Mini or powermac G4?

[Mntnbkr83]

Ok, I'm on a low budget so I'm considering either the Macmini or a used powermac G4 off of ebay. I would get the higher end model and put 1 gig of thirdparty ram in it. that would come to about $700. On the other hand. The powermac G4's on ebay look very tempting because they are usually stocked with lots of goodies (ram+video card+HD). But, the processors are a little slow in the $700 range. They're around 867 and 933, some of them being dual. Let's imagine that I could get a dual 867 with 1 gig of ram and 120 gigs of HD and 64mb vram for the same price as a 1.47 1gig ram and 80gig HD and 32mb vram. I'd like to know which system would be faster. I use iPhoto extensively, and Photoshop moderatly(none of that 45 batch filters on a 500mb file, but I do have a 300mb file going right now). I also kick around in the other ilife suites and play some games. Other option: instead of dual 867, you can get the 933 single(all specs from dual 867 carry over to 933). I'd really appreciate your help in finding the best system for me. Thanks!

[Brad]

I'd go with the dual-G4 tower, especially since it has a faster and bigger hard drive and a better graphics card.

The dual 867 will beat the single 933 by a wide margin for speed in the majority of tasks.

[kretara]

I have a 1.42 mini and I'm wishing that I had kept my DP 867 MDD, even though the MDD was big and LOUD.
The Mini is a very nice machine, but it is so limited. I have replaced the 80gb HD (4200 rpm) with a 60Gb 5200 rpm HD and upped the RAM to 1GB. While these improvements have made the Mini a much nicer machine I find myself on ebay everyday looking to see what kind of deal I can get on a PM.

[Mntnbkr83]

Thanks so much for your help guys! I really appreciate it! Other comments welcome too.

[G5power]

When Apple killed the lowend G5 PM with no upgrades & a terrible price for the feature set with the PM 1.8 single I was in the same position. The all in one systems were out of the question and so I looked at the mini's several times in the stores and they looked good, but I didn't care for the lack of an upgrade path.

I found a dual 867 MDD G4 with the stock 60 GB drive, 512MB of memory and a 15 inch Apple ACD. The system had an upgraded 64MB video card. I paid less then $700 for the system. I turned around and immediately put a 160 GB 7200 RPM drive in that I found for $30 after rebate. Then the following week I found two 512MB (1 GB)memory for a total of $60 after rebate for the pair. That upgrade I followed with a DVD burner (DVR109) from Newegg for $50. These extra upgrades I mention weren't necessary to exceed the features offered on the mini's, but they illustrate the low cost upgrades that are possible with the G4's. Also it is really sweet to have the four internal hard drive bays and two optical drive bays in an attractive case.

I'll agree with the comment from kretara about the fan noise, but I've kind of learned to ignore it. I guess when I'm tired of looking at the cool looking G4 case I can move it below my desk to reduce the sound.

Meantime I'll hang onto the G4 and wait and see if Apple decides to offer a nice feature set in a reasonable priced ($1000 to 1200 range) headless system.

[Mntnbkr83]

Thanks, Where did you get your G4 system? I'm looking at ebay, but I don't have an account and I wonder if people will sell to me with little feedback. Again, more comments welcome.

[DMBand0026]

Try Small Dog (http://www.smalldog.com/), new and refurbished Macs at some pretty good prices. I've heard great things about their service too. I've never bought from them, but I know they're reputable and they won't screw you.

Edit: I looked at their selection after I posted the link and it's a little weak right now. However, if you bought a 450mhz G4 (all they have in stock now) and put in a dual G4 upgrade card and a new HD you're still looking at that $700 area.

[kretara]

$700 for a dual 450? Its worth no more than $300.
Smalldog has great service but prices on older machines are way too high. If you could find a refurb G5 from them then they will have a decent price.

Go with ebay or your local craigslist or newpaper.
I bought a MDD Dual 1.0 for $800 last night off of ebay.
I'll have my Mini available for sale later this week.
1.42Ghz, 60GB 5200 RPM HD (or 80GB 4200 RPM HD), 1GB RAM with Airport in case anybody is interested.

[Luca]

Kretara, he meant $700 after upgrades. A SINGLE 450 MHz G4 (actually, G4/400s are easier to find and cheaper, and it doesn't matter if you upgrade the processor) should only cost about $200 if it's stripped down. $200 for the base Mac, $500 in upgrades, and voila you have a $700 Mac.

I would never buy a used Mac from a vendor. If you're just looking at a basic Sawtooth machine, you should check eBay as well as online classifieds forums (MacNN, AnandTech).

Here's an example. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5791183204&category=14912&rd=1)

Here's what I'm thinking...

Stripped-down G4/400 (CD-ROM, 128 MB RAM, 10 GB hard drive, Rage 128) - $200
DVD burner - $50
768 MB RAM - $100 (NewEgg has 256 MB Crucial CL2 DIMMs for a bit over $30 each; I'd remove the original RAM and use three of these in conjunction)
120 GB hard drive - $80
Radeon 8500 - $100 if you buy new, $45 if you buy a PC one from NewEgg and flash it (it's really easy and it kind of fits with the "DIY" theme of this system)

The total cost there is under $500, so that leaves a couple hundred bucks to budget for a CPU upgrade. A 1 GHz G4 upgrade is about $200 so there's your $700 upgraded G4.

The dual 1.0 GHz G4 for $800 is a way better deal though... you don't have to upgrade nearly as many components in one of those so it probably ends up being cheaper and faster! Or at least much faster for only a little extra money.

[kretara]

Your right. Sorry!!! :(
Thats what I get for reading the post too quickly.

[Luca]

What are the specs on that dual 1 GHz by the way? $800 is an awesome deal for one.

It's probably just stock (80 GB hard drive, Radeon 9000, DVD burner, 256 MB RAM). But that's still a really good deal. You should only have to upgrade the RAM (unless that's already been done of course).

[kretara]

It was actually $875. I guess in my euphoria I forgot the $75. Still, not a bad deal.

Specs:
MDD DP 1.0 GHZ, 768MB RAM, 160GB HD, ATI Radeon 9000 Pro and it may have a superdirve - the seller wasn't sure and I don't care since I have one laying around the house anyway. Plus its in the orig box with all orig shipping contents.

[macdruid]

I've seen single 1Ghz FW800 systems go for around $700 on eBay. The FW800's are great because they have some of the newer options of a G5 (Airport Express, FireWire 800, obviously) and can later be upgraded to Dual CPU, if needed.

[Mntnbkr83]

Thanks guys. I'm just gonna wait couple more weeks 'til I get the funds, and watch the price drop too. I've been watching the $700 field for a while now, and every couple weeks, a better system gets into the slot. It's currently in the 933 area. I'm hoping on getting 1.0ghz + in the next coming weeks. Dual or not, it will still be good.

[kretara]

IMHO get the fastest dual you can afford.
I'm seeing dual 800 quicksilvers going in the $700 range. A dual 800 will be much more 'usable' than a single 1.0 for many tasks.
You might get lucky and get a dual 867 MDD for $700.

[Mntnbkr83]

So in just what applications, and in what uses does the dual kick in. I've looked at some of Macworld's speedmark tests, and the only time the dual is noticable faster is when it has to do with compression, cinema 4d and photoshop. It is true I will be using photoshop though, but it won't help me in finder starting apps quicker will it? I'm upgrading from an iMac G3, so I'm an experienced user when it comes to waiting. ;) But don't get me wrong, I DO want performance! haha, I'm so cheap....

[MCQ]

Starting app times? Does it really matter? Start the app once and never close it as many OS X users do, and the starting time becomes largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

[Mntnbkr83]

Hehe, good point. I must have iMac G3 500mhz 256ram syndrom. :(

[Mntnbkr83]

Ok, So I JUST purchased my new Powermac G4 from Small dog electronics! I think I got a really good deal. Are you ready to hear the specs? Drum Roll..... Power Mac G4 Dual 1.25 ghz w/ 256ram 80 gig HD, and a combo drive.... All for just 899!!! It came to be $921 w/ shipping. I'm really excited. I know I went over budget, but with a deal so good, I just had to... Thank you for all your help guys!

[Franz Josef]

Congrats and enjoy Mntnbkr83 :)

[Luca]

Wow, I would have never expected a used vendor like SmallDog to be selling such machines for that price! Ever check out PowerMax.com? They screw you on used systems. They want $1489 for the exact same system as yours! In fact, they're charging over $899 ($959 actually) for a single processor 733 MHz PowerMac G4. I can't believe the prices they're charging but apparently they're doing okay since they've been in business for many years.

[kretara]

Are you 100% sure its a dual?
I would call them and verify. For that price I would expect a single and according to their web site all the MDD's in that price range are single processor machines.

[Luca]

Yeah, you bought a single 1.25, not a dual. $899 still isn't TOO bad a deal, but for that much you should really be getting at least a dual 867-1000 MHz machine. Call them ASAP and see if you can return it... or just keep it, assuming you're still happy with it.

[rasmits]

Small Dog is horribly over priced. G3 iMacs for $449?!

[Mntnbkr83]

I'm almost positive that it is a dual processor. There were 2 dual processors in the 1.25ghz range... one with a superdrive/more memory. It got sold the night before I bought mine. I e-mailed Rob Amon, sales at Small dog before I bought the computer to know the full rundown on the machine. Here is the e-mail:

Hi Tomas,

What more do you want to know?

That is a G4/1.25ghz Dual Processor with 256mb o RAM, 80gb hard drive and a combo drive (Reads CD's and DVD's, burns CD's)

It has OS X 10.2 installed

[Luca]

Really? I was sure they had sold you a single processor 1.25 GHz system. Apple did make them, you know. They came out after the PowerMac G5's release. Earlier 1.25 GHz PowerMacs were only available in dual processors, first as the high-end and then as the midrange system. Once the G5s came out, Apple continued to sell OS 9-capable PowerMacs in single and dual 1.25 GHz configurations.

[Mntnbkr83]

I'm sorry what? I did not understand that. I read that they didn't make dual 1.25's but that they did. please clarify, either way, I checked at Apple-history.com (http://apple-history.com/?) to see the stats. BTW it's the firewire 800 if the link didn't come out right.(it doesn't look right)

[Luca]

If it has Firewire 800 then it is a dual 1.25 GHz. Let me clarify which MDD PowerMacs Apple has made in the past:

Mirrored Drive Door, released August 2002:
Dual 867 MHz
Dual 1 GHz
Dual 1.25 GHz

Firewire 800, released January 2003:
Single 1 GHz
Dual 1.25 GHz
Dual 1.42 GHz

MDD 2003 (OS 9 bootable, no Firewire 800), released July 2003:
Single 1.25 GHz
Dual 1.25 GHz

Only one revision of PowerMac G4s came with Firewire 800, and the only 1.25 GHz model there was a dual processor model.

[Mntnbkr83]

Well when it comes friday, I'll be sure to tell you if it is indeed a dual 1.25. That is, assuming that the DVI to VGA converter I had to buy from apple (not included with the purchase) comes before or on friday. haha! In the mean time, how does the dual 1.25 compare to apples current systems? I was thinking somwhere around the iMac. I read some forums on macworld that one of their previous speedmark tests had rated the Dual 1.42 as faster that the single processor Powermac G5's, but only in areas where it used the dual processors(who woulda thought?) I'm guessing that my new dual 1.25 will be slower in everyday tasks such as mail, safari, Preview and such, but in photoshop and compressing it will crush the iMac G5. Also, what programs take advantage of the dual processors. I know of Photoshop, and FCP. I think iMovie, but not sure. Does iphoto? Oh, and does 2 processors mean I can multitask better, or do both applications that I would multitask need to have special code to do this?

[Luca]

You bought a DVI to VGA converter from Apple? You must have gotten ripped off there, how much did they charge you? I have a drawer full of them, as do most other geeks I know.

I'd say for general use, a dual 1.25 GHz G4 should outperform any single-processor G5, but it'll fall well short of any of the dual G5s. Basically I'd put it slightly above a single 1.8 GHz PowerMac G5, but well below the dual 1.8.

[Mntnbkr83]

Eh, $20. I've got a bunch of those mini dv to VGA, but no DVI to VGA. :\ Don't mind that much... I'm just too excited, I'm upgrading from an iMac G3 500hmz, don't you see?

[Mntnbkr83]

Well, I just recieved it! It sure is a MDD, those doors are soo shiny! The package(original box as far as i'm concerned) says it's a dual processor, but I'll have to wait till I get my monitor hooked up to tell you for sure. I opened it up, and took a pic. I'll upload it soon enough.

[kretara]

Just look at the white (I think its white) label on the back of the machine. It will list the specs. If it has DP in it then you got a dual 1.25.

The dual 1.25 will be slower than a G5 dual 1.8, but so what. I use a G5 dual 2.0 at work and when I go home to my G4 dual 1.0 (MDD) I don't notice all that much difference in stuff like surfing, email etc. The only time I notice a big difference is when I look at my folding@home app and if I do some photoshop stuff.

Anyway, enjoy the computer.

[Mntnbkr83]

Weee, it's a dual! :) :D thanks for all your help guys! I really appreciate it!

[Luca]

And you, my friend, got an awesome deal! Enjoy your new PowerMac!

[macdruid]

That is a fabulous deal! The fact that it's a FW800 just makes it an even better deal, imo, because it can accept an Airport Extreme card and internal Apple OEM Bluetooth module. None of the standard MDD systems can do that. :-)