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chucker
 
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2020-12-22, 13:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
Parallels in beta only runs ARM versions of the OS. So far no x86 emulation support for M1 Macs.
Yes, but Windows on ARM includes an emulator.
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kscherer
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2020-12-22, 14:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Yes, but Windows on ARM includes an emulator.
An emulator (Parallels) running an emulator (Windows for ARM) might raise a few performance questions.
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chucker
 
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2020-12-22, 14:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
An emulator (Parallels) running an emulator (Windows for ARM) might raise a few performance questions.
Right. However, M1 is so much faster than most Intel Macs that running a many-years-old version of CS might be OK.
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kscherer
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2020-12-22, 15:58

Will be fun to see.

I seem to have read somewhere that a guy got Windows for ARM working on an M1 Mac. I didn't read much or look into performance, but it was working. So it may not be very far off. However, I think the market is going to need Microsoft's cooperation.

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chucker
 
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2020-12-22, 16:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Will be fun to see.

I seem to have read somewhere that a guy got Windows for ARM working on an M1 Mac.
Yes.

Here, using QEMU: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...1-mac.2272013/

(Note that QEMU is mostly used to emulate the portions that Apple's Hypervisor.framework doesn't include, such as networking. The actual CPU virtualization is done by Apple.)

This setup reaches 1288/5449 scores inside Windows, using an ARM build of Geekbench. That single-threaded score is faster than any Intel Mac, but it does represent an overhead of about 32%.

And here, using Parallels: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...#post-29408765

Again, the bulk of the virtualization is already done included in macOS, not provided by Parallels.

With Parallels, the Geekbench/ARM/virtualized Windows score is 1523/2825. I'm guessing faffoo had their VM configured to just two cores; I didn't think to ask. So the multi-core score is a little misleading. That single-core score, though!* That's just a 11.6% overhead now.

And these are both with no optimizations yet. The first is basically someone's QEMU hackjob; the second is a professional approach by Parallels, but their very first beta nonetheless, and I believe they have made no mention of Windows-specific ARM optimizations yet.

Now, to be clear, all of this does leave open the question: how about x86 apps running inside the emulator inside that VM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I didn't read much or look into performance, but it was working. So it may not be very far off. However, I think the market is going to need Microsoft's cooperation.
We shall see. Microsoft has already helped (unwittingly, it would seem) by adding 64-bit x86 emulation in beta just a few weeks ago.

I don't think either Apple or Microsoft are bothered by the idea, but Apple (and perhaps also Microsoft) just don't seem particularly invested in making it as smooth as possible. Yet?

*) There isn't currently any laptop CPU, from either AMD or Intel, that will reach this score natively. The closest is Intel's Tiger Lake i7-1165G7, at 1408.
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kscherer
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2020-12-22, 17:12

2 things:

1) Those performance scores are bananas. The M1 is a little beast!

2) The reference to Microsoft I made is that I think we will need their cooperation as far as licensing Windows for ARM. As I understand it, they do not currently do that, so it may be hard to find [legal] copies to install in the first place.

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chucker
 
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2020-12-22, 18:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
2 things:

1) Those performance scores are bananas. The M1 is a little beast!
So cool to see competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
2) The reference to Microsoft I made is that I think we will need their cooperation as far as licensing Windows for ARM. As I understand it, they do not currently do that, so it may be hard to find [legal] copies to install in the first place.
Yes, that's correct, as far as the general public goes — Windows on ARM is OEM-only. You get it bundled with a device like the Surface Pro X, or not at all.

(But, I imagine a lot of people interested in running Windows 10 on M1 are so for development purposes, e.g. to test their code in different environments. And many of those will have an MSDN subscription through their employer, in which case they can in fact just download it from my.visualstudio.com.

Now, if your use case is "I want to run an old app / my company has this one weird business app", yeah, there's currently no valid license for that.)
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Yontsey
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2021-01-08, 19:46

I just got my Mac Mini M1 w/ 16GB RAM and 256 SSD yesterday. Unfortunately I have to wait for Quickbooks Mac 2019 to update to be compatible with Big Sur. Quickbooks is the worst in terms of dragging their feet each year with updates for compatibility.
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kscherer
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2021-01-09, 04:20

But, if you migrate it, does it run functionally? I'm curious as regards Rosetta 2.
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Yontsey
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2021-01-09, 07:22

Haven't tried. Can't risk it since it runs my company. A lot of people complaining on the QB community about not being compatible but for whatever reason we had one person accidentally upgrade to Big Sur and it's running, but they are not hosting the server file, which is on my computer. I'll just wait until they officially say.

They just had an update a couple days ago but it didn't mention it. Weirdly enough, the one on Big Sur had an update where it did mention Big Sur compatibility but QB still does not list 2019 as compatible and the update numbers are not the same between the two. I'd rather be way safer then sorry in this situation.

Die young and save yourself....
@yontsey
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pscates2.0
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2021-01-09, 09:36

This is one of those situations where I could see Apple providing a first-party, really nice (and easy-to-use) financial/accounting app. One that did everything Quickbooks and Quicken does, and, like all their other home-grown titles, is always updated to run in the latest OS and whatever architecture (M1 for now, and whatever the future holds).

Off-topic (click to toggle):
It’s really the one obvious area they’ve not delved into. They’ve got music, video and photography solutions. And an Office-type of suite for documents, presentation and spreadsheets. Along with all the other things baked into their two OSes (email, browsing, contacts, messaging, maps, eBooks, calendar, health and fitness, media stores, video conferencing, etc.).

With their focus on security/privacy and all their existing relationships with banks (from Apple Pay), along with all the integration they build into their stuff (how this hypothetical financial/accounting app could work seamlessly with Numbers to import/export data, generate reports, graphs, etc. And have it all synced via iCloud, so when you make an Apple Pay purchase on your phone, it automatically gets logged and is reflected on your other devices. And you can always manually enter other activity if needed, with it syncing/updating to all your other devices within seconds.

It could’ve as simple (home banking/register keeping and tax-info duties), to small business accounting and payroll type of work, etc.

I’ve thought about all this for years, Apple doing a killer financial/bookkeeping/accounting app, tapping in to all they’ve currently got in place (security, iCloud syncing, banking/credit card integration, working seamlessly with other relevant apps already in their stable, etc.) and doing something really slick and easy-to-use for the Mac/iOS using world.

Because, currently, there isn’t. Folks (Yontsey and many more like him) are “held hostage” by Intuit or others who aren’t always on the ball in updating their stuff to work with what they no doubt see as a “sliver-base” of users.

Apple, naturally, wouldn’t be doing that, as each release would be developed alongside the next major OS releases.

When you start thinking about what all such an app could do, running on both Macs and iOS devices, you come up with a million ideas/scenarios of how nice it could be.

I wonder if they’ve ever talked about/dabbled in that area? All the “long view” pieces to do such a thing seem to be in place (vs. 10 or so years ago), do it makes me wonder.

This just strikes me, and has for a good 2-3 years now, as one of those areas where Apple could really do something amazing and appreciated on the software front.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2021-01-09 at 09:46.
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Frank777
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2021-01-09, 09:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
This is one of those situations where I could see Apple providing a first-party, really nice (and easy-to-use) financial/accounting app. One that did everything Quickbooks and Quicken does, and, like all their other home-grown titles, is always updated to run in the latest OS and whatever architecture (M1 for now, and whatever the future holds).
The last OS update to my MacBook Air left all my Safari webloc desktop icons blank.
I think I'd want them to focus on quality MacOS releases before diving into new software areas.

With accounting, besides QB you do have the more-pricey Xero and the no-pricey Wave Accounting.
And a number of packages in-between.

I don't see a lot of value for Apple to enter this space.
Maybe offer a special free trial to one of them to light a fire under the perennially-late QuickBooks.
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PB PM
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2021-01-09, 10:55

Considering that Apples first party software has, generally, been getting worse year over year for the last 6-10 years, wishing for more first party apps, isn’t exactly something I’d want to see. They need to focus on what they have now, and make it actually usable.
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pscates2.0
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2021-01-09, 10:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
The last OS update to my MacBook Air left all my Safari webloc desktop icons blank.
I think I'd want them to focus on quality MacOS releases before diving into new software areas.
I would too, but I assume there would be separate, dedicated teams working on different things. Both things are doable, I would hope? I'm certainly not a fan of some of their decisions and QC issues in recent years, but I wouldn't want other projects/initiatives to be called to a halt over it. Apple should be able to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, juggle multiple projects and allocate resources/manpower as needed. Goodness knows they've got the space to do it in now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
With accounting, besides QB you do have the more-pricey Xero and the no-pricey Wave Accounting.
And a number of packages in-between.
No doubt. Are they all on-the-ball in terms of being ready every year with the scheduled, predictable Apple OS updates (both Mac and iOS)? I don't know, I'm asking (I don't use any of these titles). Because if not, then that's not really an improvement or fix to the current status. And if they don't have the tight integration, iCloud syncing between devices and all the other things I can imagine Apple doing well, that's still a less-than thing. But, again, I don't use any of those, at any price, so I don't know. Their respective websites are a slog-and-a-half to get through (Xero, especially).

Are these apps (and, if so, both Mac and iOS)? Or are they web-based? If so, are they tight/secure? Any breaches or hacks/trouble so far? Seems a week/month doesn't go by that we hear about some big data leak/breach, and often by big companies I've actually heard of, which makes me a little more nervous about some of these smaller, newer outfits.

I know Intuit and all their stuff is the big monkey in the room, and have years of reputation/trust to go on. But Apple does as well. Maybe even more so, since they've got their fingers into so many pies already on the financial/transaction/cloud front and things seem to be running smoothly and safe for everyone.

But, for the things I'm specifically thinking about, I know an in-house Apple solution (for free, or even $49-99 if needed) would surely do a more thorough job, just with all the things they've got laid in place and already up and working?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
I don't see a lot of value for Apple to enter this space.
I probably don't either. But I know I would've said the same thing, 20 years ago, about digital video, music, etc. For people who are fully Apple-based (Mac, iPhone, iPad, etc.), it seems like something they could craft and control and make a very slick solution for. Relieve Intuit of their Apple-related worries/hassles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
Maybe offer a special free trial to one of them to light a fire under the perennially-late QuickBooks.
If my idea is unworkable, and these other options are a little more on-the-ball with their updates and Apple-friendly implementations/rollouts, then yes. I just can't imagine the Apple/Mac side of the Intuit base being big or "important" enough for them to stress over, otherwise the situation would be a little better, and Yontsey wouldn't be in the pickle he's in. Maybe for the same reason(s) Apple decided to do their own work/productivity stuff, so Mac/iOS users wouldn't be forever bound to Microsoft Office for those kinds of tasks, they'd do something better for their base than Intuit is ever going to? Everyone agrees that they're never in a hurry to deliver on their end, it seems.

It probably won't happen, no. But it's the one software thing I've kinda gone back to, again and again, in recent years. Wondering "wouldn't it be kinda nice if...", knowing how friends and relatives of mine using some of these other things (Quicken, primarily) always seem to be grousing, or in wait-and-see mode, on an ongoing, annual basis.

I'd be more impressed with this sort of thing from Apple, as opposed to further developments on the superior selfie-taking front. That there's a crew of folks inside that spaceship working on this makes me want to slap my head with a brick or three.

Quote:
When we give our customers the tools to be the full narcissist they're striving to be, we know we are making a true impact in the world. - Tim Cook


Don't lie...everyone here can imagine him saying that in that Snagglepuss, sing-songy voice of his.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2021-01-09 at 11:20.
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Frank777
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2021-01-13, 13:00

Don't think I've seen any mention here about Intel's response to the M1.

I'm actually rooting for them to regain their footing in chip design and production. Silicon is now indispensable to modern life and given current world tensions, I'm not sure it's wise for North America to have all our eggs in a Taiwanese basket.
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kscherer
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2021-01-13, 13:07

Yes, but Intel still has an energy problem that X86 cannot solve. They may well get some speed back and increase efficiency, but then the next-gen M-series will drop and reset the board.

Intel is trying to catch up in a race its architecture cannot win.

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Quagmire
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2021-01-13, 13:25

Has Intel's issues been an architecture issue or a production issue? I thought their issues mostly has been a production issue where they have not been able to get off the 14nm process. Would Intel be running issues even if lets say they could also been on a 5nm process right now?

giggity
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kscherer
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2021-01-13, 13:32

Yes, production is an issue, but as far as that whole "performance per watt" thing that Apple is after, X86 cannot catch up with it, because their architecture doesn't work that way. There are some pretty interesting articles linked back up the way that explain it in terms that cause my brain to smoke.

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chucker
 
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2021-01-13, 13:54

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
Has Intel's issues been an architecture issue or a production issue? I thought their issues mostly has been a production issue where they have not been able to get off the 14nm process. Would Intel be running issues even if lets say they could also been on a 5nm process right now?
It’s a mix of both: their 10nm approach was overly ambitious and, upon failure, lost them multiple years. Then, on top of that, their model in the 2010s (“tick-tock”) was to alternate between a process shrink and a microarchitecture upgrade. So, because they failed to ship the 10nm shrink in volume, they were also stuck on the 2015 Skylake architecture for years. Both are resolved now, more or less, but it’ll take time to recover.

Last edited by chucker : 2021-01-13 at 14:49.
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PB PM
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2021-01-13, 19:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
Don't think I've seen any mention here about Intel's response to the M1.

I'm actually rooting for them to regain their footing in chip design and production. Silicon is now indispensable to modern life and given current world tensions, I'm not sure it's wise for North America to have all our eggs in a Taiwanese basket.
Intel first announced they would be work on this design last summer, even before M1 was announced, so I don't know if I'd call it a response to M1. It was more of Intel's response to AMD's chiplet design they introduced in 2019.
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Yontsey
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2021-01-16, 20:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yontsey View Post
I just got my Mac Mini M1 w/ 16GB RAM and 256 SSD yesterday. Unfortunately I have to wait for Quickbooks Mac 2019 to update to be compatible with Big Sur. Quickbooks is the worst in terms of dragging their feet each year with updates for compatibility.
So I believe Quickbooks finally updated their software so I can hook this bad boy up this week when I get time.
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chucker
 
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2021-01-17, 06:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Intel first announced they would be work on this design last summer, even before M1 was announced, so I don't know if I'd call it a response to M1.
Yup. There's also Lakefield, which is sort of their first test run of a heterogenous cores: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ures#Lakefield

And it's not like Apple came up with the concept; ARM had it several years earlier as "big.LITTLE"*. To Intel's credit, they had many approaches to dealing with very variable workloads (where sometimes, you need high performance, but much of the time, you really want to save on energy consumption instead) before, such as SpeedStep. Just not this particular one, yet.

*) I'm a bit surprised there isn't a patent thing going on, unless either ARM didn't come up with it either, or both Apple and Intel licensed it from ARM.
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PB PM
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2021-01-17, 15:01

Intel does use some ARM based technology, so it could very well be licensed. Even if it isn't, given that it is being used on a totally different architecture, I doubt that there would be much grounds to go after them with.
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