Prison workers

[Windswept]

Prisoners are being hired as call-center workers and for other types of jobs as well - all located on prison grounds.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2004-07-06-call-center_x.htm

Prisoners manufactured all the computer stations and technology furniture at my school. They came and installed everything after school hours, when no students were around. Besides all the computer work-station furniture, each classroom has a corner unit with a tv, vcr, etc. All the furniture is well-made; installations were done well.

I think the prisoners might also have painted all the shelves for our very large school library. Manufacturing and painting are, of course, done at the state prison. But the prisoners come (with guards, naturally) in their orange jumpsuits to deliver and install stuff. I saw some recently when they were assembling the newly-painted shelves in our library. There were only three of them. They seemed nice enough.

To me, all this is great. The prisoners are learning skills, the schools are getting necessary items at reasonable cost. All this seems to me a win-win situation for the taxpayer and all concerned. I would like to see these programs expanded. Better than sending (call-center) jobs overseas.

The unions don't like it, but union members are taxpayers too. They should be glad prisoners are using their time (at OUR expense) constructively. Some of the prisoners continue with those jobs after release. The program seems to have decreased prisoner recidivism in Oregon by 24%! That's a huge decrease, imo.

Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Thanks for any replies.

Carol

PS - Moogs will be glad to know I decided not to do a poll for this. :lol: haha

[Powerdoc]

Prisoners are being hired as call-center workers and for other types of jobs as well - all located on prison grounds.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2004-07-06-call-center_x.htm

Prisoners manufactured all the computer stations and technology furniture at my school. They came and installed everything after school hours, when no students were around. Besides all the computer work-station furniture, each classroom has a corner unit with a tv, vcr, etc. All the furniture is well-made; installations were done well.

I think the prisoners might also have painted all the shelves for our very large school library. Manufacturing and painting are, of course, done at the state prison. But the prisoners come (with guards, naturally) in their orange jumpsuits to deliver and install stuff. I saw some recently when they were assembling the newly-painted shelves in our library. There were only three of them. They seemed nice enough.

To me, all this is great. The prisoners are learning skills, the schools are getting necessary items at reasonable cost. All this seems to me a win-win situation for the taxpayer and all concerned. I would like to see these programs expanded. Better than sending (call-center) jobs overseas.

The unions don't like it, but union members are taxpayers too. They should be glad prisoners are using their time (at OUR expense) constructively. Some of the prisoners continue with those jobs after release. The program seems to have decreased prisoner recidivism in Oregon by 24%! That's a huge decrease, imo.

Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Thanks for any replies.

Carol

PS - Moogs will be glad to know I decided not to do a poll for this. :lol: haha

Well I don't know what to think

In one side, it's a good thing that the workers do something positive and contribute the the wealth of the community

In other side, learning a job is nice, but I don't think that all prisonners should do painting ...
There is program in prisons, where people learn real jobs.

[dmz]

It worked for the USSR Gulags---why not here? :(

[billybobsky]

It worked for the USSR Gulags---why not here? :(
you say this as if you weren't aware of our own country's abuse/over use of prison labor at bottom basement costs...

[Windswept]

Well I don't know what to think

In one side, it's a good thing that the workers do something positive and contribute the the wealth of the community

In other side, learning a job is nice, but I don't think that all prisonners should do painting ...
There is program in prisons, where people learn real jobs.
Manufacturing, painting, installation *are* actual jobs in the real world. I know they do furniture re-upholstering, maybe engine repair, and presumably other things. Hands-on jobs in occupations where later on real-world employers might take a chance at hiring a person with a prison record. Most employers probably *wouldn't* take that chance.

I was just happy that non-profit organizations like schools could benefit from the work these prisoners do, especially since prisons and schools are both funded by the state. For once, taxpayer money is being used efficiently, it seems to me. Iirc, the jobs are highly-coveted by the prisoners. They volunteer for the jobs; they aren't forced or pressured into service.

[Windswept]

It worked for the USSR Gulags---why not here? :(
From what I understand, the prisoners compete for all these jobs. But only the trustworthy ones are selected, of course.

The alternative for them is sitting around all day in a cell. I can understand why they'd love a job. I personally would love to learn woodshop skills as a hobby. If I were in prison, I think such an opportunity would be a godsend.

[Windswept]

you say this as if you weren't aware of our own country's abuse/over use of prison labor at bottom basement costs...
Billybobsky, *I* am certainly not aware of such abuse. I know prisons are over-crowded, and are pretty awful places in some states. But I'm not aware of prisoners being 'forced' to work - at least, not in 'my' state. Of course, I haven't done a comprehensive study on prison conditions. I just saw this article and thought it was interesting.

I don't think anyone actually read the article. Oh well.

I know someone who used to be a counselor in a large state prison. He said there are all kinds of people there that we might not expect: doctors, lawyers, accountants, fighter pilots. I have always felt depressed at the waste of human life in prisons. That's why I thought the article was encouraging. The programs seem to snatch positive results from negative situations, and all on a volunteer basis. Only those who want to, participate.

ONTARIO, Ore. — David Day has a bounce in his step and a glint in his eye unexpected in someone who makes nearly 400 telemarketing calls a day for less than $200 a month. That's because he has a coveted job where few exist: behind bars.

Day, 43, is one of 85 inmates who arrange business meetings from a call center at the Snake River Correctional Institution, a state penitentiary in this onion- and potato-producing town not far from the Idaho line. "I'm grateful for the opportunity. Many of us end up here because we didn't have jobs and lacked communications skills," he says on a recent morning, ponytail cascading down his state-issued denims.

Doesn't sound like abuse to me. Does it to you? :\

[ThunderPoit]

well, since no one else is going to say it: They took 'r jobs!!

(south park reference for those who dont get it ;))

[psmith2.0]

I'm kinda torn on this. I see the benefit of learning skills (both occupational and social, since the lack of them probably played a role in your butt winding up in prison to begin with...and maybe, for some, there's still a chance to turn things around?).

But, damn...some people are just born evil, no-good motherfuckers. Sorry if that rankles a few of you, but you know there's truth to that. Just open your eyes a bit, and look around.

:(

And I don't know how I feel about a life of no hard labor and toil for people who've murdered and raped, and would happy to do so again, given the opportunity.

Case by case, I guess...for every brutal, bad-to-the-core monster that exists, there might be a genuinely decent person who just made some bad, stupid decisions (I'm talking non-violent crimes here).

I do, however, think that people NOT in jail get first crack at jobs and opportunities. That only seems fair. I'd hate to think jobs are going to cons at the expense of others who haven't broken the law and aren't locked up.

:err:

[murbot]

I'd hate to think jobs are going to cons at the expense of others who haven't broken the law and aren't locked up.

:err:

Damn straight.

[Barto]

Yeah, people who get away with their crimes like murbot need to be rewarded for their efforts ;)

In all seriousness it sounds like exploitation to me... Maybe a little bit of work is a good thing for skills but you can see that the temptation would be to turn prisons into factories, rather than rehabilitation centres. Another temptation would be to start charging prisoners because they are making money, turning prisons into forced labour camps.

Also the prison labour market is a oligopsony which allows companies to exploit prisoners - notice the pay for one prisoner was $200 a month. Sure they are prisoners but does that mean corporations should exploit them? Punishment is the role of the state, not business.

- Barto

[Windswept]

But, damn...some people are just born evil, no-good motherfuckers. Sorry if that rankles a few of you, but you know there's truth to that. Just open your eyes a bit, and look around.I completely agree that some people become truly evil. I don't think they're actually 'born' that way though, exactly. I think many were the victims of severe abuse as children. I'm not saying that excuses them in *any* way. But I think childhood abuse is a major cause. I could be wrong about that, but that's pretty much the way it seems to me.

And I don't know how I feel about a life of no hard labor and toil for people who've murdered and raped, and would happy to do so again, given the opportunity.

Case by case, I guess...for every brutal, bad-to-the-core monster that exists, there might be a genuinely decent person who just made some bad, stupid decisions (I'm talking non-violent crimes here). Well, the thing is that these guys are *not* doing hard labor right now. They're sitting in cells all day, watching tv and having three square meals - at our expense. Wouldn't you rather they did something to earn their keep, instead of draining away our tax money?

Plus, most of them will eventually end up back in society. Having them back among us, embittered and unemployable after sitting doing nothing for 15 years doesn't do us any good, does it?

I don't know who is eligible for the jobs. I don't really think it would be murderers and rapists. There are plenty of other people in prison for other stuff, who would probably qualify. There are people there, for example, for getting in a car wreck while under the influence - a car wreck in which someone died. Some of these people end up in prison for a few years.

I do, however, think that people NOT in jail get first crack at jobs and opportunities. That only seems fair. I'd hate to think jobs are going to cons at the expense of others who haven't broken the law and aren't locked up. I would agree with that completely. But these jobs pay so little that no American would apply for them.

From the article:

An official for an Oklahoma-based sales company said if not for its 24-person call center at a state prison, it would have shut down operations or moved jobs to China because of costs. Inmates earn 11 cents to 36 cents an hour, says the Federal Bureau of Prisons. And I don't think they are taking jobs away from any Americans, with wages of 11-36 cents per hour.

There are more inmates — 2.1 million in mid-2003, compared with 1.6 million in 1995 — because of an influx of convictions for non-violent crimes and longer sentences, says the Justice Policy Institute. As prison populations swell, so has the number of potential qualified workers.

"There isn't as much of a stigma to using prison labor," says Rosemary Batt, a professor at the Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations. "We're sending jobs overseas when there are plenty of qualified people in prison. Why not pay people a wage to rehabilitate them?"

Timlin Industries approached the prison when it became too difficult to find workers in tiny Lakeview, Ore. "Boy, do these guys work hard," says Tim Klosse, who owns Timlin. His crew has performed so well, Timlin recently opened a manufacturing facility in Lakeview to handle an influx of orders.

Katey Grabenhorst, 42, is eternally grateful one particular call-center job was available at an Oregon prison. She started working for the DMV while imprisoned and remains an employee out of jail.

The job "brought self-esteem, order, skills and a stable income to my life," says Grabenhorst, who served nearly five years for attempted murder. "If this program wasn't available, I would have probably ended up back in prison."

"People can debate the value of prison labor, but I'm living proof it works," she says.

[BRussell]

I'm a consultant to a prison release institution whose entire premise is to take people out of prison and put them into jobs. They get out of prison early, live in this secure facility under a kind of house arrest, but go out and get jobs. Their paychecks go directly to the institution to whom they pay rent, any restitution, and savings where they can't touch it. They let them out when they have enough in savings to rent a place, usually 9 months or so. The idea is that it teaches them responsibility and makes sure they're not simply let out of prison with no money or job where they might go back to holding up convenience stores.

BTW, a lot of them become roofers. Stay away from roofers. They're the seedy underbelly of society.

Having said that, the idea of having them work for a couple of nickels per hour while they're in prison seems a bit strange. They should instead emphasize education and vocational training, IMO.

Maybe it's just a conspiracy theory, but a lot of people look at the declining state support of education over the past couple of decades, and the increasing money being spent on prisons, and see prison as a racket. Too often the prison construction and management contracts go to political cronies. So a lot of people think there's a political incentive to build lots of prisons, and this cheap labor would provide yet another incentive.

[billybobsky]

Billybobsky, *I* am certainly not aware of such abuse. I know prisons are over-crowded, and are pretty awful places in some states. But I'm not aware of prisoners being 'forced' to work - at least, not in 'my' state. Of course, I haven't done a comprehensive study on prison conditions. I just saw this article and thought it was interesting.

I don't think anyone actually read the article. Oh well.

I know someone who used to be a counselor in a large state prison. He said there are all kinds of people there that we might not expect: doctors, lawyers, accountants, fighter pilots. I have always felt depressed at the waste of human life in prisons. That's why I thought the article was encouraging. The programs seem to snatch positive results from negative situations, and all on a volunteer basis. Only those who want to, participate.



Doesn't sound like abuse to me. Does it to you? :\

The history of these programs is riddled with things that at one point or another seem wholesome but don't end up being so... check out "Worse Than Slavery: Parchman Farm and the Ordeal of Jim Crow Justice" by David Oshinsky ... it gives you a taste for what came before in terms of criminal justice and where we are now... granted the Parchman farm is one of the more insidious examples but most people don't know about it...

[Moogs]

It's one thing to have prisoners building products or installing computers or whatever... but they shouldn't be working call centers of any kind where they can potentially get access to people's personal information. That's FUBAR. Especially if they don't identify themselves up front as being a part of some rehabilitation work program. It's completely dishonest for companies to hire these people and not tell customers in advance who is answering the phones.

PS - Carol your self-restraint in not creating a poll is both masterful and inspiring. I can only hope others will model themselves after you in this regard.

;)

[psmith2.0]

Oh, a roofist, huh? BRussell just showed his hand, and I, for one, am appalled. It's sweeping, blanket statements like that which keep people down (or up, as this case may be).

Wait, let me guess: some of your best friends are roofers, right? You don't mind them being around, but they should know their place (namely, up on the roof)?

:lol:

When a roofer walks in the room, you clutch your shingles a bit closer? You see a group of roofers walking together, you get a little nervous? That's roofism, man...plain and simple. I expected more from you.

When will this intolerance end? We're all the same, deep down.

It's bricklayers you have to watch out for, the dirty, no-good sons of bitches. Everyone knows that...

:p :D

[billybobsky]

"that's awesome"

[psmith2.0]

I completely agree that some people become truly evil. I don't think they're actually 'born' that way though, exactly. I think many were the victims of severe abuse as children. I'm not saying that excuses them in *any* way though. But I think childhood abuse is a major cause. I could be wrong about that, but that's pretty much the way it seems to me.

Wait. Aren't people "born gay"? Isn't that the accepted thinking and I hear that said all the time. What about people born with an innate artistic ability? Or aren't some born with a gift for numbers and math, or analytical thinking? Child prodigies, playing amazing violin or piano pieces at 4 years of age and whatnot (yeah, practice comes in...but some just "have it", we all know that)? If all that is the case - and I think it is - then couldn't someone be born with his wiring crossed too, for the worse? Are all "gifts from birth" strictly good or noble (or even neutral)? If all those other things are true, you have to allow for the fact that some people might be - out of the womb - not quite right...maybe lacking a conscious, little sociopaths, because something genetic or biological just didn't come together right? Yes, abuse and rotten upbringing DEFINITELY factor in and have a role.

But how can you explain cases where someone's had a pretty nice childhood and life, and, at a very young age, are already displaying signs of being a little terror on wheels: in fights, harming animals, always in trouble, vandalizing, etc. I knew a kid like that when I was around 6. His parents were friends of my parents and there were actually better off than us, and his parents were good people, a real sweetheart mom and a nice, funny and down-to-earth dad. And their son scared the shit out of me. He was a spoiled brat, but there was a darker, scarier tinge to it and how he was when it came to other kids, to pets, to the property of others, the things he said and words he used, etc. He might've been possessed...I always allowed for that. :D

He's either in prison...or a lawyer, I'm sure. Or a host on QVC.

;)

Well, the thing is that these guys are *not* doing hard labor right now. They're sitting in cells all day, watching tv and having three square meals - at our expense. Wouldn't you rather they did something to earn their keep, instead of draining away our tax money?

Yeah, and I have a serious problem with that...but I was playing nice and imagining a utopia where they actually DID sweat and toil, for the sake of the thread. Believe me...you kill someone (multiple someones, no less), your life shouldn't center around weight-training, daily Montel viewing, engaging in all new forms of shady, illicit activities and behavior while you're in the joint, etc.

:rolleyes:

I'd rather they swung a fucking hammer from about 6am until 5pm. Or cleared land, fixed up old buildings, painted something that needed painting. Then, maybe, they'd be too exhausted to rape one another, form gangs, deal in contraband, etc. Hell, breaking boulders down into gravel...always a need for that. That's not so old-school, is it?

Plus, most of them will eventually end up back in society. Having them back among us, embittered and umemployable after sitting doing nothing for 15 years doesn't do us any good, does it?

Well, I'm hoping the worst don't, Carol. I mean, I do discriminate between murderers/rapists and someone writing bad checks or involved in a DUI situation. The ones, as I mention in my first post, that seem to have a chance or some hope (and who aren't in for life), yeah, help 'em out so when they get out maybe they'll have something to do and won't be a problematic asshole (and will do their best to keep their butt on the straight and narrow and OUT of jail again).

But these jobs pay so little that no American would apply for them. And I don't think they are taking jobs away from any Americans, with wages of 11-36 cents per hour.

You don't know my cousin... :lol: