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TerryG
2005-04-21, 13:58
Hello everyone!
I know that there are just a handfull of companies actually building everyone's LCDs, but that differences do exist.
I ruled out Apples own 23Ē LCD because of its pink screen issues & high price.
I am no fan of Dell, but one model, the 2405FPW built for them by Samsung on paper looks to have excellent specís

1920X1200 resolution
12 ms response time
1000:1 contrast ratio
DVI-D port

But I have some questions about this model.
1. Dellís web site states its PC compatible, but no mention of Mac compatibility.
Are Appleís DVI ports any different than Dellís DVI-D connections?

2. Dose anyone own this model? I would like to know how you feel about it compared to other large LCDs.

3. Sony offers a line of Xtra-bright LCD monitors, anyone familiar with these models?

4. Do any of these companies, or on-line stores offer a more generous return policy because of dead pixels?
Thanks for your feedback!

admactanium
2005-04-21, 14:20
i have a new sony 23" lcd monitor and i'm loving it so far.

Koodari
2005-04-21, 22:31
1. Mac compatible, definitely. Also the integral 7-in-1 card reader should be compatible since it's a standard USB memory device and also works in Windows without drivers. Pivot support is reportedly coming in Tiger.

2. I've got 2405FPW ordered, projected delivery two weeks. I intend to use it with iBook and a PS2.

4. I hear they have generous return policy in the US. I don't worry about my local return policy because law gives me 14 day unconditional return period on "mail sales". Three year warranty is good in my book, but I think other manufacturers except Apple give the same.

FallenFromTheTree
2005-04-30, 02:03
I just ordered my Dell 2405FPW 24" HD display today.

Outrageously good deals if you know how to shop.

Education/Corporate discounts offers a HUGE savings.

Thanks to Wednesdays' $600 reduction on the Rev B 2.0 PowerMacs
and a very friendly Dell education store rep,
I will now have a NEW Rev B 2.0 dually and a Dell 24" HD display
for just over $2700.

I'm happy!

jellybonefish
2005-05-02, 01:44
That is quite the haul in hardware! Make sure you post how the 24" works out for you, I'm very curious.

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-07, 03:16
I am totally blown away with my new Dell 24" display! :D

Beautiful, bright, crisp images. The trim around the edges is flat charcoal black and relatively thin so the edges disappear into the background of your workspace on screen. The sturdy pedestal is not really an issue at all when you have the display on the lowest height setting.
The only thing cooler would be to have two of these
for the price of one Apple 23" display with no real compromise in quality at all..

I'm still trying to get a hold of my daughter's digicam so I can post some photos.

atomicbartbeans
2005-05-07, 08:26
Yeah, but I'd much rather support Apple than Dell. I'd gladly pay more to buy from a company with the best products, support, and reputation in the business. The brushed metal of a cinema display is so awesome...

Luca
2005-05-07, 08:51
Is it worth $300 extra? I don't think so.

As I've said in the past, if one company can make a comparable product and charge less for it, I'll buy it (well, assuming I need it). My buying a product from Dell would be an indication of Dell's success of that product. I don't let politics cloud my judgment--in the end, Apple and Dell are just businesses trying to make a profit. If Dell makes a 20" for $499 and Apple's is $799, and I buy the Dell, that's Dell's reward for their superior price/performance ratio. If people keep buying Dell displays instead of Apple displays, it will send Apple a message that they're still charging too much for their displays, and they'd rather sell them at a lower profit margin than not sell them at all.

I own an iPod, a Mac mini, and an Apple keyboard. There's my support for Apple right there... I didn't buy the stuff because I think Apple's a good company that deserves my money (I'm too poor, I could sell everything I own and send it all to Apple and they wouldn't even notice), I bought them because they are superior products for the money. Every time I buy something, I think of it as all the companies out there bidding for my money. Of course the companies aren't directly involved, but they all have their offerings out in the public for all to see. So while I have a Mac mini, I don't have Apple RAM in it, because Apple's offering for RAM was unreasonably high.

Koodari
2005-05-07, 09:08
Yeah, but I'd much rather support Apple than Dell. I'd gladly pay more to buy from a company with the best products, support, and reputation in the business. The brushed metal of a cinema display is so awesome...Your comment is only valid in general. In this case (Dell 24" vs Apple 23"), the Dell is obviously the superior product, with superior warranty, replacement policy, performance, features, pricing, and so far no widely reported problems like the 23":s well publicized pink hue. The only issues in the Dell are in features the Apple does not even have. This leaves looks as the only Apple selling point. It's still fine to buy Apple or other brand for the looks, but it pays to acknowledge the facts. Cheap does not equal bad.

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-07, 11:02
http://img92.echo.cx/img92/6986/g5dellg39wq.jpg

http://img92.echo.cx/img92/1874/applenovascreenshot4zv.jpg

Luca
2005-05-07, 11:18
I want one :(

Love the 8600/9600/G3 (which one?) in the background! :)

cyrusmekon
2005-05-07, 18:06
Koodari, could you post how things go with this monitor and an ibook. I myself am looking to get one (decided against the hassle of a cinema display).

Fallen, how does it perform now youve had it a play with it? Worth the bucks? Does the thing look like a beast on the table? I guess i should measure up my desk.

Thanks guys.

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-07, 18:51
It's kinda funny that the system on the right,
(Sony 17" Multiscan200Es and the beige G3 tower)
Actually cost me more than my new G5 2.0 dually/Dell 24" system.

The Dell is 22" wide and about 18" tall ( off the desk) on it's lowest setting.
Of course the 24" screen size is measured diagonally.

This gives me well more than double the actual screen size of my 17" Sony

I'm totally content with this new combo.

Koodari
2005-05-07, 22:05
Koodari, could you post how things go with this monitor and an ibook. I myself am looking to get one (decided against the hassle of a cinema display).Not only will I post the "with iBook" report, I'll also post the "with PS2 and Gran Turismo 4 at 1080i" report. :smokey:

Sadly (?), the display isn't even here yet and I already feel like I should return it because of the even better 20" deal Dell put out in the meanwhile - I could get two of those and a 28" TV for the same cash as the 24".

I'll test the 24" in any case.. and since when can I test a thing like that on my desk, already paid for, and send it away?

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-08, 03:31
Just ran Pixel Test on mine and it's all looking perfect.
I think you'll be quite impressed when you receive yours.

Beed
2005-05-10, 14:30
I just ordered my Dell 2405FPW 24" HD display today.

Outrageously good deals if you know how to shop.

Education/Corporate discounts offers a HUGE savings.

Thanks to Wednesdays' $600 reduction on the Rev B 2.0 PowerMacs
and a very friendly Dell education store rep,
I will now have a NEW Rev B 2.0 dually and a Dell 24" HD display
for just over $2700.

I'm happy!

I'm thinking of going the same route you did with the duel 2.0 ghz and the dell display but I was just wondering how good a display like that would be for color correction? Or should i get a CRT monitor for about the same price any reccomondations :confused:

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-11, 23:07
I'm not sure on the color correcion issue.
I'm sure they'll be happy to send you a PDF
or further specific info

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-15, 11:10
Just an added note that may or may not be of concern.

While I am still totally thrilled with my new 24" Dell display,
I should note that the passive cooling vents on the back of the Dell display may cause dust accumulation issues inside the display housing over time.
The Apple displays are clearly superior in this aspect with a virtually sealed system.

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/images/products/mv_large/22_dp_t6133.jpg http://images.apple.com/displays/gallery/images/back20050427.jpg

http://img214.echo.cx/img214/4030/appleback5rp.jpg

Shrunk on request

Luca
2005-05-15, 13:16
I thought the vents for the Apple display were on the sides. Maybe I'm wrong.

Oh and that is an ass-ugly, poorly done 3D rendering of that Apple display. Why does Apple always use 3D renderings instead of real photographs for their stock photography? Photos look much, MUCH better.

I'm going to consider picking up a Dell 24" display at some point. I don't know how long it'll take, but I'm getting a second job that'll basically give me spending money (since my current single job is just barely enough to pay the bills). Once I save up enough money for one, they will have probably dropped in price.

Then I can connect an XBox 360 to it. If I remember correctly, they have AV inputs. I can't see Apple ever selling a display to me if they continue to charge a huge premium for them, while offering a single attached DVI cable instead of the plethora of inputs and outputs offered by the Dell.

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-15, 14:42
There's more than a $600 price difference between the best available price on the Dell 24" and the Apple 23"

The problem is that not everyone qualifies for the best "up to 35% Off" Dell University discount. Others may simply pay too much by not doing their research.

I totally understand why many will still pay the high premium for the Apple's overall design, but for that price there should be NO quality issues and a standard 3 year warranty.

Both are great monitors, but it's up to you to decide which offers the better value.

Koodari
2005-05-15, 15:07
FFTT, *please* don't post pictures that wide!
(BTW, can it be done in CSS that any picture wider than X would be displayed
at X width, while the smaller ones were kept at normal size?)

Luca, no, Apple displays are sealed and passively cooled.
This would be better if everything else was the same, but now I think it's a
result for the Dell having an internal powersupply and the Apple an external
brick = different design criteria at work.

The 2405fpw has DVI, VGA, SVHS, composite, component inputs.

I think mine will be delivered tomorrow, but I'm really sweating over whether
I should keep it even if it turns out to be pixel/backlight perfect. I'm usually
very objective about spending but it's hard when you already got a thing like
this behind your door... I'm worried it might be excessive.

Even the futureproofing of 2405fpw is not certain - there is the unknown
factor of whether the still-unseen HDTV tuners here in Finland and next gen
game consoles are compatible with this display, and current consoles have so
precious few HD games, objectively speaking a TV should be equally good to
run the PS2.

A comparison to other LCD's is not a problem - this is the one I want
- but the comparison to getting the cheapest TV I can for use with the console
and pocketing the rest of the cash is hard. I used to think large displays are a
good investment almost regardless of circumstances, but now that I have
used laptops for a year I'm even used to the iBook screen.

Regarding the next gen consoles, I'd *really* like to see output directly to
computer displays, VGA or DVI, fitted in the same output port with the
regular TV output. The information is digital inside the console already, it
simply can't be that hard to output it. And what cheaper way to see HD than
a CRT computer monitor?

chucker
2005-05-15, 20:21
FFTT, *please* don't post pictures that wide!
(BTW, can it be done in CSS that any picture wider than X would be displayed
at X width, while the smaller ones were kept at normal size?)

max-width?

(Not widely supported yet.)

MCQ
2005-05-15, 20:42
I'm going to consider picking up a Dell 24" display at some point. I don't know how long it'll take, but I'm getting a second job that'll basically give me spending money (since my current single job is just barely enough to pay the bills). Once I save up enough money for one, they will have probably dropped in price.


Is the marginal increase in display vs the 20" really worth it though? I mean, you could have gotten the 20" Widescreen 2005fpw for $397 + tax/shipping this weekend (heck, it could still be going on right now if the promo & coupon are still valid).

Luca
2005-05-15, 20:50
Perhaps a 20" would suit me better... it would certainly be a lot lighter on the wallet. Of course, I wanted to get one primarily for gaming (since I'm fine with using my 17" LCD with my mini). But maybe then I'd be better off just buying a large, high-def TV. The problem is I think a large enough HDTV would cost even more than one of the Dell LCDs.

But yeah, my (realistic, possible) dream setup would be a 24" widescreen LCD with an XBox 360 and my mini hooked up to it. I could go with a 20" instead, or I could keep the 17" for the mini and get a TV for the console. I don't know, and I have a long time to decide since right now I have basically no money. I'm planning on using my extra time over summer to work a second job so I can save up.

chucker
2005-05-15, 21:18
Is the marginal increase in display vs the 20" really worth it though? I mean, you could have gotten the 20" Widescreen 2005fpw for $397 + tax/shipping this weekend (heck, it could still be going on right now if the promo & coupon are still valid).

It's still valid, I got one (through a friend from Boston) just a few hours ago.

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-16, 02:30
The Apple 20" may be prettier than the Dell 20", but that extra $300
could buy you a pair of 1 GB RAM sticks for some serious performance gains.

If my Dell 24" holds up for at least the 3 year warranty period, then something way cooler will be out that everyone wants anyway.

I'm just trying to be somewhat practical.

If I bring my G5 2.0 dually system up to 2 GB's of RAM, add a 2nd internal 250 GB SATA HD, M-Audio 1814, ProTools M-Powered, Logic Pro 7.1 and a new Keyboard controller, a new mixer and all the sound loops and plugins, I'm going to have plenty to keep me busy for a while after I learn how to use it.

I'm replacing almost an entire analog home studio, so I have to watch my budget.

I've spent wisely on the heart of my system, so the rest of what I need is still
an affordable reality. Ok so it might take a few months! <">

Koodari
2005-05-16, 04:11
2405fpw arrived 30mins ago and OMG IS IT HUGE OR WHAT!

When I started it up, I had not figured out how to rotate it back to horizontal. Thus, the behemoth stood vertical next to my 12" iBook which powers it.
When I got a background picture, it was a very "Space Odyssey 2001" moment. A monolith standing over 3x as high as my iBook screen...

Now, how to test for defective pixels the easiest way?

I have to step out for a while, hopefully I'll return with a PS2 component cable and then it's time for GT4 high definition testing...

cyrusmekon
2005-05-16, 05:33
Kood, how does it look with an ibook??

I am very very intrested in what you have to say about this piece of equipment. Are you using the screen spanning hack??

Do tell do tell :)

torifile
2005-05-16, 05:53
Isn't this purchasing advice?

Brad
2005-05-16, 06:08
I pity the fool that doubts Mr. T.

Moving!

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-16, 09:03
Koodari,

Glad you finally got your display! Yup that baby is HUGE!

I hope you're as thrilled as I am with the screen quality.

I would download Pixel Tester from VersionTracker or MacUpdate

Mine showed zero problems.

Koodari
2005-05-20, 10:15
Okay.. where to begin?

First thing, my setup. I connected a latest rev 12" iBook G4 with Screen Spanning Doctor in the VGA input. The Playstation2 got plugged into component input.

Pixel testing. I used the freeware Pixel Check (Pixel Tester has apparently turned shareware at some point). One dead red subpixel out of about 2 million pixels = very good, as expected. I would consider the result good even if there were several dead subpixels as long as they were not in the same pixel.

Backlight. Totally even to my eyes, as expected. In a pitch dark room, the whole thing is surprisingly bright when it's supposed to be black. I expected darker. I'll have to see again tonight how it is - this time I'll turn down the brightness.

Desktop at 1920x1200. Great, amazing. What more can I say?

Video.
Black Hawk Down, DVD, played with iBook DVD Player. Looks like crap. Where there is supposed to be a slight change of tone, there are two distinct areas of color. The Dell absolutely kills this disc.
Silence of the Lambs, DVD, played with iBook DVD Player. The effects that seemed intolerable in a minute of BHD are not present. Age shows in colors of this movie, and you do notice how the resolution is not what it could be, but this is nice to watch.
Attack of the Clones, divx or whatever ripped from DVD, 2x700MB, VLC Player. In the scrolling text in the beginning, the background is not regular space but infested with green gas monsters. :p Every artifact in the compression shows. Once past the opening credits, you do not really notice bad errors in the picture. They are there, if you look for them, but it's not at all the same as in BHD where the slow moving camera and *partly* sharp picture drew extra attention to the artifacts.
Monsters, Inc., 720p video (filetype .ts, VLC shows "mpgv" as codec), VLC Player. The iBook does not have the horsepower to run this properly - it only goes a couple fps max - but things look amazingly good and you get a good idea what the "real" experience would be like. At times the gradation effect again shows up in the background!
Because still photos look good, I suppose the gradation effect is not the fault of the Dell.

Computer gaming. Obviously I'm a bit limited in what to do with the iBook, so I have only ran World of Warcraft. I expected I could throw it into a low res widescreen mode, however when I did this with several different modes, the end result was that the Dell saw the corresponding 4:3 mode come out. I ended up gaming with 1024x768, and while it's nice, I'm missing the whole point of the display, so not happy. I don't know if the guilty party is Mobility Radeon 9200, OS X, or the Dell, but I suspect the GPU.

Console gaming. Playstation2 is a pretty old console and it shows. 480i comes out well, technically speaking, but in some games (GTA: San Andreas for instance) I might prefer not to see how poor the textures and models are. :( Now here's something that might prove to be a real problem - the Dell detects PAL correctly (576i I think) but the picture is slightly in the wrong place and the display's controls do not allow moving the picture! (Why the controls *are* in the control panel, I don't know.) This means I have to check every PS2 game I buy supports NTSC, or I have to gamble with whether the game will show in the right place. Maybe I should check this with Dell but I doubt they can help, when I was buying they were clueless even about simpler things.
Soul Calibur 2 looks quite good at 480p. What surprised me was that GT4 looks awful at 480p - okay, but not great, at the "fake" 1080i.

Koodari
2005-05-20, 17:20
So the biggest prob right now is that I don't get lower resolution widescreen. I get 1920x1200, naturally, and 1360x768 gets through correctly as well, but everything else seems to get squeezed in standard resolutions like 1024x768 and 800x600. This is what the display "sees" and shows in the OSD. Aspect ratio settings in the display allow me to stretch the picture to fill screen, and that fixes the aspect (when the original resolution output by iBook was exactly 16:10) but the display throws some of the content away, at least off the lower edge of picture. So this is no good...

Too late to contact Dell, they're closed for the weekend. Do you guys have suggestions to try?

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-21, 10:16
It seems that many of the issues you've addressed are related to the iBook
spanner hack and the resulting GPU performance tradeoffs.

I'm not sure you would see much better results using the same set-up on an Apple 23"

Even those using a direct DVI connection to a 23" display with the Mac mini
have noticed that the stock 32MB GPU is just barely enough to drive these
larger displays.

I haven't noticed any issues with the G5 2.0's stock 64MB GPU connected with the DVI cable and I expect even better performance with 128 MB
cards and higher.

The factory default brightness setting at 50% is fine with me, but you may want to trim it down just a bit if it suites you.

I know that I was used to working more " in your face" with my 17" Sony CRT, so it takes a while to remember that you can sit back and enjoy the benefits of all this screen real estate.

FFL
2005-05-21, 10:21
Thanks for making me very glad I got the Apple 20" and not a DELL...

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-21, 10:58
FFL,

No doubt, the Apple 20" is the best offereing in a 20" display for both design
and quality.

It is also the best choice for those with 32MB GPU limitations.

Had it not been for the insane deal I got on the Dell 24",
I would have also gone for the Apple 20" over the Apple 23"

FFL
2005-05-21, 11:30
I hear ya - it's not like I didn't consider the Dell, or wouldn't enjoy the 24" of the Dell and the HD resolution.

Luca
2005-05-21, 12:39
But what about the Dell 20"? That one's like half the price of the Apple.

pmazer
2005-05-21, 12:50
Half price? $750 vs $800... $50 more for a product with Apple's quality

FFL
2005-05-21, 12:54
Half price? $750 vs $800... $50 more for a product with Apple's quality
Yep. (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=320-4111&category_id=4009) Apple's recent $200 price drop made quite a difference.

Luca
2005-05-21, 12:59
Okay, not quite half price, but I see them for $500 or less fairly often. I guess the retail price is the official way to do it, but in reality you can get one for just a bit more than half of what the Apple display costs. There are no such deals on the Apple 20". The cheapest one I could find was only about $50 off retail.

EDIT: Oooh, check it out. Buy it through the "Small Business" section of the Dell online store instead of "Home Office" and it's under $600 (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&sku=320-4111&category_id=4009).

FFL
2005-05-21, 13:45
Yeah, Dell's pricing and discounts are inconsistant, to say the least, but it seems to be working for them.

Many (most?) people here get discounts off Apple's retail pricing as well, but not quite as much as that.
:eek:


EDIT: well, this has finally inspired me to take some photos of my 20" Cinema living room setup - look for them in the Setup thread very soon.

ArcticFox
2005-05-23, 11:39
Not to hijack your thread but is this a pretty good screen?

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/ProductDetail.aspx?sku=320-4113&c=us&l=en&cs=19&category_id=211&first=true&page=productlisting.aspx

Luca
2005-05-23, 14:29
The 19" UltraSharp LCD is a good quality monitor, but that price is not very good. As I said just a couple posts up, you can often save a lot of money by shopping through Dell's "Small Business" section instead of "Home & Home Office."

Check it out: http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&sku=320-4113

That's the exact same monitor, but through the Small Business store it costs only $360 instead of $480. That's a huge savings and it makes it a very good deal.

But you can do better. 19" LCDs are nice and big, but they provide the same number of pixels as 17" LCDs. So really, you don't get much benefit other than a physically larger screen area. There is no extra screen real estate. If you want a lot of extra pixels, look into the 2001FP instead. It's a 20" LCD with a 1600x1200 resolution (instead of 1280x1024). That one is $560 (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/ProductDetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=04&sku=320-1578) from the Small Business store.

If you would like to spend a bit less, I'd suggest going to NewEgg and looking at the 17" LCDs they have available. I have an Acer AL1715, a 17" LCD with both VGA and DVI connections. It only cost around $200.

ArcticFox
2005-05-23, 16:12
The 19" UltraSharp LCD is a good quality monitor, but that price is not very good.

I paid ummm $270 for that. :) Should be getting it by the end of the week if all goes well.

RowdyScot
2005-05-23, 17:58
Where might that have been for that price???

ArcticFox
2005-05-23, 18:40
http://bensbargains.net

Scroll down a ways until you find the doubled Dell coupons.

CobaltFire
2005-05-23, 20:49
One thing to note on those DVD tests:

Apple's DVD codec is currently the WORST on the market. All others pretty much make it look like crap, and that will especially be noticeable on that nice of a screen. I would not say that the problem is the monitor, but rather 1) the analog cable, and 2) Apple's crappy codec.

Try using the PS2 or another DVD player with component or DVI out and see what you get for quality.

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-27, 01:11
One way to look at this is,
if saving money on your display allows you
to buy a better equipped Apple CPU running Tiger and that combo
makes you happy then why not?

Koodari
2005-05-27, 03:47
Thanks for making me very glad I got the Apple 20" and not a DELL...If this was directed at my post/report, I'd like to note that so far I think the display has delivered all that Dell has promised. All the anomalies I have noticed can be caused by picture sources. My biggest complaint is that the display shows the faults in everything else so well!

In fact, absolutely everything I have done with it, could not have been done with the Apple display. At this time I have nothing with a DVI connection.

edit: even at 20", I would have obviously went with the Dell, which would have still had VGA, S-video and composite, so I would have gotten my iBook and PS2 attached. No component though, so no hi-def picture from PS2 - which is of limited value anyway, given how few titles support that. If they added component to the 20", it would be totally amazing.

One thing I have though of now that I've had the display for a while, is that if there are lots of wires going into the display, that makes pivoting more difficult. I don't foresee really using this in pivot mode, it's so much of a hassle to pivot it.

FallenFromTheTree
2005-05-28, 13:28
We all knew that LCD prices would fall and now we're seeing some very useful improvements as well.

The Apple displays are still ahead of everyone in aesthetic design, but
Dell has done quite well offering both features, functi
on, quality and affordability for those on a tighter budget.

I'm sure as time goes on that Apple will also continue to improve the available features of their displays and quality as the market demands.

For the time being , I think Apple's primary focus will go to the professionals who are migrating by leaps and bounds to desktop replacement portables.

I think we'll see HD quality laptop LCD's next before Apple makes any changes to their cinema displays.

In the mean time, it's all good when you're running OSX on any monitor.

Kyros
2005-05-28, 15:15
I wish I could afford a large moniter. :( Ah well, I'll stick with my cheap 17 inch Hyundai for now :lol: . One thing I have noticed, there seem to be very few 30 inch monitors. I think I saw a Sony one once, and it looked terrible compared to Apple's, and costed a good 500 dollars or so more.