MC: Redesign of Communal Mob Trap [Archive]

billybobsky

2011-04-11, 02:32

So I was glancing around the minecraft forums and stumbled upon several examples of recent mob traps that work at incredible speeds even with small foot prints. These vary significantly from the sort that I designed in that death, often by falling onto water supported by *fences*, which subverts the whole protective action of water, is distributed rather than centralized. It may be possible to convert the current mob trap to incorporate this idea, by changing the water flow in the channels and creating an under structure to decentralize killing, and serve as a collection basin.

Is there any desire/interest in redesign?

Poll included!

RowdyScot

2011-04-11, 02:45

Before I commit, what would we need to do precisely?

billybobsky

2011-04-11, 03:39

Thinking about the amount of work, I am not sure it is worth it to completely re-engineer the trap. It may, however, be really simple to add one or more of the small footprint traps to near the collection building and direct their drops into the same flow stream as the current collection. I can do this myself, and hell if it works really really well, we may consider completely revamping the former design... Of course, if slimes don't get fixed all of this is moot.

billybobsky

2011-04-11, 11:39

On third thought: this might not actually be that bad...

1) build channels below the current ones by 3 or four (need to figure out how much lower they need to be). Ideally these channels would be wider to prevent spiders from clogging the works, but this will make it difficult to build and design intersections of the channels. I need to consider this more...

2) Install miniature grinders designed to take care of both normal height mobs and spiders -- slight variation on the lava blade -- above the flow on every rise or every other rise.

3) Have Brad kindly turn off hostile mob spawning while work is underway in the trap.

4) Dry channels in trap. Punch holes to allow mobs to drop into the channels below. Install signs to control water flow. Place water. Knock out torches, get out, and have Brad turn the hostile mobs back on...

Note: The original plan was to have most mobs die by falling. This eliminates that concept allowing a more compact structure but one whose efficiency will likely overcome the difficulties of depending upon lava blades.

I just quickly built an example of the microgrinder above a simulated channel for your observation just outside of the hostile mob trap.

drewprops

2011-04-11, 11:48

I feel like the 10th grader who has just walked into a 12th grade calculus class.

The mechanics of how the traps work is beyond me, still - but this is interesting.

...

709

2011-04-11, 12:50

I just quickly built an example of the microgrinder above a simulated channel for your observation just outside of the hostile mob trap.Awesome. Can't wait to check it out later. :)

You know I'm always up for a project that distracts me from completing the upper dome on the UFO. ;)

turtle

2011-04-11, 12:59

I'm interested...though my Mom's coming in town today so I might not be one much with her visiting. :)

billybobsky

2011-04-13, 02:05

Ok. Lets talk about this sometime later this week in game...

I think this will massively increase the efficiency of the communal trap. If so, I can retire my old trap and convert the land to something more.... pleasant...

billybobsky

2011-04-16, 02:20

Ok: So I started laying the new channels for the trap booster and realized something awful: my minigrinder only works on MOST of the channels, but not all. Intersections at the main channel cannot be treated the same way.

Fear not, there are solutions:

We ignore spiders and just put tall mob grinders on the main channels. We prefilter out the spiders and place cacti at these filters for good measure (probably was going to happen anyway). The third solution may actually be the best: offset the booster main channels from the main channels above by 2, place standard minigrinders and at the intersections (where two side channels meet the main channel) have no grinder. At most this means mobs will have to travel two lengths of eight until they die.

These ideas aren't entirely exclusive, filtering off the spiders has merits, but also might have unintended downstream effects...

As it stands the starter channels are NOT offset, so don't go extending those just yet. Also Note: The channels in the current trap are not 'perfect' in that it may be necessary to remove some blocks to get everything to line up and not prevent the grinders from being inserted.

billybobsky

2011-04-17, 02:24

I have extended a couple (if not all) of the main channels. Meanwhile I have decided that the inner most side channels aren't needed on the booster as their advantage is limited, which should simplify things.

Brad: would you be amenable to turning off hostile mobs for the week you are gone? Or perhaps telling turtle how to do so/giving him the ability?

billybobsky

2011-04-18, 00:02

The bulk of the work on the channels is done: to be added are walls and the mini grinders/water.

There was a brief lull in the mob spawning and i took the opportunity to crack open the mob trap and throw some torches down. It was a short lived exercise, but a decent start.

There's much to be done, and I will appreciate any help i can get...

turtle

2011-04-18, 00:38

When I can get on later this week I'll be sure to spend some time helping out over there. I'll catch you online at some point and make it happen. :)

billybobsky

2011-04-18, 21:14

Correction on my last post:

The bulk of the work is still to come :(.

I thought the grinders would be easy to install, and they are, relatively, but the process is by no means easy, particularly since you are playing with fire, water and heights at the same time...

I also just realized something else we can do to increase the efficiency of the trap: there's a lot of wasted volume in the trap itself, if we place concentric single wide scaffolds separated side to side by two and, where relevant, above below by two, it will effectively increase the surface area of the trap and provide more spawn points for the mobs...

billybobsky

2011-04-18, 23:16

Turtle: may I ask a favor? Could you admin magic 9 or so stacks of lava into my inventory for the trap? This will greatly speed progress...

turtle

2011-04-18, 23:33

I will do that for you, but I think the lava I give acts a little different. It's not in a bucket. Maybe I can find where there's a lava bucket, otherwise it's straight up lava. You'll need to be sure you place it right the first time I think. Next time I can catch you not logged in I'll see about making it happen though. 9x64 coming up!

billybobsky

2011-04-18, 23:48

Straight up lava is fine... :) Thanks in advance...

turtle

2011-04-18, 23:52

Turns out there is a lava bucket. They are waiting for you now. :)

billybobsky

2011-04-19, 00:10

Sweet, thanks again :)

billybobsky

2011-04-23, 05:44

Well that was painful... So 99.5% of the booster channels are done, all that remains is some cleaning up of the center and integrating it into the glass structure nicer than it currently is... Maybe the last grinders/channels should be glass/halfstone...

The next part is fun inside the trap itself and that undertaking is not a one person job.

Thanks goes to turtle for helping build walls and providing a cobblestone injection to the booster channels.

709

2011-04-23, 15:46

:( Sorry I haven't been around lately. You know I love working on stuff like this, but workload has been massive this week. :\

billybobsky

2011-04-23, 18:07

That's ok, 709... Other than last night's almost 8 hour stretch of construction, it was pretty light work, and when it came to why I stayed up finishing it, the work was repetitive and mindless, exactly what's needed after a long week...

billybobsky

2011-04-24, 22:40

Right so... I am off for all of tomorrow and didn't get a chance to illuminate my plans for the mob trap which means it will have to wait until tuesday...

But the upstart to all of it is that we are going to need signs. And I don't mean just the 1000 or so going in the channels. I mean thousands more to line the edges of the scaffolding i am adding to increase the surface area of the trap. The signs prevent spiders from holding onto the space between the channels thus clogging up the works. Between the booster channels and the several fold increase in surface area the trap will go from impressive to scary fast (i hope) until Notch breaks something (probably signs holding back water)...

turtle

2011-04-24, 23:56

Well, if signs do break holding water then we can at least put ladders in...spiders likely would move out of the way rather than hang over them blocking access. Sure some mobs might climb out, but little would change over how the trap works now meaning little overall impact on the current standard.

billybobsky

2011-04-25, 01:03

I suspect if the signs thing is fixed, the ladder thing will be as well (not that it matters, ladders are unfortunately not usable in this particular case since the mobs can climb them).

All of that said, if the ladders and signs are 'fixed' it is easy enough to convert the trap to a pure falling trap... but we can cross that bridge when/if happens...

billybobsky

2011-04-30, 01:54

Aha!

Spiders cannot climb over torches on walls!

This changes everything!!!!

We can redstone torch the scaffolding to the same effect as putting signs on it. Of course we need tons of redstone, so much so that I wonder if admin magic might not occur...

Er... problem: redstone torches DO reduce probability of spawning... perhaps signs are better after all?

709

2011-04-30, 08:34

Arg, that's true. Maybe signs are better after all. :\

turtle

2011-04-30, 08:57

I got you a good start going bb. Might be able to do more later though.

billybobsky

2011-05-02, 19:14

Animation wasn't the problem at the trap, the excessive signs were... if it is any help...

Down to just a couple hundred signs and the fps is up to normal standards...

SpecMode

2011-05-02, 19:30

I'll note that those signs slashed my fps by about two-thirds (60 -> 19) just from being close to the trap, even when they weren't actually visible. That had better be one damned impressive upgrade, or I'm gonna start making tons of TNT. :p

Elysium

2011-05-02, 19:33

There is a drop in fps from around 50 away from the rink to on average 30 inside the rink. I'm more worried about memory usage as I had 40% earlier while on alone. :\

billybobsky

2011-05-02, 23:31

Right... So as mentioned elsewhere signs are a no go as they drop the graphics performance of users near the trap.

Having removed all but a couple hundred signs fps levels are near normal. The remainder of the rafter signs will be removed, and the signs needed to access the booster channels added in. This should be ok: the approximately 1000 signs required should put the fps at around 50 (?) if my observations are accurate. Meanwhile to test whether the rafters will work at all without signs (i predict failure) i am going to rebuild the top rafter level without signs, complete the renovations. Detorch and let fly. Hopefully observing mobs taking falls from the rafters without the 'oops, that's not a floor' encouragement signs provide.

thanks for the post move, brad!

drewprops

2011-05-03, 01:03

I understand very little of this thread... think I'll need a class on how mob traps work. Down at Skull Falls the number of scary mobs has increased quite a bit. Have no idea if this has anything to do with the communal mob trap being off right now, but it's SSSSKAAAAREEEE.

...

SpecMode

2011-05-03, 02:03

Yeah, the trap (usually being almost completely dark) tended to concentrate most of the server's maximum hostile mob population in one spot, so the spawn rates elsewhere on the map went way down. Now that the trap is offline for construction, the general population should be closer to "normal".

billybobsky

2011-05-03, 09:24

Er... Actually, no. The reason for the increased hostile activity is due to a change in the code notch made, effectively increasing spawn rate.

The inactivity of the hostile trap doesn't change the rates of spawning of mobs elsewhere on the map, nor does its activity. On the converse, however, lighting up the rest of the map will increase the spawn yield at the trap because the population cap isn't depleted by spawns elsewhere.

billybobsky

2011-05-04, 00:21

And so.... Trap 2.0 is partially active due mostly to turtle's brave detorching of the outer ring of spawning pads.

Tomorrow all torches (including redstone) get removed, hopefully during a mob free period.

While the trap improvements below seem to be doing their job, the scaffolding above is needing to be tested... If mobs jump off in a timely fashion, then more rafters will be added; if not the ones there will be removed. Either way the trap or perhaps just mob spawning will be down again...

turtle

2011-05-04, 23:19

Brad takes on spiders to put out the one lone torch bb left due to a hasty completion of the new elevator to the viewing area at the top of the trap.
SD (http://youtu.be/pyeCY8IvAdI), HD (http://youtu.be/pyeCY8IvAdI?hd=1)

Drew asked to see it happen, so here he goes. :) Trap works great too!

drewprops

2011-05-04, 23:56

Just watched it on my phone and it freaked me out. Did a spider follow him out?

billybobsky

2011-05-05, 00:08

So trap is totally active and working like a charm. Users of the past trap will note the incredible bounty of string -- a downstream effect of the new grinder design i used in the minigrinders (not my own invention, sadly), so much so that wool may be easier to harvest via string than by killing sheep. So very strange.

turtle

2011-05-05, 08:04

Just watched it on my phone and it freaked me out. Did a spider follow him out?

No, a spider didn't follow him out. They did get the hole closed up and no spider made it out of the trap prior to dying.

arteggio

2011-05-05, 08:55

Just checked it out: amazing efficiency! I collected a whole stack of arrows just by standing at the end of the stream. Bravo.

And the feather chest is full...

drewprops

2011-05-05, 09:14

Much better on a larger screen.
Didn't realize that Bruce was in there with Brad.
Nice work!

I went to look at Gargoyles new place yesterday and we went outside a bit at night and I only had a few arrows. Trying to pull up the right weapon using a trackpad is terrible. I still need to get myself a mouse! Kind of wish the available items boxes had tiny numbers over them to help me select them quicker with the number keys.

I might not be as terrified of the critters if I knew that I wouldn't be hitting them with my chronograph.

...

709

2011-05-05, 09:39

Just checked it out myself. Wow. *much* more loot. :eek:

Very impressive. Well done!

Plus, ladder to the observation deck = good idea. Something I've always wished was there (but couldn't be for practical reasons).

billybobsky

2011-05-07, 01:23

Thanks for the compliments!

I have made further design changes to the collection area... Any comments/critiques are welcome.

turtle

2011-05-07, 11:58

I'll stop by there later today and take a look.

billybobsky

2011-05-23, 00:59

So small update:

Trap isn't working nearly as well any more. Its back to its significantly more anemic 1.4 era rate. Brad has said (second hand) this is due to bugs introduced by Bukkit -- as evidenced by the drops that appear everywhere under the trap. Its a faustian bargain, to be sure, so hopefully either the bug will get fixed or bukkit will get re-removed...

SpecMode

2011-05-23, 02:50

Seems like it's working just fine to me. Seeing stupid numbers of mobs spawning in here right now, watching from the observation platform. (I've also seen a half-dozen spider jockeys just in the last few minutes, which is cool.)

Brad

2011-05-23, 07:36

Brad has said (second hand) this is due to bugs introduced by Bukkit -- as evidenced by the drops that appear everywhere under the trap.
Wait - huh? I don't recall mentioning anything close to this, and I clearly remember seeing random flickering/burning drops under trap before the switch too. Given Spec's comment above, are we sure this wasn't a fluke?

drewprops

2011-05-23, 08:48

I was the secondhand person... was sure you'd said the weird drops were due to some sort of bug. Apologies if I misunderstood and passed on incorrect info.

...

Bryson

2011-05-23, 12:20

Yeah, I've seen the drops below too. And given that the trap filled my inventory in under 5 minutes, I think it's perfectly fast enough!

billybobsky

2011-05-23, 13:05

Wait - huh? I don't recall mentioning anything close to this, and I clearly remember seeing random flickering/burning drops under trap before the switch too. Given Spec's comment above, are we sure this wasn't a fluke?
The mobs are spawning fine... Their drops aren't all remaining in the channels...

If you run around below the trap you will find drops scattered on the ground (and they are able to be picked up -- it's not a visual fluke). This is a new 'feature' since the bukkit upgrade...

billybobsky

2011-05-23, 13:07

Yeah, I've seen the drops below too. And given that the trap filled my inventory in under 5 minutes, I think it's perfectly fast enough!
It was taking almost 2-3 times as long to get the same stack of gunpowder for me earlier -- so an twenty minutes versus seven...

turtle

2011-05-23, 19:25

He's right about the drops on the ground under the trap. I went out there the check it out and it's just like he said it was. Sure there's still a major flow of drops in the trap, there are also a fair number being dropped through the cobblestone. I actually watched some fall through after hearing a death above.

So then the question becomes: Is the loss of these drops worth the leaving of bukkit? Personally I'm for bukkit and the mods we have now. I'm also not personally reliant on the product coming out of the trap either though.

billybobsky

2011-05-23, 22:43

Honestly, what is the benefit of the mods?

Us regular folks get nothing but the ability to warp to a coordinate and that's it. It isn't a big deal, certainly not worth it to me.

SpecMode

2011-05-23, 23:55

I think we've been doing alright with just the warp-to-person capability with SimpleServer. I can say with confidence that it is very unlikely that I will be using the warp-to-coordinate feature as it will almost certainly result in repeated (and admittedly comical) deaths.

That being said, are the drops-under-the-trap actually being caused by bukkit, or a heretofore-unnoticed bug in MC itself? (i.e., have we tried running the server for a while without bukkit or other mods installed to see if the drops still appear?)