCQ]

I see... but wouldn't the 6200 be a downgrade? I don't know a whole lot about the mobile version, but the desktop version of the card is a budget-priced model like the 5200 was a year or two ago.

Yes, the 6200 would definitely be a downgrade from the MR9700. It's performance (in desktop testing) is about on par with the X300 from ATI.

Again, I'm not sure that I would expect the 6200 in a notebook soon, for the same reason I wouldn't expect any of ATI's X series GPU's to be in a PB soon - the little bit documented on the 6200 makes it appear that it is PCI Express only, which I don't see Apple implementing for a minor revision.

In addition, the 6200 has turbocache technology which combines some onboard GPU VRAM with some shared system memory (dynamically allocated based on usage). I hope Apple wouldn't use this, given that we don't need something pulling some system memory away, even if it's only 32-64MB of it.

[unixguru]

Just to clarify, Apple doesn't use a video card in any of their laptops. I'm not even sure if the iMac has an actual card -- I think it does not. Instead, the graphics IC (ATI or nVIDIA) and VRAM chips are in a plastic or ceramic chip package which is surface-mounted directly to the main logic board via a ball grid array (BGA).

Speaking of BGA's, I just got my iBook motherboard back and it works perfectly. Apple refused to replace the board because I had opened the machine (AFTER it was out of warranty -- to replace an apple problem -- the reed switch cable, which fails almost as often as the logic boards). Yes, it has the video issue that every other ibook ever made has had. So I diagnosed the problem and sent it in to a PCB repair specialty shop and got it repaired for $37 -- that sure beats what apple wanted -- $700! Steve Jobs can kiss my ass!

[Luca]

Yeah, I'm aware there's no physical card in any of the machines other than the PowerMac. I don't think a video card would work at all in any of the all-in-one machines, because it would require a bulky internal video connector instead of just having it hardwired to both the internal display and the video-out port on the computer.

I know that a few high-end gaming laptops can actually accept video upgrades - how is this done? Does it use a drop-in GPU module, kind of like a CPU socket? Perhaps RAM slots for the VRAM, allowing you to increase the amount of memory? It would seem to me that each part of the video chipset (or whatever you want to call it, we use card because it's quick and everyone knows what you mean by it) would be too interdependent on one another to work that way. But maybe I'm wrong. I know that either way, Apple will never offer GPU upgrades on any PowerBook, but I'm still curious as to how they work.

Nice work with the iBook. Apple can be a bitch sometimes, refusing to fix ANY part even if it's unrelated to any of the service work you've done yourself. Glad to hear it worked out okay anyway.

[MCQ]

I know that a few high-end gaming laptops can actually accept video upgrades - how is this done? Does it use a drop-in GPU module, kind of like a CPU socket? Perhaps RAM slots for the VRAM, allowing you to increase the amount of memory? It would seem to me that each part of the video chipset (or whatever you want to call it, we use card because it's quick and everyone knows what you mean by it) would be too interdependent on one another to work that way. But maybe I'm wrong. I know that either way, Apple will never offer GPU upgrades on any PowerBook, but I'm still curious as to how they work.


AFAIK, they're a module that's small enough to fit into a laptop, with the vram chips on the module. I think Nvidia designed MXM, which is their "solution" for it... ATI might have something different. An article on MXM is available here:

http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.cfm?articleid=524&cid=2

I don't know what Alienware did in some of their gaming laptops, as I think their "upgradable gpu" laptops came out before MXM. It may have been some sort of in-house thing they did themselves.

[FearlessLeader]

I'm thinking that a Mobility Radeon X700 would be a likely choice for Powerbooks ... would fit in with Apple's needs nicely (and mine :) )

They'll want something new, but not as big as the Mobility 9800, methinks.

And the X700 is HDTV compatible, with HDTV component output support ... and as Unca Steve said, it is the year of HD!

[Luca]

:\

Is there a Mobility X700? I heard that the X700 is already EOL, barely after getting out the door, and ATI's replacing it with something else (what, I don't know). Also, it's PCI Express only.

It looks like Apple's going to have to either figure out how to get the 9800 into the PowerBooks, stick with the 9700, or somehow add PCI Express to the PowerBooks. Unlike desktop PCs, where people want to be able to use a new video card in an older PC, laptops have you buying the whole thing. So there are a lot more new AGP-compatible video cards than there are AGP-compatible laptop graphics chips.