View Full Version : MC: Nether in SMP
1.6 is dropping next week and that means Nether. I think we should plan out how we are going to utilize the Nether before we start building portals willy-nilly.
Specifically I think we should require strict permission from Brad to build any portals. The problem is that portals become unpredictable when placed in close proximity. If we all build portals near Bridgeport, the connections between those portals and the portals in the Nether can get weird.
So here's what I think we should do. I think we destroy all portals currently on the map so we don't get confused. Then I think we should build a portal in the middle or near the middle of Bridgeport. Then we should put portals at the extremes of the current skyway network. Then we would have five portals... and no more. No more portal construction after that, in either world.
Then we link them with a large stone structure in the Nether (rails? maybe, if they get fixed) so transit is ghast-free. I'm up for building most of this structure, I have experience with Nether construction and I also have a lot of free time so I will be able to do it pretty quickly.
And then we will have super fast transit from Bridgeport to the extremes of the map. It will also serve as a sort of "soft" boundary for exploring, i.e. don't go past the portals in either world.
Sound good?
Well, I only know of two existing portals: the "trick" one at spawn and the one at Flaming Mountain.
If we de-trickyify the one at spawn it could stay. You'll have to talk to Grey about the one at FM: I personally think it should be "grandfathered" as it's kind of part of the design there. Although how he plans to get onto that balcony now, I'm not sure. :)
Before we make the Nether fully safe and not at all scary: isn't that kind of the point? I like the idea that a trip to the nether must be prepared for: so not just a simpler mode of transit but a proper adventure!
If we de-trickyify the one at spawn it could stay. You'll have to talk to Grey about the one at FM: I personally think it should be "grandfathered" as it's kind of part of the design there. Although how he plans to get onto that balcony now, I'm not sure. :)
If people would rather have the one at the spawn stay, rather than moving it to Bridgeport, that's fine.
The one at FM might have to go because it might interfere with the one at the spawn. We can do some testing, though.
Before we make the Nether fully safe and not at all scary: isn't that kind of the point? I like the idea that a trip to the nether must be prepared for: so not just a simpler mode of transit but a proper adventure!
Then walk outside ;)
I know from talking on the server that at least few players would prefer a protected Nether transit system. Also, I really wanna build it :p
I just love the concept:
"Hey guys, I managed to discover a way to make a PORTAL INTO HELL.
Woah, holy shit dude, what are you going to do with it?
I'll make it part of our Integrated Transit Policy."
WTF?
:p
I prefer to think of it as hyperspace.
:D
I'll probably move the one that's currently on my balcony. The prospect of a ghast appearing in my living room does not excite me in the least. :p
There will still be one at Flaming Mountain though, I just have to figure out where to best put it. The, um, thing I'm building in hell directly under FM will need it. ;)
Where to put the portal in BP is up for discussion. I'm fine with it where it is at spawn, but if y'all think it needs to be downtown I'm fine with that too.
I'll probably move the one that's currently on my balcony. The prospect of a ghast appearing in my living room does not excite me in the least. :p
There will still be one at Flaming Mountain though, I just have to figure out where to best put it. The, um, thing I'm building in hell directly under FM will need it. ;)
Okay, well let's first ensure that if we build a portal under FM it will create a corresponding portal in the Nether and not just link to the Nether side of the spawn portal. Because that can happen. I think FM is *just* far enough away from the spawn where it will be okay, but we should make sure.
I think it's far enough away, but sure, we'll test it.
I think it's far enough away, but sure, we'll test it.
I've been testing portals in SMP and the portal interference range is much further than it feels like it should be. I had portals about 500 blocks apart (only 60 blocks in the Nether) act strangely. FM is about 580 blocks from the spawn which is only 72 blocks in the Nether. That's definitely close enough for portal interference.
It might be okay, but it might not. If FM is too close for an independent portal then I think the priority should be the spawn.
I'm cool with the one staying in spawn for the BP area. Other than that, I'd say somewhat of a coordinated effort is definitely in order. Seeing what it does the to server and game performance being near the top of the list.
If we are all ok with experimentation, there are backups that could be used in the event of catastrophe. I like the idea of one at Flaming Mountain too. Plus, I know 709 wants one there. So how far away would it need to be to prevent issues?
Specifically I think we should require strict permission from Brad to build any portals.
I don't care for the nether or "protected portal network" at all, personally, but if you guys want to use it sparingly, that's fine. Just know that introducing the nether opens a whole Pandora's box of risks and potential problems from the server management side. Running both the nether and the "normal" world, for example, effectively doubles the the realtime resource demand on the server (CPU and RAM) and makes runaway world growth easier than ever. I have no idea what the game will do when it hits the limit of the ramdisk. Will it seize up? Crash? Close gracefully? I'd bet on anything except for that last option. When that happens, how do we recover? Can we recover? Should we recover?
And these are just the obvious issues we actually know before launch. Think of the disasters weird performance issues we're having with minecart rails that nobody anticipated (or with the introduction of wolves, or reintroduction of slimes, or signs in the trap); no doubt there will be mystery problems aplenty with the nether that no one will recognize for a while and won't be fully understood even after we run a bunch of controlled tests.
I hate for you guys to make a ton of plans for nether like you did for rails and then a week later realize, whoops, you burned through a lot of time and thought and work but it doesn't work for Players A or B because of Mystery Problems X, Y, and Z.
If it was just up to me, I wouldn't even enable the nether (assuming there's an admin/mgmt option at all), but since you guys are hyped for it, on it will go.
http://applenova.com/etc/brad/minecraft/images/slimecoin.png http://applenova.com/etc/brad/minecraft/images/slimecoin.png
My two slime cents.
RowdyScot
2011-05-20, 20:41
I like the idea of using it, but only if it can realistically be used. I'm doubting it will be.
Okay, well here's the thing about portals. If we dont do it organized-like, then they will quickly become useless since the connections won't be predictable. So either we can place them in an organized fashion or we can just put portals everywhere and forget about using them for transport.
It's obviously up to you guys. I would prefer to have an organized transit system but if you guys care more about having portals in all your castles, then so be it.
The way to reduce server load and to try and make the nether usable is to limit the number of portals and the size of the nether. Hence my 5 portal boundary suggestion. But again, if people would prefer chaos, then go for it. Chaos seems fitting given the nature of the Nether.
Also, I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but at >600 blocks, I think the two existing portals will interfere with each other. We'll know next week, I guess.
billybobsky
2011-05-20, 23:18
Uh.... I don't think they need to be that far apart, K... I was looking at the size constraints and it seems that for most people beyond the 10-16 meter range the portals don't get bounced...
Also: easiest way to control massive map expansion is to forbid building portals in the nether. Portals can only be built topside, no exceptions. This prevents the nether from getting too large (assuming exploration is limited ) and absolutely prevents the topside map from getting larger due to the nether.
drewprops
2011-05-20, 23:26
I'm unqualified to have an opinion about portals. I like the idea of having a hyperspace. I don't like the idea of unknown things happening, which is what computers tend to do when you're beta testing someone's code.
Caution!!
Excelsior!!
...
RowdyScot
2011-05-20, 23:31
My worry is that using them will be what causes the issues. What happens to anyone using Clear?
billybobsky
2011-05-20, 23:45
It no different than loading up a world...
RowdyScot
2011-05-21, 00:22
But both worlds are active on the server...simultaneously.
billybobsky
2011-05-21, 00:43
I am not sure how you think that might affect the end user who is only getting data from one of the worlds...
SpecMode
2011-05-21, 00:56
It's the load on the server that's likely to be the problem. Remember the performance issues we saw when we switched to the first new server? That was caused by maxing the CPU (since the server program is apparently single-threaded, it will only ever use one CPU core, so the speed of a single core is your effective limit). If the server is having to manage two world maps at once, it's that much easier to hit that limit and kill performance for everyone.
billybobsky
2011-05-21, 10:37
Yes, exactly... It will be an issue spread to all users and not just those on shitty internet like myself and Robo...
There's an option to turn off the nether completely. Should we do that?
I think we probably should, because I have a feeling that it will crush server performance.
We should at least take a peek inside and maybe gather some resources in the immediate area. As long as there's no expeditions for hundreds and hundreds of blocks (unlikely) it may be OK to keep it open, at least temporarily.
Would an Overworld prune help? We're probably due for one.
drewprops
2011-05-26, 11:23
is single player mode a world of our own? I've never tried it. Does it stay put... let you build whatever you want?
...
is single player mode a world of our own? I've never tried it. Does it stay put... let you build whatever you want?
...
Yes.
I seems like we should allow it for the sake of seeing it if nothing else. Then we can disable it later if it is a problem.
"What could go wrong?" :)
Imma wait until you're all inside exploring and unlight the portal. :devil:
Does the portal on the other end then disappear? Or simply need relighting?
SpecMode
2011-05-26, 19:48
Dunno. There's never been a situation where it would happen, so I guess you guys get to find out the hard way!
Duh, of course! Can't occupy both worlds in SSP!
If you manufacture a portal while in the Nether, does it just create one in the real world?
RowdyScot
2011-05-27, 13:41
Yes, it will create a new portal in the real world. Also, those of you joking about "poking around" are in for hell. The new baddie-spawning algorithm and Ghasts? Heh. Heheheheh.
So I'm going to assume we'll use this as our Nether thread:
I went through today and completed the connection to Bryson's southern portal. Still not sure where it is topside, but it's connected to the Spawn portal in Nether.
Also, I went through and widened the paths in Nether that were only 2 blocks wide. I ended up making them 3 blocks wide to make it a little roomier.
709, you built your portal safety area in Nether and I modified it slightly to widen that part of the path one more block. If you don't like my change let me know and I'll put it back. 3 blocks just feels nicer than 2.
Next up I'm thinking about adding rails.
Thanks Turtle!
Logged back on today in order to do the tunnel, and there it was, beautifully done!
Random thought: I see that Pigmen can spawn pretty much anywhere. Is 3 wide big enough for a Ghast to spawn inside the tunnels?
You're very welcome! I enjoyed doing it. :)
I haven't seen a ghast in there yet. I've butchered them a few times too to see where they spawn. Would be highly unlikely they even can let alone would spawn in our protected area.
SpecMode
2011-06-11, 01:48
The Nether expansion continues! The Mob Hill portals are complete - turns out I was able to find a use for the far side of the hill after all!
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3453307/MobHill_portal_day.jpg
drewprops
2011-06-11, 02:21
Bruce and Brad have established a portal near Barfing Skull Falls.... well, it's actually AT Barfing Skull Falls.... well, it's actually DIRECTLY UNDER Barfing Skull Falls......
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/630422/minecraft/nether_001.jpg
...and then Bruce single-handedly (with some bumbling occasional help from me) connected me up to the hallways system....
thanks y'all!!!!
P.S.
Watch out for the lava when exiting the portal..... :lol:
...
RowdyScot
2011-06-11, 12:22
All this Nether fun! I'm looking forward to getting back on tomorrow night. :)
Ghast hunting is a blast! I had to do it the other day because it was chick-flic night and I needed something to pull me out of that funk. Bad movie. Good points but broken too.
So I went ghast hunting followed by pigmen and cave diving. :) I felt better afterwards. :D
billybobsky
2011-06-11, 14:47
I've added a portal to my hallway/workshop area, and in the process rotated SpecMode's portal and made symmetrical (with Brad's assistance) that area of the hall system.
I spent some time repairing the grounds around the spawn portal and the hallways that extend from it. All the ghast hunting left the surface pitted with dozens of craters, and I went about filling a bunch of them to make traversing the land easier (until the ghasts blow it all up again, that is).
I used mostly netherrack for the repairs (with a few touches of glowstone), but I think next time I'll use cobblestone. Might be neat to see how much they're deforming the land!
I modified the rail a little so that the redstone torches weren't visible on the stairs. I also get power right off the launch. I'm going to put a train in from my portal to spawn. It's not going to follow the diagonal though. I don't like how you have to make jerk hard for the powered rails. Not sure I'll get it done tonight though....
Also looking to put a portal at the junction of the Dark Green line for my "T" Ranch. I'll get the location figured out later on that one when I can be there for it though.
SpecMode
2011-06-21, 00:31
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3453307/SkullFalls_Nether.jpg
Here's my shot of the Nether version of Drew's flaming skull. Came out rather well, I think. :)
drewprops
2011-07-23, 15:22
Last night I added a new portal to my sandy place down south. The Nether portal is along the long hall stretching down to Bryson's portal. I really had fun with the decor, see what you think!
I connected it with someone's lonely glassed in shack but am now wondering if that person is okay with that connection. Let me know!
...
arteggio
2011-07-23, 16:07
I connected it with someone's lonely glassed in shack but am now wondering if that person is okay with that connection. Let me know!
Sort of a corner cobble hut with columnular windows? If so, connect away.
If it's down that corridor, then the shack was mine. Connect away.
I added a portal to both the Temple and the UFO. :)
Since the UFO is almost as far North as the Rink of Pain I also took the opportunity to expand the nether walkways a bit and made a path from the UFO to the RoP and a T off of that to T's Ranch portal. Now the pathways are more of a loop with a little easier access to get to/from some of the further regions to/from the Spawn portal.
Speaking of further regions: arteggio, you should put a portal in your castle out west. I doubt everyone's made the trek out there via the skywalks and it's too nice to leave out there unvisited. ;) If you build one at the castle and post the coords I'll build a path and the pairing portal in the Nether (if you want me to).
arteggio
2011-07-25, 07:15
I'll be sure to do that sometime. ( Portal: the new rail! ) :)
Might be a while though. Real world things currently inhibit my frolicking in Minecraft.
arteggio
2011-08-07, 19:22
My far-west Artheim Castle is now linked to the Underworld.
Come on by if you've never been! :)
Is it connected to the tunnel system in Nether too?
SpecMode
2011-08-07, 23:20
Seems to be - there's a new branch leading off from the corridor near the Mob Hill portal, past where you would go up the stairs to get to Flaming Mountain.
drewprops
2011-08-08, 00:37
I built a new portal that has a pretty snazzy room complete with a leafy floor. Can't remember what it's near...
I've seen to yours, I like it too. You connected it to the glass enclosed house that Bryson built as well as to the main tunnel south.
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