General suggestions

[MACSRULETHEWORLD]

yeah, i come from the "old TS" board, and just missed a few things, first, the lack of a "fast reply" box. i don't know how hard it is to code one of those things, but just a suggestion. also, mayhaps we could have avatars. i really liked those as it helps identify the poster very quickly and adds another level of originality, or self expression.

anyway, just some thoughts. BTW, great board you have going on here, i look forward to this maturing into a well-developed community

-MRTW

[InactionMan]

I think the Fast Reply thing from the TS boards is a kick ass feature and would love to see it here. I doubt you'll see avatars here. Though things may change. Meanwhile, you can add your current avatar as your Profile Picture if you haven't done so already.

And welcome to AppleNova.

Edit-Just checked your profile...you already did it. :p

[Windows Breaker G4]

i would also like to see quick reply.

[Escher]

Quick reply good. Avatar bad. :)

Anything that speeds up the conversation should be useful. However, I find Avatars terribly distracting. More importantly, Avatars slow load times, just like big signatures with inline images.

Escher

PS: It's good to see more faces from the "old TS" boards.

[drewprops]

Yes, avatars are bad...as are screen names in all caps! :p

[Bones3D]

Just out of curiousity... why the anti-avatar sentiment? I noticed the forum software does allow the user to set whether or not avatars are visible when viewing a thread. As long as the avatars aren't being hosted by the forum server, there shouldn't be any local bandwidth issues.

I'd say enable them, then just let the user decide whether or not to show them... that way everyone gets what they want. :)

[DMBand0026]

avatars = bad

quick reply = ugly and pointless

[Windows Breaker G4]

You know i am starting to think bones MRTW other TS members maybe this is not the place for us.

[synotic]

Just out of curiousity... why the anti-avatar sentiment? I noticed the forum software does allow the user to set whether or not avatars are visible when viewing a thread. As long as the avatars aren't being hosted by the forum server, there shouldn't be any local bandwidth issues.

I'd say enable them, then just let the user decide whether or not to show them... that way everyone gets what they want. :)I think they're referring more to the load time for people who browser the forums.

Although you make an interesting point about allowing the user to make the choice. If that were to happen, I think that avatars should be off by default. Would make everyone happy.

quick reply = ugly and pointlessHow exactly is it "ugly"? There's not set look to a quick reply box and it can be integrated cleanly into the current design. I don't see how it's pointless, for people that make a lot posts it's easier to not have to load another page just to make a reply.

Also I'm sure we'll never see this.. but it would be nice if quoting multiple people could be facilitated... i.e. adding quote buttons on the topic review below that would use javascript (same as the smilies) to add the quote to the bottom of the post. But that would probably be a little used feature, so I don't see it coming any time soon.

And is it impossible to get around where the text area gets scrolled up when you add a smiley? Is that a browser thing or just bad coding on vB's part?

Edit:

You know i am starting to think bones MRTW other TS members maybe this is not the place for us.Sorry but this just made me laugh... no avatars.. no discussion.

[DMBand0026]

You know i am starting to think bones MRTW other TS members maybe this is not the place for us.

Might I inquire as to why you think that? Granted it's not the same as the TS boards, but variety is the spice of life :)

I know some members here are very set in their ways...we know how we like things done and the way we like our boards to look, but don't let that scare you off. We're glad to have you here.

[LoCash]

I'm actually a fan of the quick reply box, and in vBulletin you can even "windowshade" the quick reply box. vB sets that to a cookie so it remembers to hide it on future visits. I'm going to go enable it right now, because I forgot it was a feature in vB3. As for avatars, there is a long standing history of avatars with this community.

When we admin'd AppleInsider.com, we chose not to allow avatars because they clashed too heavily with the design of the site; mostly an aesthetic issue, but also modem users chimed in with bandwidth complaints.

You can have avatars here though. As soon as you hit 10,000 posts, they're all yours :)

[oldmacfan]

I'm actually a fan of the quick reply box, and in vBulletin you can even "windowshade" the quick reply box. vB sets that to a cookie so it remembers to hide it on future visits. I'm going to go enable it right now, because I forgot it was a feature in vB3. As for avatars, there is a long standing history of avatars with this community.

When we admin'd AppleInsider.com, we chose not to allow avatars because they clashed too heavily with the design of the site; mostly an aesthetic issue, but also modem users chimed in with bandwidth complaints.

You can have avatars here though. As soon as you hit 10,000 posts, they're all yours :)
sweet, I love this feature.

[DMBand0026]

<sees quick reply>

<shudders>

<searches franticly for a way to turn it off>

ahhhh, life is good again :)

[psgamer0921]

Quick reply good. Avatar bad. :)

Anything that speeds up the conversation should be useful. However, I find Avatars terribly distracting. More importantly, Avatars slow load times, just like big signatures with inline images.

Escher

PS: It's good to see more faces from the "old TS" boards.
Well, the Apple support forums seemed to pull it off relativley well

[oldmacfan]

<sees quick reply>
<hits the icon>
<types fast message>
ahhhh, life is getting better by the minute

[DMBand0026]

Some places do, some don't. I for one would hate to see them here. I'm all about things being simple. Grey background, black boarders, black text, greyish links. It's all part of a theme, and a great looking one at that. I would hate to come onto AN someday and see everyone with an avatar...it's nothing more than an assault on the eyes.

I think the 10,000 post rule is cool, because those members who have been around long enough to get to 10,000 obviously know how to conduct themselves in an appropriate and mature enough way to keep the avatar within reasonable limits.

[Bones3D]

When we admin'd AppleInsider.com, we chose not to allow avatars because they clashed too heavily with the design of the site; mostly an aesthetic issue, but also modem users chimed in with bandwidth complaints.

You can have avatars here though. As soon as you hit 10,000 posts, they're all yours :)

Interesting thought, but as synotic said, having them turned off by default would address those issues. ;)

Just out of curiousity, (and forgive me if I'm reading into this the wrong way) what is with the sarcasm over this? It is a perfectly legitimate concern and one that the nearly 2,000 users I'm probably sending your way are going to be asking about later on.

The gist of this, is that software should always conform to the user's needs, not the other way around. Mac users have come to expect that. :|

[Paul]

I think the 10,000 post rule is cool, because those members who have been around long enough to get to 10,000 obviously know how to conduct themselves in an appropriate and mature enough way to keep the avatar within reasonable limits.


:lol: HAHAHAHAHAHHA
sure...

[InactionMan]

Quick Reply Rules! What is there to complain about DMBand??? Krikey!

[autodata]

I think the 10,000 post rule is cool, because those members who have been around long enough to get to 10,000 obviously know how to conduct themselves in an appropriate and mature enough way to keep the avatar within reasonable limits.
:lol: HAHAHAHAHAHHA
sure...
:lol:

Yeah, no kidding. Go check out other boards. 8000+ post folks (particularly those who aren't admins or mods) are sometimes some of the worst.

And I've always hated avatars. They are just a fashion statement. The content of the posts should be the center of attention.

[InactionMan]

I think DMBand just wants to be the first one with an avatar.
Hey, how do I get smilies in a quick reply???

I say give 'em avatars. If people that loath them don't have to see them then who cares???

Holy Crap! Quick reply is awesome!

[Luca]

I would like to see a "Direct Link" button somewhere on posts. That way, you can send someone directly to the post you want them to see, without having to tell them "Look for the fourth one down, er wait, I think the fifth one, well, it's the first that user XXXXX posted in this thread..." I just noticed that MacNN has one. Nice feature.

[Paul]

I think DMBand just wants to be the first one with an avatar.
Hey, how do I get smilies in a quick reply???

I say give 'em avatars. If people that loath them don't have to see them then who cares???

Holy Crap! Quick reply is awesome!
memorize the code... ;)

and luca, right on. I've wanted a direct link button for a while now, I'd say like 6 months before the split. It would be a most welcome addition.

[Bones3D]

I would like to see a "Direct Link" button somewhere on posts. That way, you can send someone directly to the post you want them to see, without having to tell them "Look for the fourth one down, er wait, I think the fifth one, well, it's the first that user XXXXX posted in this thread..." I just noticed that MacNN has one. Nice feature.

Actually, posts do have a tag in them already... the only pain of it is checking the page source for them. Anyway you want to look for the following:

<td class="alt2" style="border-bottom: 1px black solid;">
<!~~ status icon and date ~~>
<a name="post10855">

So to link it:

http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=742#post10855

Not exactly efficient, but it works.

[Luca]

I am aware. I've looked in the source to get individual post links before, but it's usually quicker just to count the number of posts and say that it's the Xth post from the top/bottom or whatever. The idea of a direct link button is the convenience. Opening the source is no more convenient than telling someone exactly which post to look for.

[Windswept]

Just my opinion, okay?

When I joined AI.com, the very 'first' thing I did was comment in the suggestion forum that it would be nice to have avatars. I was used to them from my previous board.

But then I got used to 'not' having them. Now, when I go back for quick visits to my old board (I was a mod there), the avatars - especially the ones in motion - drive me crazy. They are so *incredibly* distracting.

These boards look SO much classier in comparison. I don't think anyone meant any sarcasm, honestly. There are some great people here - fun, nice and really smart. I hope you guys will stick around and give this place a chance. We are happy to have new members, and hope you settle in comfortably.

Wrt replies: what I like about the 'normal' reply is that you can preview it. I always spot typos, etc., in the preview, and it makes for a more accurate post. But I used the quick reply a few minutes ago, and that was handy too. It's nice to have both. :)

[Brad]

The gist of this, is that software should always conform to the user's needs, not the other way around. Mac users have come to expect that. :|Welcome aboard, Bones. :)

As LoCash said, it has always been in the overwhelming majority of our members' opinion that avatars are bad for the forums. AI had a long running history as being one of the "best looking forums" by a number of folk. The color scheme was muted and easy on the eyes and there wasn't a lot of bright colors jumping out in random places. AppleNova has a similar clean, muted design. Avatars are inconsistent and unpredictable and will break that "clean" theme terribly. If you doubt this, I can point you to several forums with hideously tacky avatars and signature images. On top of that are bandwidth issues regarding 3rd-party-hosted avatars (404s, timeouts, slow servers, etc.).

Would the option to toggle display help? Perhaps, but in the long run would end up a burden on the mods and admins who would have to browse with avatars on in order to watch and moderate them. Since the staff here hates the delayed load time and fugly, inconsistent look of avatars, that's not likely to happen. ;)

As for the direct "link to post" links, that's actualy been on my to-do list for a long time! I should finally have time to implement that (and some other things) when I'm back in Raleigh next week.

[Bones3D]

Thanks for the welcome, Brad. :)

The reason the avatar issue is being raised, is due to the fact that they actually make threads easier to read to some users. Rather than having a blur of similar looking text for pages on end, the avatars make it much easier to identify who wrote what post... especially for users who have grown used to it for the last few years.

While I'm not saying they should be turned on by default globally, I am suggesting the option should at least be made available to those who want it. Others can simply elect not to enable them in their user preferences. There would be no risk of "404s, timeouts, slow servers, etc." for anyone who doesn't choose to use avatars.

As for how to keeping an eye on annoyances, just don't actively look for them. ;)

Instead, simply let the users come to you if they notice a problem. I can't begin to tell you how many hours of trouble I've saved myself by letting the users self-moderate. Eventually the userbase finds common ground and starts working together as a community.

I understand that the majority here is currently against avatars... but consider how they became the majority. Let me give you a couple quotes from a thread made earlier today on the TS board:

I joined but i don't know i feel kinda lost there :\ I dislike the fact there are no avatars that is for sure.

as have i! the avatar thing really annoyed me, i started a thread and was told that there would not be any avatars cause it slows down the board. i dont know about you, but i've surfed this forum with a 56K connection without any problems.

They seem hard set against it. I am thinking maybe we do not belong there.

Yea i am sorry but i am not going anywhere i can not have an avatar. I'm sorry that is just to weird.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting the current sentiments toward avatars are necessarily wrong, but I am saying the decisions not to have them should definitely be reconsidered. Without it, you're ignoring a large segment of your potential user base. :/

[_Ω_]

Poll?

[autodata]

I am aware. I've looked in the source to get individual post links before, but it's usually quicker just to count the number of posts and say that it's the Xth post from the top/bottom or whatever. The idea of a direct link button is the convenience. Opening the source is no more convenient than telling someone exactly which post to look for.
I've always just taken the post ID from the link url in the status bar when hovering over report post or reply.

However, direct link would be very welcome.

[Luca]

Actually, I'm starting to warm up to the idea of avatars. There are advantages and disadvantages of course, but I don't think that causing a slowdown is a disadvantage. Take MacNN for instance. They allow a single 140x40 image to be put in your signature... and that's it. 140x40 pixels is like 4 kb. For a 56 kbps connection, that's one extra second for each unique avatar. But there's always caching of course, which will speed it up. Plus, if there's an option to disable them, I don't see why it's a problem.

On the other hand, avatars can be bad because sometimes you may associate someone entirely with their avatar. Then, if they change it, you can get pretty confused and wonder where the original person went (I'm speaking from personal experience here, please don't laugh!). Also, there's the argument that it presents a cluttered look, which could be an issue here at AN since we're always trying to make our site look really clean and polished. Unlike MacNN, which is terribly ugly, our site might actually degrade in aesthetic quality from the use of avatars.

I think it's silly to refuse to visit a forum just because they don't use avatars. MacNN is my second most-visited forum on the interweb, and I keep reading and posting there somewhat regularly, even though their "View New Posts" listing is terrible (doesn't let you go the the first unread post, or see who posted the last reply) and they have eleventy billion different forums.

[Bones3D]

I think it's silly to refuse to visit a forum just because they don't use avatars. MacNN is my second most-visited forum on the interweb, and I keep reading and posting there somewhat regularly, even though their "View New Posts" listing is terrible (doesn't let you go the the first unread post, or see who posted the last reply) and they have eleventy billion different forums.

Well, it all comes down to usability over visual asthetics. The same issues apply to all forms of user interfaces... such as the Finder and the Terminal in Mac OS X. Both are a compromise of the other, yet having the ability to use both benefits everyone. However, expecting people to adjust to one simply because they can use the other isn't realistic.

This is why software needs to conform to the users, instead of forcing the users to adapt to the software's shortcomings.

[autodata]

Take MacNN for instance.
Which looks absolutely awful.

Take everything bad about post counts, subtract any necessary effort, add the imposition of Little Timmy's obsession with britney spears, love for Dubya or misguided "sense" of "design" and you have an avatar. Now multiply it by, what, 40 per page?

The usability argument doesn't work, either. Go to macnn, or anywhere with decent traffic, and it's clear avatars make it busier and more difficult, particularly when mixed with real images related to the actual post content. Not to mention that fashion statements and unnecessary graphic additions are by definition the antithesis of usability, particularly in computing.

Last, I know a correlation is not a cause, but it's undeniable that there is a correlation between avatars and overall board immaturity/irrelevance. Let's go back to macnn. When was the last time people were posting actual useful information outside of the GUI forum? The subject of a 15 page thread there can often be condensed into 3 pages at AI, and now AN, and still end up providing far more useful information.*

Anyway, that's my avatar rant. I know of only two decent forums that have them, sonikmatter and osxaudio, and both of them are gearhead forums, thereby discouraging just anyone to come in and post nonsense.

*Of course, part of the problem is that 30%+ of the threads at macnn consist of just the same elementary information being repeated over and over as new threads are created by people too lazy to use search, something that's gone on for years there. Then again, it basically is the switchers' first stop.

[Luca]

I agree. MacNN is in shambles. The sheer volume of noobs posting worthless questions that would be easily answered by a search is enough to do some major damage to the forums. Combine that with the fact that the search function there is slow and unreliable, and only lets you do one search every thirty seconds. Then you have the issue of how the boards go down every night between 3:30 and 4:00 AM (that's my time, US Central), meaning that people on the other side of the world have a daily half-hour blackout.

No, I don't want to be more like MacNN. Then again, you can't pin avatars down as the reason why MacNN is like it is. Their system is better than many, because at least they're strict about how large it can be. A lot of forums have basically no limit to how big your sig is, and I've seen some pretty amazingly huge sig images around.

[Res]

I really like avatars when they are limited in size (say 80 x 80 pixels) and are not animated. I've always found them useful (it is so much easier to find my last post in a thread by scanning for my avatar than scanning for my name).

If they are not hosted by the BBS server, and users could turn them on or off via their preferences, I don't see how allowing them could hurt anything.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

[InactionMan]

I think if the user has the option to turn them on or off and they are limited by size then it's hard to make the argument that they are any more of a visual distraction then coloured, animated smilies or long, coloured sigs.

[Escher]

I know a correlation is not a cause, but it's undeniable that there is a correlation between avatars and overall board immaturity/irrelevance.

autodata hits the nail right on the head. The correlation between avatars and immaturity is the single most important reason to avoid avatars completely. Even just allowing the option opens the door too far.

Let 1984 be like 1984! :) I add a smiley in the hope of reducing offense, but I am serious. Most expressions of individuality, especially avatars, detract from the substance of posts.

Escher

[psgamer0921]

I say that we have an option of wether or not to display avatars, but everyone can have them.

[LoCash]

I'm sorry that some of the folks from the pstheme.com boards feel that our position on not allowing avatars is arrogant, and that simply because we do not have the avatar option turned on that this board absolutely will not work out for them. If the decision as to whether or not a message board is a good one is based so highly upon whether or not that board allows a user to display an avatar, then I will probably have to agree that this board isn't going to work out for you.

The avatar argument is nothing new amongst the administrators here. We debated the issue for years at AppleInsider.com, and people stayed because they liked the board and the people, and did not leave simply because we disallowed a small, usually visually displeasing, image that would display on every post they make.

I'm sorry some of you feel it is us being arrogant. I'm not sure that is the right word, but you guys picked it. We don't have any plans to allow avatars, and again, if you judge a good board based on this feature alone, then you do need to find another home, because we rate our board on the community, and if you don't, you may not be comfortable here.

[curiousuburb]

So who wins the pool on "How long before we get a thread asking for avatars"?

[LoCash]

This isn't the first thread asking about avatars in AppleNova's history. Try searching ;)

[Bones3D]

Look, LoCash... nobody here is accusing you of being arrogant for not having them. I'm trying to make a point that if you refuse to allow flexibility in your forum software so it can conform to your userbase, while trying to uphold some fool-hearted ideal, this forum is ultimately going to fail. The fascination of Think Secret linking to something new isn't going to last forever.

The software here allows for both avatar and user-specific blocking in each user's preference panels. It is well within each user's ability to block out the things they don't like. If you're users are to lazy to actually use these features, then shouldn't it be their own damned problem?

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by ignoring a large part of your potential user base, but I'm doubting it has anything to do with the maturity level of your users as some have suggested. After all, having things like this (http://www.applenova.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=2) on the AppleNova home page, and having an entire forum (http://forums.applenova.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3) devoted to your pissing contest with AI, would make that position very hypocritical at best.

At any rate, I'm not just coming to you as a forum admin of another board, but as a user. You may not agree with the points I make, but you shouldn't be so quick to ignore them because of it. Many of the users that have helped me with the development of the Think Secret forum were also ones I initially wanted nothing to do with. Trust me, I know what it's like to be in your shoes and having a "newbie" become a thorn in your side. But I can guarantee you the worst thing you can do is ignore it. Your forum cannot evolve if you don't listen to the voice of the users.

Anyway, if anything I've said here still hasn't sunk in by now, it probably never will. The only thing I can do now is say I tried and move on. I can't help anyone who is so blinded by their own personal biases, that they refuse to listen to the very people they represent. :\

[MACSRULETHEWORLD]

look, here's a good page with a wide variety of avatars. i do not find the avatars distracting. it actually doesn't look that bad with the Liquid theme shown there:

http://www.pstheme.com/cgi-bin/think/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=18;t=1603

[HOM]

look, here's a good page with a wide variety of avatars. i do not find the avatars distracting. it actually doesn't look that bad with the Liquid theme shown there:

http://www.pstheme.com/cgi-bin/think/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=18;t=1603

Um, I don't know what you find distracting, but these sure bother me:

NoodleMcFoodle's

http://www.seizurerobots.com/tall1.gif

HolyCrap's

http://www.sheepondrugs.net/misc/Hippo_Cowbell.gif

oliekirk's
http://homepage.mac.com/oliekirk/birdcopy.gif


I mean isn't the entire point of avatars to be distracting so you'll look at their name?

I do understand the desire to have them and I have no real reasons why .org shouldn't have them as long as we can turn them off and they are off by default.

Hey oliekirk. Think it's funny? I can see this is going to be a wonderful merger. However, I do understand why Nick would kick you to the curb.

EDIT: Perhaps we could commission one of our talented graphic artists to work up some mock-ups based on our user names. No flashy graphics, no animations, just a nice well done rendition of the name.

EDIT II: I edited the edit.

EDIT III: I'm not Quagmire.

[Windows Breaker G4]

Noodle's is annoying i will give you that, but the other 2 i do not find annoying.

[curiousuburb]

look, here's a good page with a wide variety of avatars. i do not find the avatars distracting. it actually doesn't look that bad with the Liquid theme shown there:

http://www.pstheme.com/cgi-bin/think/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=18;t=1603
You're kidding, right?

Blinking lime and yellow transformer dude?
(scaled by the board, not sized right by user if you open him in new tab)

[Windows Breaker G4]

You guys are picky. not the right size, yes his is annoying but other then his the rest are tame and very livable. I count on avatars to cue me on who is talking.

[Windows Breaker G4]

i get the feeling olie is mad at you guys

[HOM]

i get the feeling olie is mad at you guys
I get the feeling that he's an immature bitch.

[Windows Breaker G4]

I get the feeling that he's an immature bitch.
No he is just pissed about you not liking his avatar :rolleyes:

[alcimedes]

if there's a way to select from a preset number of tasteful avatars, set to off by default, i might consider it.

but every forum i've ever seen that has avatars on looks like crap, and i'm going to be the one who has to look at them every day i'm at the forums if people get to pick their own.

and i don't trust people to have good taste.

spart?

although, this should be open to anyone. if you guys want to have avatars, can you point to some small, tasteful ones that go with the boards color theme?

[MACSRULETHEWORLD]

Atom Boy's:
http://fps01.plala.or.jp/~nmec/images/TS/avatar.gif

Professor Pepper's
http://homepage.mac.com/thegallopingmajor/.Pictures/avatar2.jpg

PowerBook's
http://www0.info.apple.com/images/discussions/Images/bapple/glyphs/keyboard.gif

defaultmike's
http://www.defaultmike.hpg.ig.com.br/avatar.jpg

ChevMalfet's
http://www.footballfunhouse.com/images/cropped-elephant.jpg

[alcimedes]

well, IMO anything the blinks, flashes, moves etc. wouldn't make the final cut.

avatars and sig. images makes a site hard on the eyes in my experience.

i don't want it to seem like this is a dead discussion, but it reminds me of the "OSX on x86" type of dicussions that crop up every now and again. everyone thinks it would be a good idea, but it just doesn't work out.

try the boards for a bit w/o avatars and see if you get used to it. i know going someplace where things look different is always odd, but we feel that keeping avatars out helps with the flow of the site and people's posts.

[MACSRULETHEWORLD]

well, IMO anything the blinks, flashes, moves etc. wouldn't make the final cut.

avatars and sig. images makes a site hard on the eyes in my experience.

i don't want it to seem like this is a dead discussion, but it reminds me of the "OSX on x86" type of dicussions that crop up every now and again. everyone thinks it would be a good idea, but it just doesn't work out.

try the boards for a bit w/o avatars and see if you get used to it. i know going someplace where things look different is always odd, but we feel that keeping avatars out helps with the flow of the site and people's posts.

ok, i've surfed the PSTheme forum for around a year, and i can attest, as can many others, that avatars do not get in the way of the post as long as they are not obscenely large (Bones keeps the max set to 64x64) even noodle's is not really that bad, really.

[tallslacker]

Hey oliekirk. Think it's funny? I can see this is going to be a wonderful merger. However, I do understand why Nick would kick you to the curb.

Hello.
I'm actually a mod from Thinksecret. And olie.. is well let's just say one of our more difficult members. :p And one of the younger ones at that. There are a lot of members who I think (IMHO) who would make the transition from Bones board to this board quite smoothly. I think some people [cough] aren't really quite comfortable with change and some people just like to make a fuss about things.

I, myself, am a bit apprehensive of having Bones board died. :( I really do love the board, the people (the good, bad and ugly :lol: ) ,Bones and just everything about it. But please don't let one person's immature behavior effect what you think of everyone on Bones board. I'm very good friends with a lot of senior members and people who frequent the board quite regularly.

[autodata]

look, here's a good page with a wide variety of avatars. i do not find the avatars distracting. it actually doesn't look that bad with the Liquid theme shown there:

http://www.pstheme.com/cgi-bin/think/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=18;t=1603
You can't possibly be serious.

[alcimedes]

lol, don't worry. we could probably do a member swap and you wouldn't even notice that olie was gone. ;)

of course, every board has to start with young'uns, otherwise you'll never go anywhere.

there are always growing/merging pains when two boards collide.

[LoCash]

Look, LoCash... nobody here is accusing you of being arrogant for not having them. I'm trying to make a point that if you refuse to allow flexibility in your forum software so it can conform to your userbase, while trying to uphold some fool-hearted ideal, this forum is ultimately going to fail. The fascination of Think Secret linking to something new isn't going to last forever.

We ran AppleInsider rather successfully for over five years without allowing avatars. It was probably one of the best run messageboards, and we were hailed for the aesthetic qualities of the board as well as community nurturing nature of the mods/admins. If you look through the Feedback forum here I think you will find that dozens of suggestions for features have been submitted here, and we have considered them, and often implemented them. Anyone that has been on AppleInsider or AppleNova for any period of time will not be able to in good faith say that we have not tried to be as flexible as possible with our members.

If the Avatar feature is going to be a make or break thing for people, and I find it hard to believe that avatars are just so important to people that they would leave a board because of it, then I would not hold your breath waiting for them here. This is one issue where myself, Brad, and alcimedes have always said no during the countless years we ran AppleInsider.

Furthermore, the success of this site isn't based on having Nick link to us anymore than the success of this site is based on whether or not we have avatars. So your comment about the 'fascination' of ThinkSecret wearing off isn't necessarily relevant.


The software here allows for both avatar and user-specific blocking in each user's preference panels. It is well within each user's ability to block out the things they don't like. If you're users are to lazy to actually use these features, then shouldn't it be their own damned problem?

vBulletin has a lot of wonderful features, a handful of which we do not use. Even though members would have the option of turning off avatars, some may never know it exists, and Mods/Admins are unable to turn that off. Since users are responsible for uploading their own avatars, the mods/admins HAVE to have them on in order to moderate them in case anything abusive or offensive is uploaded. I've seen the avatars people choose on messageboards, and they don't exactly match the design of the board very well.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by ignoring a large part of your potential user base, but I'm doubting it has anything to do with the maturity level of your users as some have suggested. After all, having things like this (http://www.applenova.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=2) on the AppleNova home page, and having an entire forum (http://forums.applenova.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3) devoted to your pissing contest with AI, would make that position very hypocritical at best.

Bones, you're mistaken here on two counts. First, if you think I'm trying to prove something by keeping the avatar feature from being turned on, you're wrong. When I want to make some sort of statement, I'll be a bit more grandiose than attempting to prohibit people from uploading hideous low resolution images to our board. Second, I have no idea what percentage of the userbase really wants avatars. Before the ThinkSecret switch, this community had the avatar debate, and we voted against it. So far I have heard from three members of your community, and that doesn't put the pro-avatar crowed close to the majority.

Also, everyone here has moved on from the split from AppleInsider. You weren't here when it happened, you weren't involved with it before it happened, so if you want to start pointing the hypocrite stick at someone, take a look at who is holding it first.


At any rate, I'm not just coming to you as a forum admin of another board, but as a user. You may not agree with the points I make, but you shouldn't be so quick to ignore them because of it. Many of the users that have helped me with the development of the Think Secret forum were also ones I initially wanted nothing to do with. Trust me, I know what it's like to be in your shoes and having a "newbie" become a thorn in your side. But I can guarantee you the worst thing you can do is ignore it. Your forum cannot evolve if you don't listen to the voice of the users.

You're coming to me as a forum admin from another board, and you walked into this thread with more respect from me than anyone else suggesting it. You also continued to stand up about the issue, which, even if you don't realise it, netted you more respect. You also lost a few points in the preceding paragraphs of this last post you made, but that not withstanding...

We listen to the community here more than you think we do. The admins of this board were largely responsible for the establishment, development, and longevity of the AppleInsider forums. As I've mentioned before, they're some of the best community driven forums on the web, even if they're not for everybody. (and they're not.) The founders of this board broke from AppleInsider because we were unable to address the needs of the community. The community cried out for removal of the awful banner ads, among other issues, incessantly. The only way we could do anything for them was to build our new boards, which we did. It wasn't a pissing contest, despite how hard some wanted to make it one.

We do take what the members want into consideration, and just because we're shrugging off avatars with you does not by any account mean that we're going to shrug off every suggestion and continue denying people things. You guys asked for a quick reply box, and who made it happen? I did. Even though one of our original members bitched, it's a worthwhile, functional feature that was easily and effectively implementable.

But avatars are a new ballgame. I've seen the avatars on your board. They're often poorly shrunk down icons of larger images and don't necessarily have the most pleasing visual aesthetic to them, nor do they seem like they would really complement the aesthetic here. I actually cut and pasted some avatars into the Photoshop composite we have for this site's interface. It didn't exactly make me want to run to the control panel to enable them. I worry about a deteriorating aesthetic if we were to allow the hundreds of members we have to begin uploading their own icons.

Anyway, if anything I've said here still hasn't sunk in by now, it probably never will. The only thing I can do now is say I tried and move on. I can't help anyone who is so blinded by their own personal biases, that they refuse to listen to the very people they represent. :\

Bones, you and your members that walked into this thread get the impression that just because we don't want to enable avatars, we don't want to listen to you guys. If that doesn't say, "I'm pouting because I don't get my avatars" I don't know what does. One of your guys asked for a quick reply box, I made it happen. If you start tossing out other suggestions, we'll consider them. The avatar debate, if you want to toss the word into our search engine OR the search engine at appleinsider.com, is a hot one. You walked into something that has been discussed to no end already. If this were a new idea we'd treat it differently.

I've also had discussions with the other admins about it because of how forceful you and your few members that are speaking up have been. We're willing to evaluate some ideas to satisfy you guys, but we're going to evaluate them on our private non-production server first.

Being insistent on something does have an effect here, but getting all dramatic and emo about it does not. This last paragraph I quoted above... Blinded by my own personal biases? Come on, it's not just me. Ask the 240 members on this board before the ThinkSecret change happened. You cannot please all of the people all of the time, and I don't pretend like I can. We try to make as many people as happy as we can here, and unfortunately you're in the minority on the avatar debate. That doesn't mean that the majority of the board is, it means you are; ergo I am acting in the interest of providing to most happiness to as many people as I can.

Tell you what though, we'll have another poll about avatars, and we'll solicit some feedback there about how to incorporate them in such a way that it would be beneficial to both sides. I'm doing my best to accommodate you guys, so don't keep pissing on me with subtle attacks above :p

[Bones3D]

alcimedes, thank you. That would certainly be a step toward the right direction. However, there are a few problems with that:

First, the definition of "tasteful"... that is a personal item that no two people will agree on. For example, lets look at the current emoticon set here... you have several that are animated and varied in color. There is no unified look to them. However, if you look at the emoticon set we have, there is a common theme and color to all of them and only two of which are animated. Obviously, our definitions of "tasteful" vary greatly.

Second, by hosting the avatars locally, you will be unnecessarily consuming your own bandwidth, tying up the server and eventually slowing down your forum as more users are added. Unlike external avatars, the performance hit would affect all users globally, regardless of whether or not they have avatars enabled.

Finally, having a limited set of pre-defined avatars doesn't solve the inherent problem. How do you make it easier for someone to identify a user by the avatar if 20 people have the exact same thing? If anything, it would further convolute the discussions more than without them.

Anyway, I do understand where your coming from though. Animated .gif and flash based avatars can be (and often are) annoying. However, if you limit the file format to simply allow .jpg files only, you would eliminate that problem.

You have to understand that all users have personalities that define who they are. If it doesn't show up as an avatar, it will eventually show up elsewhere, such as the username, the sig and in the overall wording of their posts. By limiting everything to text only, you're likely to get a flood of users coming through that will have usernames and sigs entirely in 1337-speak or something else equally annoying.

At any rate, the ability to have a personality is what makes these places enjoyable to the users. It's an escape from our usually drab and mundane lives. And really, is having a personality really that bad? ;)

[alcimedes]

however, if the avatars aren't locally hosted, how do you keep people from putting whatever they want as avatars?

[LoCash]

Let's move the avatar discussion to the new thread I created for it :) We'll hear this one out, but let's move it over to the proper thread now. If you guys have any other general suggestions, let's keep 'em coming here.

[Bones3D]

LoCash, thank you for the honest reply.

Nobody is necessarily "pouting" about it, but this sudden change has unnerved a lot of the users over on the board. We realize from our past experiences with Nick that subtlety in forum change is not his strong point... it never has been.

Right now, I'm trying very hard to smooth the transition from the current forum to here for them, but without having anyone here willing to compromise on a few things, it's making the task extremely difficult on both myself and the users caught in the middle of it.

It basically comes down to one final question... are you taking on the Think Secret forum duties solely for the name recognition, or are you looking to take in the userbase that is already loyal to that name as well?

I can't facilitate the transition completely by myself. I need your help if this is going to work.

[Bones3D]

Hmm, ok... I just read that a poll was made for avatars while typing the above. Sorry if it's a bit "dated" ;-P

[Windows Breaker G4]

SOmething else i need addressed are the colors. I honestly can hardly read the quick reply box. The light grey on white is poor taste, it should be dark grey or black. This is a big change. You guys are much different from us. Seem to be very strict ridged and with out much forgiveness. I feel it is very "cold" here. THere seems to be no sense of brotherhood. :\

[709]

Gah. I loathe avatars.

If they were simple, tasteful, smallish images...maybe even in greyscale or duotone...fine. But the sad fact of it is that most people who want to be 'noticed' on a forum rely first on an ugly-assed-blinkenlight-from-hell avatar and second on their post quality.

Back in the days of yore I joined the boards at MacNN, MacRumors, TS, AI, etc. I've probabably amassed a full baker's dozen of posts combining all forums sans AI. At AI I broke into the thousands. Why? Well, I don't know exactly. The people, the posts, the mods/admins, the cleanliness of the site...who knows. What I do know is that the look/feel/posts of the other boards did not suit me at all.

Like Bones3D said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Well, I think this place is beautiful.

Spart is working diligently on a new smilie set (the ones from TS are horrible, BTW) and there's promise of a site facelift in the coming weeks. What's not to like?

This site should, above all else, be EASY to enjoy. There are absolutely phenominal people here. Learn, converse and laugh with them. :)

[alcimedes]

SOmething else i need addressed are the colors. I honestly can hardly read the quick reply box. The light grey on white is poor taste, it should be dark grey or black. This is a big change. You guys are much different from us. Seem to be very strict ridged and with out much forgiveness. I feel it is very "cold" here. THere seems to be no sense of brotherhood. :\

maybe 'cause you're new here?

;)

[709]

Seem to be very strict ridged and with out much forgiveness. I feel it is very "cold" here. THere seems to be no sense of brotherhood. :\ You couldn't be farther from the truth. :)

Relax, grab some Chips & Dip, and stay a spell. You'll like it here. I give you my word. :)

Carol might even come round and show you her...






...teaching degree. :D

[Bones3D]

709's idea of using greyscale avatars isn't too bad. If the users could have any avatar, so long as it was in greyscale and non-moving, that could work. As i've done for the TS board in the past, I would have no problem hosting such avatars for those of us without servers.

[LoCash]

SOmething else i need addressed are the colors. I honestly can hardly read the quick reply box. The light grey on white is poor taste, it should be dark grey or black. This is a big change. You guys are much different from us. Seem to be very strict ridged and with out much forgiveness. I feel it is very "cold" here. THere seems to be no sense of brotherhood. :\
I think you'll find that what you guys may perceive as strict and unforgiving is the steadfastness of a community that already has its own ways. This community is absolutely amazing, and the only rules we really have are in our posting guidelines. Even those aren't rules, they're just our suggestions. You guys just happened to peel open an old discussion that a lot of this community feels pretty passionate about: Avatars.

As for the grey text in the quick reply box... this is vBulletin's default setting. I'll have to find the CSS class that defines it and change it, because I don't like it either. I'll probably do that this evening, thanks for pointing it out.

[Windows Breaker G4]

however, if the avatars aren't locally hosted, how do you keep people from putting whatever they want as avatars?
well you could um trust them. This is what we did at TS. And well the trust seemed to work out. :confused:

[LoCash]

LoCash, thank you for the honest reply.
Right now, I'm trying very hard to smooth the transition from the current forum to here for them, but without having anyone here willing to compromise on a few things, it's making the task extremely difficult on both myself and the users caught in the middle of it.

It basically comes down to one final question... are you taking on the Think Secret forum duties solely for the name recognition, or are you looking to take in the userbase that is already loyal to that name as well?


We didn't really hop on board with Nick for any name recognition. As you can see, we're working on developing our own site with our own 'brand'. We are excited about the ability to provide ThinkSecret readers with a solid community, and we certainly welcome any added traffic it brings; it's nice to have a steady stream of new people coming around.

In terms of absorbing your board's members, we probably should have had this dialogue much sooner, and that's partly my fault for not stepping up to the plate and initiating that. We'd love to have you guys over here, and I think beyond the avatar thing, you'll find that we're not as tightassed as we come off about the avatars

Drop me an email and we can discuss these things outside of the thread, might be easier that way.

[Bones3D]

Sounds good. I'll be sure to do that if I think of anything else. :)

[709]

709's idea of using greyscale avatars isn't too bad. If the users could have any avatar, so long as it was in greyscale and non-moving, that could work.Thanks, Bones. :) I'd be on board with that. I think greyscale avatars would be more in tune with the 'spirit' (and aesthetics) of this site as well. Maybe we could limit them to an 80x80 px size (or thereabouts), and please, for the love of god, no animation.

As a final suggestion (if indeed avatars do come to fruition), could we possibly have them under the username and/or info? I'd hate to have them underneath each person's posts. :\

[MACSRULETHEWORLD]

As a final suggestion (if indeed avatars do come to fruition), could we possibly have them under the username and/or info? I'd hate to have them underneath each person's posts. :\

oh, yeah, obviously. if you take a look at Think Secret (http://www.pstheme.com/think) you'll see that the avatars are displayed right underneath their names, and even then limited to 64x64 pixels

[propellerhead]

Thanks, Bones. :) I'd be on board with that. I think greyscale avatars would be more in tune with the 'spirit' (and aesthetics) of this site as well. Maybe we could limit them to an 80x80 px size (or thereabouts), and please, for the love of god, no animation.

As a final suggestion (if indeed avatars do come to fruition), could we possibly have them under the username and/or info? I'd hate to have them underneath each person's posts. :\
You're thinking of graphical sigs.

Those are a little different than avatars, but not by much.

[Windows Breaker G4]

You're thinking of graphical sigs.

Those are a little different than avatars, but not by much.http://macsruletheworld.spymac.net/avatars/save.gif

My avatar

http://homepage.mac.com/amerchant/save.gif
my pic in my sig

[DMBand0026]

Sorry to say, but those are both big and ugly. Keep it simple, keep it small. I still say no avatars and absolutely no sig pictures.

[tallslacker]

I love my avatar :p

http://homepage.mac.com/geekd/.Pictures/av_gas.jpg

but I'll for now just put it on my profile :smokey:
yeh it is 75 x 75 but it auto resizes to 64 just been to lazy to resize it

[Windows Breaker G4]

Sorry to say, but those are both big and ugly. Keep it simple, keep it small. I still say no avatars and absolutely no sig pictures.
I did not know this was a beauty contest :err:

[MACSRULETHEWORLD]

aye, but you cant beat the PC of DOOM!!!!
http://macsruletheworld.spymac.net/avatars/pccrash.gif

[Windows Breaker G4]

Can we please get some brighter themes then the current one too? This one is so simple and is kinda hard for me to read.

[autodata]

There are probably thousands of boards out there in cyberspace and never, ever have I even considered coming on a new board and immediately trying to convince the admin to totally transform it to look like another one.

It's never going to be exactly how you like it.

In fact, these forums are new to everyone here. It's new to the people from AI.com, it's new to the people that found it separately, and it's now new to you. Everyone else here has gotten used to it, and maybe you should try to as well before advocating big changes.

Also, is this an apple board or not? Call me crazy, but I would think a good apple board would follow some of the same UI design principles that make apple so great. This would include a simple, uncluttered, clean and unobtrusive interface that is uniform for all users.

[PowerBook]

If AppleNova has it's intention of some day becoming it's own rumor site ... that would leave ThinkSecret with no message board ... especially if AppleNova is independant from it anyway ...

So, in a nutshell, I'm saying it's kinda ... weird .. that the ThinkSecret Forum was given up for a newer forum which will be it's own website anyway ... :\

... and I still think ThinkSecret's emoticons are better. ;)

:p

[Luca]

Can we please get some brighter themes then the current one too? This one is so simple and is kinda hard for me to read.

No.

If AppleNova has it's intention of some day becoming it's own rumor site ... that would leave ThinkSecret with no message board ... especially if AppleNova is independant from it anyway ...

As far as I know, we're not planning on becoming a full-fledged rumor site. We're still deciding what to do with our front page. News items, maybe, or links to articles at TS. We've also considered things like reviews of software and hardware. But we haven't decided yet.

Oh yeah, and we're still kinda working on the emoticons on and off as well. No changes in the near future, but one of the members here is working on a new set... at least, I think so.

[PowerBook]

Oh yeah, and we're still kinda working on the emoticons on and off as well. No changes in the near future, but one of the members here is working on a new set... at least, I think so.

Weeeeeeeeeeeell ... I think some of the new users at AppleNova know of a set that this board could ... um ... *cough* adopt ... :)

It sounds like AppleNova is actually going to be fully integrated into ThinkSecret ... which is a great idea. I often wondered why the board I've known for the past two years wasn't fully integrated as the way you have described. It's just odd how one community was given up in place of a new one to begin with, when somehow the two could have merged in a different way ... I guess if Bones decides that the "forum-previously know as ThinkSecret Forum" is better off to go offline, then this would be the way to merge ...

It isn't everyday that you wake up to find your Mac community homeless. :o

:no:

Oh well ... I really miss that "burnout" emoticon TS has ...

[HOM]

It isn't everyday that you wake up to find your Mac community homeless. :o



You'd be surprised (http://forums.applenova.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3).

:lol:

[FFL]

It isn't everyday that you wake up to find your Mac community homeless. :o
I think perhaps you'd be very suprised to find out just how many people on these boards had exactly that feeling a couple months ago... :lol:

[PowerBook]

You'd be surprised (http://forums.applenova.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3).

:lol:
I think perhaps you'd be very suprised to find out just how many people on these boards had exactly that feeling a couple months ago... :lol:

That's exactly what I'm saying, so you should know exactly how we feel. ;)

[autodata]

That's exactly what I'm saying, so you should know exactly how we feel. ;)
And when the switch from .com to .org to AppleNova, everyone realized that change is good and that it's a bad idea to try to recreate the old, otherwise known as stagnation.

Get used to change. You'll find it happens a lot in life. Constantly. Just try to make sure it's for the better.

[LoCash]

Oh yeah, and we're still kinda working on the emoticons on and off as well. No changes in the near future, but one of the members here is working on a new set... at least, I think so.

That person is spart, and he'll double time it if he knows what's best for him :smokey:

[PowerBook]

And when the switch from .com to .org to AppleNova, everyone realized that change is good and that it's a bad idea to try to recreate the old, otherwise known as stagnation.

Well ... sometimes change isn't good, but I'm not saying that changing to here wouldn't be good.

Anyway ... I don't know how your situation went, since I didn't experience it, but at TS, we literally woke up yesturday and Nick dePlume relinked the ThinkSecret forum to AppleNova without any warning to us at all ... it's like ... okay ... I feel welcomed here ...

It's just odd, that's all. :\

[LoCash]

Well ... sometimes change isn't good, but I'm not saying that changing to here wouldn't be good.

Anyway ... I don't know how your situation went, since I didn't experience it, but at TS, we literally woke up yesturday and Nick dePlume relinked the ThinkSecret forum to AppleNova without any warning to us at all ... it's like ... okay ... I feel welcomed here ...

It's just odd, that's all. :\
A number of us here woke up one morning completely banned from our home forums :\

I was under the impression Nick had given you guys some notice...

[PowerBook]

A number of us here woke up one morning completely banned from our home forums :\

I was under the impression Nick had given you guys some notice...

nope :o

There was no notice from him ...

So, most of you were banned, while TS Forum was disowned. :rolleyes:

Such is life. :\

[crazychester]

nope :o

There was no notice from him ...

So, most of you were banned, while TS Forum was disowned. :rolleyes:

Such is life. :\

No. Most people weren't banned. It wasn't quite as simple as that. The details are available if you want them.

And despite claims to the contrary, some of us maintain a healthy degree of cynicism towards our Fearless Leaders.

[Windows Breaker G4]

I got a a pm here that said "What the fuck is this shit???"

[PowerBook]

I got a a pm here that said "What the fuck is this shit???"

From who?

And what were they referring to?

[PowerBook]

No. Most people weren't banned. It wasn't quite as simple as that. The details are available if you want them.

And despite claims to the contrary, some of us maintain a healthy degree of cynicism towards our Fearless Leaders.

Well, I don't know what happened with AI ...

But I thought it was rude of Nick to not say anything to the TS Forum ... we should have received notice ahead of time ... but LoCash already apologized for it ... not Nick ... ;)

[Paul]

hey guys, not that we don't want you posting or anything, but lets try to keep this thread for SUGGESTIONS only. Use this thread (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=765) for banter and general introductions or start a new thread in appleoutsider (http://forums.applenova.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10). Use this thread (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=759) for avatar comments, opinions, gripes.

Lets try to keep this thread easy to read so the admins and moderators can try to implement some of the suggestions without having to read a lot of off-topic chatter...

[Windows Breaker G4]

From who?

And what were they referring to?
It was shylock he was talking about where did the board and rants and raves go.

[Luca]

It was shylock he was talking about where did the board and rants and raves go.
*AHEM*

Read Paul's post. Converesations like this belong in AppleOutsider, not Feedback.

[Windows Breaker G4]

sorry i was just trying to reply were it would be relevant. I am very sorry :(

[shylock]

Over the course of the next month I am going to make an effort to come to like this place. While Bones' forum is still up and running I will be posting there mostly, but I will use this month to lurk around over here, make a post here and there and generally get a feel of the landscape.

I know I'm new over here and all but I think part of the transition is the way this board looks. As I understand it there are accolades that go with the aesthetic of this board, but, and I say with great respect for the people who put in lots of time to make this place run smoothly, this doesn't LOOK very Apple to me.

I didn't see an option in my preferences to change the colors, but this three-tone gray is a bit much for me. Apple is full of, if anything, blue currently but sports a wide variety of color in the Aqua interface that I think define Apple. The Red/Yellow/Green window buttons. The myriad of pre-installed desktops, the numerous colorful icons adorning my Dock; all of these things make Apple very colorful. Not only that but the option to put any picture I want as my user pic (at login) and to tweak the interface as much as I want.

Apple built OS X to be one thing above others - customize-able (is that a word?). This looks very OS 9 to me, with the platinum interface and varied grays that permeated that OS.

And think that's what is making it hard for those of us from Bones' forum to migrate here easily. I'm saying one was better than the other, just simply drawing aesthetic comparison here, but that forum was blue, bright and had the option to change the "skins" on it to a liquid look (gray) a green look and a blue look. Am I missing where that option is here? Please tell me if I am.

I understand that the aesthetics are the way they are here for simplicity sake, but Apple achieves the same simplicity without the muted tones and pervasive use of gray. Sure, Apple is heavy into this brushed metal look, but it puts enough color into the OS where the brushed metal is overpowering. The blue scroll handle, the orange snapback button in Safari, the red/yellow/green window action buttons. And that's just Safari's color.

Is there a place to change the color? I went through my Preferences, I read the FAQs and didn't find anything. Tell me I am missing something.

Well, cheers to the future...

shylock

[HOM]

No way to change the theme or the colors. That's actually one thing Apple and .org have in common. Theme'ing in OSX is a hack that can do Bad Things® if they go bad.

As for the look and feel here it's clearly based on Apple's Pro (http://www.apple.com/motion/) look.

[shylock]

HOM,

You are right. This is based on Apple's Pro interface. But, even that has color. The track listings in Motion have color. Icons have color. The pictures on the left of the screenshot have color. Not to mention any video you are playing is going to have color (unless you shoot in b/w or sepia).

Show me the color here. Emoticons? It's a start. Every single one of Apple's apps (that I've see) uses color. Address Book goes as far as using brown - a decidedly evil color for Apple. But, you can also change them if you don't like them. There are hundreds, if not thousands of different icons out there for whatever you want.

I guess that's what bugs me about the look of this place. Lack of Color.

I'm not a fan of the interface on Apple's Pro interface, but, that is just me and a matter of preference. I feel like I am walking through a room of smoke here with all the gray. Maybe it's because what I am used to in forums (at Bones' and other places on the web) is color - or at least the option to have it.

Once again, it's not my choice. I don't moderate these boards. I didn't conceive the design and I've only had like three posts here. But, I'll give it a month to see how it fits.

[thegelding]

Once again, it's not my choice. I don't moderate these boards. I didn't conceive the design and I've only had like three posts here. But, I'll give it a month to see how it fits.

good attitude and all we can ask...not every site if for every person, but trying new things is great and helps with growth and finding what you do like...

good to have you aboard

g