[FFL]

Originally Posted by billybobsky Now of course, the fix to some of this problem is increased regulation on corporate lobbying -- but the corporate lobbyist funding the current form of the Tea Party will certainly not like that.

Yes.

We've got a self-perpetuating system where we put one party in power, and then get fed up and put the other party in power. And both parties use the same corporate money to stay in power, and the illusion that they are very different to keep us divided and distracted from the fact that they really are not.

We need major campaign finance reform, and major lobbying reform. And it's never going to happen as long as we keep electing the same corporate-funded politicians.

Originally Posted by Majost I really think that the best statement the "occupiers" can make is: We demand the separation of corporation and state.

Yes.

This is a very good distillation of the root problem into one simple statement. It is the one "demand" that literally everyone in the 99% can agree on, and is at the root of most other demands being tossed around.

We need major campaign finance reform, and major lobbying reform. And it's never going to happen as long as we keep electing the same corporate-funded politicians.

Originally Posted by Moogs Regarding Banana and ezk's back-and-forth, unless you love splitting hairs, it's almost impossible to look at the federal political process today and the policy process and not conclude that for the most part, government IS business. I will hold back all the obvious points that bare this out so I can respond to Drew's initial points but it's nuts to try and untangle the two parties. They are effectively one group wearing different hats.

Exactly.

Lots more of this post to quote - good one Moogs!

2) Your ATL protest videos... I don't know. I don't see anything particularly ... uh... what's the word... emulation-worthy (?) of that group. Is this Heaven's Gate or a well-informed political protest? I cringed for the Congressman. I was thinking "God damn, here's this elected rep who is trying to do the right thing and he's supporting these people and they've gone all hippie-group-speak on him." I doubt if he'll show up again but more importantly I doubt if anyone of gravitas (besides actors and musicians maybe) are going to show up and support these people (in any big city). Here Mayor Emanuel talks as if it's only happening in NY. Not encouraging. You don't want to be seen supporting a group that can't engage you in a normal conversation or which (unfairly or not) gives the impression of being "out there". I guess it is proof of the 99%, which you would expect to have all kinds milling around doing their thing, including odd-balls. Right or wrong, sad or not, image matters in this game. It matters a lot.

Good points here. Addabox did a good job explaining why the oddballs are inevitable, but they still present a challenge to the effectiveness of the protests.

But - the biggest problem with a spokesperson with "gravitas", is - someone with gravitas is, by definition, part of the 1% and not the 99%.

3) I think your link to the graphs on the business site is EXCELLENT. I also suspect 70% of the protestors out there, can't speak to anything specifically in that article if someone sticks a camera in their face. Not beyond "I don't have a job and the CEOs are abusing their power." That also is a major problem. The article talks about "protestor anger". Does anyone see anger in that creepily chanting crowd?? Look at the typical Arab Spring protest in Egypt and look at the bigger movements here. The differences (gunfire aside) are striking. The energy level the passion, and the quality of message are completely different IMHO. When I am on the wrong side of a community dispute or problem, and I see hundreds or thousands of people in a small space doing this... ...I start to pay attention. This is not the 60s. THis is not we shall overcome violence with peace. If they treat it like it is, there is no hope of change IMO. Change won't come until the people on the other side are afraid. Fear motivates the ill-motivated to change their ways many times. Reason isn't going to motivate them, calm isn't going to motivate them, catchy slogans aren't going to motivate them.

I see your point - but this is an apples-oranges comparison. The Arab Spring protestors were getting beaten, arrested/tortured, and even shot - just for protesting.

And I don't think getting more chaotic will be productive at all. It will only make it easier for their critics to marginalize them.

The OWS movement needs a good-looking, very well-spoken, inspiring, spokesperson who has such a burning desire to changetheworld that it infects those around him/her. A 20-or-30-something who is undeniably a member of the 99%.

In short - it needs the socio-political version of a Young Steve Jobs.

THAT SAID I have to say... I am genuinely so proud of these people. Even the dorky college kids walking around as zombies, who wouldn't know a good policy idea if one dropped in their lap. I am often a cynical, pessimistic-when-it-comes-to-America kind of guy (I can be honest about myself...) but when I see stuff like what I've seen the last two weeks it gives me hope. Hope there is less apathy of the issues than I suspected (even if there is a striking amount of ignorance - if people's explanations are any gauge). It also gives me hope that some of our ideals of freedom and speech and protest are alive (if not well, at least still hanging in there). But the Big Message™ needs to happen. There needs to be some centralization of leadership, some meeting of the minds on overriding demands and message points, and on the specific targets of their actions. WHO do they want to step up and do WHAT before they put down their signs and go home? I don't think the vast majority of people out there can answer that question.

I agree that a unified message and goals would do wonders for the effectiveness. But the most important message to the protestors and those who support them should be what to do after they put down their signs and go home.

1. If you're not registered to vote, then REGISTER. Democrat, Republican, or Independent - if you're not registered, do so IMMEDIATELY.
2. Stay in touch with other OWS protestors in your area.
3. Identify incumbents and candidates running for local, state, and national office, and make sure they know that YOUR vote will depend on THEIR position on "the separation of corporation and state".
4. Encourage your fellow OWS protestors do the same.
5. Make sure everyone you know in the 99% is encouraged to do the same.
6. Last, but not least - VOTE at election time. Be sure to encourage everyone you know to do the same.

I even tried to start a blog with a couple people I know who care about the movement but they chickened out on that. Not corporate types either; artists. Go figure. I figure maybe a few like minded people can get together and put together some real talking points and tweet it up and get it out there. Help get people on the same page and talking intelligently on the issues.

Excellent! Don't be discouraged by your friends' apathy - put them on the spot!
"Well - if you're too... uncommitted to pitch in, can you put me in touch with someone in the movement who isn't a chicken-shit?"