[psmith2.0]

Oh, don't I know it!

[PB PM]

Anyone else look at the Silverado EV Chevy announced today? Fall 2022 launch, and it looks like Chevy did everything we were complaining about inside. It has an 11" driver info screen, and a stupidly large 17" infotainment screen. Biggest battery gives approximately 400 mile range. Looks like they've added some feature from the retired Avalanche that allows you to extend the bed into the back seats. Over 500HP and over 700 torque for the non-work truck version. 4.3s 0-60 IIRC.

[turtle]

I'm not interested that one but will say I'm really glad to see EVs becoming mainstream.

[PB PM]

Indeed. I believe Chevy has said all their vehicles will be EVs by 2028. Of course they have big problems reaching their goal, given what’s happened. Having the Bolt pulled from sale, and all units recalled (with stop use orders) with no estimates for repair for battery fire issues, I’m sure most buyers would be hesitant to go with them again.

If I knew I would have somewhere to charge it for sure, I’d go EV without hesitating in 3-5 years. Decided to go hybrid again though, because I cannot say for sure I’ll be able to do it at home and sitting in a parking lot all night to charge doesn’t do much for me.

[turtle]

That is the kicker for most people. The "simple" issue of charging. This isn't a 20A plug in the wall. It is more like powering a large RV or work shed.

I'm trying to figure out now where/how I'm going to have charger on my property for when my time to go EV comes. I'm not likely to buy an EV for +5 years or more either. I am getting solar installed though so it really fits in my big picture to have an EV.

I looked into Plugin Hybrids but those only get about 40 miles on a charge. That isn't worth the cost if I'm looking to plug in. Sure I could easily do longer trips, but that isn't really the goal.

[Matsu]

I wonder if batteries are perhaps being moved too aggressively into the mainstream... They need clean power behind them, which is not always (often not) the source, and even then they introduce their own set of problems, in particular the industrial processes behind recycling the batteries, or building them in the first place... I'd like to see a really good end-to-end, cradle-to-grave, whole gamut, analysis of Internal Combustion vs Battery Powered Electric Vehicles that includes properly corrected weighting for every raw material and process that goes into the car, powering/fueling/maintaining it, and disposing/recycling of it.

I'm not really sure, but I don't know the science or the engineering behind even a fraction of the relevant technologies... I suspect that right now decisions are being weighted by the potential electrification represents relative to what potential remains in further ICE development??? Which is not to say that there aren't present advantages already, but I can image that there's plenty of room for environmental damage in sourcing, processing, and recycling rare earth elements, and disposing of spent materials at large scale (ie, every ICE in the world replaced by a battery powered EV perhaps introduces a new set of problems?)

I don't know. Is the problem entirely the underlying technologies, or the appetites around them?

[kscherer]

Nice looking truck, but too much touch-whizzy-bang on the dash. Just more stuff to break early.

At least they were kind enough to have normal knobs for climate control.

I understand the appeal for the "glass cockpit", but I think auto makers are trying too hard to fix something that isn't broken, isn't distracting, and create glitz where none is needed and/or wanted.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Matsu I wonder if batteries are perhaps being moved too aggressively into the mainstream... They need clean power behind them, which is not always (often not) the source, and even then they introduce their own set of problems, in particular the industrial processes behind recycling the batteries, or building them in the first place... I'd like to see a really good end-to-end, cradle-to-grave, whole gamut, analysis of Internal Combustion vs Battery Powered Electric Vehicles that includes properly corrected weighting for every raw material and process that goes into the car, powering/fueling/maintaining it, and disposing/recycling of it. I'm not really sure, but I don't know the science or the engineering behind even a fraction of the relevant technologies... I suspect that right now decisions are being weighted by the potential electrification represents relative to what potential remains in further ICE development??? Which is not to say that there aren't present advantages already, but I can image that there's plenty of room for environmental damage in sourcing, processing, and recycling rare earth elements, and disposing of spent materials at large scale (ie, every ICE in the world replaced by a battery powered EV perhaps introduces a new set of problems?) I don't know. Is the problem entirely the underlying technologies, or the appetites around them?

The real push for EVs from government is to get people out of cars and onto transit. They know full well EVs will be out of reach price wise for most people.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by PB PM The real push for EVs from government is to get people out of cars and onto transit. They know full well EVs will be out of reach price wise for most people.

Well, that may be the case in some cities, but where I live there is no public transportation. 800,000 people and no subways, no commuter trains, no reliable bus system*. And the number of Teslas on the road is growing by leaps and bounds.

* I say this even though we have buses. But, the bus system here is useless and the only people that use it are the homeless, DUI folks, and the desperate. If you miss your bus here, you're doomed! It's worthless beyond hope.

[PB PM]

Not disagreeing, the push is fine for city slickers. For suburban and rural areas it’s not so great, given that transit revolves around getting people to the city, making it useless if you work out of downtown cores. Reality is that government only cares about rich people, they are the ones that line their pocketbooks.

[kscherer]

Not gonna disagree with anything you just said, especially that last part.

I would love to have an electric car, but I need two things, first:

1) 500 miles range, rain or shine, for less than $40,000.

2) Solar panels on my house capable of delivering power to my home and my car.

Until then, I'm just not a good candidate. We take trips that run 1200+ miles—and into areas where charging is challenging—and I need a car capable of doing that without scrambling for charging stations. And if I'm going in on that front, I want to generate my own power just in case, you know, the power goes out. Power is cheap in Idaho, but the in-home infrastructure and additional cost for the car are still way more than the cost of a comparable gas-powered sedan. And don't even get me started on the annoyance of electric pickups, which is just—I can't use the word.

We're going to reach a point where we're just as dependent on power companies as we are on oil, and there isn't enough clean power generated on planet Earth to satisfy the entire U.S. car market, let alone all the other countries. This is a losing game until we have solar on every home where it makes sense.

[Matsu]

I'm not quite so cynical about what government cares about, but most government programs run into means testing problems when designing social programs. Often, by the numbers, the middle class is not quite poor enough to benefit - by typical means tests our extended family is basically too wealthy to qualify for any number of children's programs, drug coverages, home assistance to seniors, etc... Everyone I know pays out of pocket for these things or is covered by workplace health and benefit policies. None of us feels "rich" - we all spend carefully, have or have had mortgage debt, have to save for retirement, etc...
but it sometimes feels like that's the message government is sending us: "You have enough, don't look at us." Don't get me wrong, I'm glad programs exist to help people with fewer options, but I understand how people can become resentful... We have to be careful about that as citizens, and governments have to be careful about that too because it leads to a polarization which is not good... Good program/policy design is worth the money we pay for good civil servants to figure out the right balance of means and access...

Incentive programs sometimes run the risk of going the other way, with middle class not feeling quite rich enough to benefit: we can't quite afford a tax subsidized luxury EV, and by the time more affordable models percolate down, any subsidy program would become too expensive to run. Them's the breaks sometimes. Most of our family did quite well over the last two decades on subsidized home energy retrofits (furnaces, windows, insulation, etc...) Other people were too poor to benefit from - they couldn't afford $10,000 in home energy retrofits, so they simply made do with what they had.

Energy is a weird one, it's styled equal parts social program and incentive program. In any case, I wasn't thinking of government so much as industry in my comments. Is EV really ready to begin supplanting ICE en masse, or will there be hidden costs down the line?

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Matsu I'm not quite so cynical about what government cares about, but most government programs run into means testing problems when designing social programs. Often, by the numbers, the middle class is not quite poor enough to benefit - by typical means tests our extended family is basically too wealthy to qualify for any number of children's programs, drug coverages, home assistance to seniors, etc... Everyone I know pays out of pocket for these things or is covered by workplace health and benefit policies. None of us feels "rich" - we all spend carefully, have or have had mortgage debt, have to save for retirement, etc... but it sometimes feels like that's the message government is sending us: "You have enough, don't look at us." Don't get me wrong, I'm glad programs exist to help people with fewer options, but I understand how people can become resentful... We have to be careful about that as citizens, and governments have to be careful about that too because it leads to a polarization which is not good... Good program/policy design is worth the money we pay for good civil servants to figure out the right balance of means and access... Incentive programs sometimes run the risk of going the other way, with middle class not feeling quite rich enough to benefit: we can't quite afford a tax subsidized luxury EV, and by the time more affordable models percolate down, any subsidy program would become too expensive to run. Them's the breaks sometimes. Most of our family did quite well over the last two decades on subsidized home energy retrofits (furnaces, windows, insulation, etc...) Other people were too poor to benefit from - they couldn't afford $10,000 in home energy retrofits, so they simply made do with what they had. Energy is a weird one, it's styled equal parts social program and incentive program. In any case, I wasn't thinking of government so much as industry in my comments. Is EV really ready to begin supplanting ICE en masse, or will there be hidden costs down the line?

All the EV credits have helped wealthy people until recently, when the cut off was set at $50k Cdn total vehicle price. Thing is, most of the electric vehicles on the market are over $50k Cdn. The ones under it aren't even worth looking at IMO due to the compromise of range and extremely slow charging, and as a result how long the battery would last. I'm sure it will improve with time, but I doubt we'll see an EV under $35k Cdn, ever, just because of the cost of all the electronics and batteries. That isn't too crazy, given that the average selling price of a new vehicle in Canada was $40-45k in 2019.

I don't hate government, I just realize who they are out to serve 9 times out of 10, they know where the donations to the party comes from.

Energy here in BC isn't currently a big issue, thanks to most of our power coming from hydro dams, so it's already mostly clean. The real benefits of EV's won't come till we have 100% clean energy generation, either from a combo of wind/solar/hydrogen/fusion. Until then the main benefit of EV's is lowering pollution in populated areas.

[PB PM]

Apparently people loved the new Silverado EV, reservations ran out in 12 minutes.

[Matsu]

That's likely the reason for the manufacturers' push to EV right there: consumer demand. People like the idea, so companies will build it for them, kinda the same reason they build massive luxury trucks, this just combines the best/worst of both worlds, LOL, no wonder it sold out.

I just read that BC gasoline is currently selling at $1.75/L, I guess we won't be too far behind. :-(

There's another layer to the social engineering. A lot of us couldn't afford the carrot (tax subsidized luxury EV) and we can't escape the stick (high gas prices)*

*Though you could make the case that the per unit price of gas is historically cheap when compared decade over decade, few of us were buying it in 1935, and those who were, weren't using nearly as much.

[psmith2.0]

BMW unveils world’s first color-changing car.

Uses e-ink tech. The four people who asked for this should be delighted.

Controlled via phone app, of course.

[PB PM]

I get the appeal of the EV, it’s the same reason I like my hybrids, quiet, smooth operation, no old school shifting nonsense, press the peddle and go with no hesitation, no engine shaking while stopped at a traffic light, and best of all far less maintenance. No oil changes, no gas, no alternator, no mechanical starter, brakes last way longer due to regenerative braking, no belts, chains and so on. The cost of dealing with those things alone makes EV ownership less expensive long term. I’m sure it’s a none issue for people who lease a vehicle for 1-3 years, but that’s just an endless money pit. And last of all, for every person who loves the rumble of a ICE exhaust note, there are ten who hate it! A lot of people are also into all the screens and nonsense in these vehicles as well. I’m just glad the vehicle I order only has an 8” screen, not one of those monsters.

If there was a $35k Canadian EV small pickup truck that could go 500km on a charge, I’d be game as long as the charging situation wasn’t an issue.

Originally Posted by Matsu I just read that BC gasoline is currently selling at $1.75/L, I guess we won't be too far behind. :-(

Humm, was just a $1.68 yesterday. Good thing I have over half a tank. was a $1.55 last time I filled up in December. *Just checked gas buddy, a few places hit a $1.71 yesterday. For Americans that over $5 a gallon.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by psmith2.0 BMW unveils world’s first color-changing car. Uses e-ink tech. The four people who asked for this should be delighted. Controlled via phone app, of course.

Guess you’d really want to get paint protection for that sucker. I can only imagine how much it would cost to get the paint fixed when someone inevitably bumps it in a parking lot. What dumb sh$t will auto makers come up with next?

[turtle]

I think the body on the BMW is really cool, but horribly impractical. I've seen the hood of my 2005 van and let me tell you, the BMW would be horrible when half the hood is stuck one color and it is either pay a ton for a new hood or take it to a body shop to have it painted over.

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by PB PM Guess you’d really want to get paint protection for that sucker. I can only imagine how much it would cost to get the paint fixed when someone inevitably bumps it in a parking lot. What dumb sh$t will auto makers come up with next?

Originally Posted by turtle I think the body on the BMW is really cool, but horribly impractical. I've seen the hood of my 2005 van and let me tell you, the BMW would be horrible when half the hood is stuck one color and it is either pay a ton for a new hood or take it to a body shop to have it painted over.

That's the thing. People are such inconsiderate oblivitards anymore, refusing to return their grocery carts to the corral/stall and just leave them in lots, where they drift and hit other vehicles. That, alone, is why I'd never waste money on something like this. It wound be dinged/damaged, via some graceless, lazy dipshit, within a week.

The slightest fender bender, curb scuff, errant shopping cart, falling tree limb, dog bite, etc. Anything that might normally scuff up a regular car exterior, but now you gotta deal with that high-tech stuff getting replaced? But I suppose if you can own a BMW of this type in the first place, what's a little more money for repair/upkeep?

I don't travel in those circles, so I have to think about stuff like this.

"I can't get a color-changing car...it would be too much hassle to maintain, and I'll wind up choking people at grocery store parking lots, even more than I already want to!"

[PB PM]

Yup, and people wonder why insurance prices are going through the roof, it dumb stuff like that paint.

[psmith2.0]

Yeah, if Allstate or GEICO knew you had one of these cars, you'd see your premium go up a hefty chunk, I bet.

"You new car does what? Really? Hmmm. Okay, no problem..." KA-CHING!

[Matsu]

Speaking of insurance. I have something of an indirect professional interest in this topic, moreso in how it relates to certain measurements of public safety, but I find the cost breakdowns and administration fascinating too. BC has a public system. Ontario has a private system. Together they're the most expensive to ratepayers in Canada (Ontario wort, BC second worst). What do people say about their premiums in BC? Any weird outliers, like business policies, taxis, commercial fleets, etc... Some of these guys are just getting steamrolled in Ontario, and not that the average citizen is doing all that well either...

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Matsu Speaking of insurance. I have something of an indirect professional interest in this topic, more so in how it relates to certain measurements of public safety, but I find the cost breakdowns and administration fascinating too. BC has a public system. Ontario has a private system. Together they're the most expensive to ratepayers in Canada (Ontario wort, BC second worst). What do people say about their premiums in BC? Any weird outliers, like business policies, taxis, commercial fleets, etc... Some of these guys are just getting steamrolled in Ontario, and not that the average citizen is doing all that well either...

Rate payers here have mixed feelings. It is high when you add in the optional coverage, which is almost a must have anyway. Basic isn't too bad, I play less than $1000 a year for that due to having a spotless record. My optional half is private, and is $300-400 a year. There is a vocal minority that strongly want private vehicle insurance, saying it will be so much cheaper. I have my doubts about seeing cheaper rates, because there are is a high amount of drivers in Greater Vancouver that are rolling in $70k+ vehicles, even fender benders cost $20k+ for many on the road as a result. There are some benefits to the public system, in that ICBC cannot refuse to insure anyone with a valid license (for better or for worse), and rates for young people aren't as high as some places. We recently switched to a no fault system. For those who love to lawyer up it got worse. Depending on what kind of accident you have, it could be worse, or it could be better. For rate payers, it's better than when it was an at fault system, my rate dropped by $200-$300 a year. I don't know anything about rates outside of personal/single vehicle business use, so I cannot comment on taxis and such. We did put a system in place were by Uber and Lyft drivers have to have a commercial license, just like Taxi drivers.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by psmith2.0 BMW unveils world’s first color-changing car. Uses e-ink tech. The four people who asked for this should be delighted. Controlled via phone app, of course.

Makes sense. Colour e-ink books and textbooks have the potential to save trees, help independent authors/novelists, lighten loads on schoolchildren, reduce university education costs and revolutionize learning across all disciplines and income levels, in countries around the world.

So by all means, let's eschew all that and focus on using it to paint our cars.

[psmith2.0]

But...but...with some further development/functionality, I can put a Batman symbol on my hood!

[PB PM]

Tech like that is always put in high end products first, it's just the way the world works.

[Matsu]

I'd be nice if we could get electrically dimmed windows, but vehicle safety regs probably get in the way.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Matsu I'd be nice if we could get electrically dimmed windows, but vehicle safety regs probably get in the way.

I would love car windows that automatically dim when the sun is low. That would be amazing.

[Matsu]

It would be really handy for anyone, especially eyeglass wearers. I have transitions, but they don’t work indoors or inside the car - window glass blocks UV. I keep a pair of non transitions in the car, with integrated magnetic polarized clips. They’re nice and low profile, but sometimes I’m juggling two lens cases and the clips stuffed in the headliner. Or I forget and I’m wearing the transitions which don’t clip. Etc etc. Annoying. It’d be awesome to have the car just sense low angle bright light and dim the glass appropriately.