Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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Apple has no reason to lie about this, and we know for certain that the Mac Pro's cooling system wasn't even up to the task of cooling the D9000. Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. |
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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You're going to see what you want to see, I guess. What you linked is repair program for Mac Pros manufactured during a 2-month window 1.5 years after launch.
We know the vast majority of Mac Pros work fine. We also know faster, more efficient (lower power,) pin-compatible, drop-in upgrades have been available for quite some time. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
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what do you mean by this? The principle of direct air cooled heat sinks and liquid cooling are very different. One uses a large metal radiator to increase the volume of heated material and rate of heat transference to air, the other uses the high heat capacity of a liquid to draw the heat away to an even larger heat sink.
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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I mean that water will transfer heat away from the die/block more slowly than a larger heatsink + fans would. Random claims of the Mac Pro's heatsink design having some silly thermal balance issues are unimportant with that consideration. What matters is thermal capacity and air volume moved.
When you consider the Mac Pro is still whisper quiet at its loudest, that cooler running / more powerful processors were available, and that Apple even threw the MacBook Air a CPU upgrade...Schiller's point of being handcuffed by the trashcan's cooling limitations sure seems like nonsense. |
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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You've made it abundantly clear that you're skeptical of the technical details Apple has provided, but you've failed to answer my simple question. What reason is there for Apple to lie about this?
Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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Now if it's a really legit pro machine - what more can they do to it make a Mac Pro? See Schiller's open letter for clues? Quote:
Which leads me to: what would an external Mac Pro Display look like? I would have to guess that the new bar would be 30" 8K, which sort of necessitates lots of fast I/O ports. |
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I shot the sherrif.
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An 8k display would likely be magnificent, but is that enough to justify an entire line of computers? TB3 can drive an 8k display in theory can't it? How many 8k displays do you imagine people would be using? You'd need to have multiples 8k displays (3+) before a MacPro would be required, right? I think the iMac pro is going to sell very well, and the Mac Pro will continue to see technical issues preventing its release until no one cares because the market has moved past the tower concept. Google is your frenemy. Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me Last edited by alcimedes : 2017-06-07 at 10:33. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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My 2013 vintage iMac still does everything I do with it quite well. I've not moved into making video, so even 4K is not yet a consideration. An SSD and more RAM could probably keep it happily chewing through multiple 24-50 MP photo libraries.
But, the new 10-bit, wide gamut, Retina displays attached to the new iMacs are tempting. An 8K 30" version would be glorious... ......................................... |
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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But, okay, even though the timeline for this argument makes zero sense, let's concede the point: at some point between 2013 and 2017 Apple "wrote off" the Pro market and then changed their mind, despite releasing a new or redesigned products aimed at pros in 2013, 2015, 2016, and 2017. You expect me to believe that Apple made a strategic decision of this magnitude and then changed their mind not because of anything having to do with profit or revenue, but because Marco Arment wouldn't stop whining about it? Really? Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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As soon as the self-proclaimed tech press said they did.
Apple made a market mistake with the 2013 Mac Pro, but the engineering/monetary effort they put into designing it is clear evidence that they did the opposite of "write off the Pro market". They misread the market, but they in no way wrote it off. It's a beautiful machine—inside and out—that any self-respecting pro would love to have on their desk (if it met their technical needs). And the iMac Pro did not just design itself in the last six months. It is a system that has likely been on the board for two years, and maybe more. I suspect the iMac Pro was to be added to the lineup regardless the Mac Pro's success (or lack thereof). I suspect any Apple computer has a design life at or over two years (even the Mac Mini). I suspect this because all of Apple's parts are custom engineered, not just off-the-shelf stuff we can pick up at Fry's. It takes far more dedication and engineering effort to design a computer from the ground up than it does to hork together whatever bits are laying around. This why the little folk can build their own PC, but not their own Mac. It takes great effort, which suggests (by way of the 2013 Mac Pro and the iMac Pro) that Apple is doing anything but "write off the Pro market". - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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I'm more excited about the accessories, tbh. An official space-gray wireless extended keyboard? Dark MMouse and Trackpad? Yes, yes and yes please.
Kinda kills the SG Matias Keyboard, but at least they've got the other colors and backlit versions as well. So it goes. |
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I shot the sherrif.
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So in my mind, it likely played out like this.
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There were quite a few articles coming out of Apple/tech press saying that the Desktop group had lost a lot of sway in the new Apple. That was also part of their abandoning the pro market. http://bgr.com/2017/04/07/mac-pro-release-date-2019/ According to that article, the decision to resurrect the "Mac Pro" came about after their new Pro laptop line didn't perform as well as they'd hoped, so the decision to 'fix' the Mac Pro seems recent, not like some brilliant secret strategy to let your flagship desktop languish for years only to reveal something great after your Pro client have left the platform. Again, all signs point to Apple abandoning the dedicated desktop. Why bother when they think everything is going mobile anyway. Sure, they're all over the Pro laptop market, but we're talking about the Mac Pro, not the MBP. Didn't Apple also pretty much screw the pooch in this same timeframe with regards to various Pro software packages? No, I see Apple's recent excuses as just that, excuses, not the reality. I can't believe that if Apple had dedicated any serious time/brain power to putting more powerful components in the same case/design, they couldn't have done it. They chose not to. They recently changed their mind, but don't have the stones to say they were planning on leaving the desktop market, so blamed it on technical limitations instead. Google is your frenemy. Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me Last edited by alcimedes : 2017-06-07 at 17:05. |
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(It's also a weird sign that the iMac Pro keyboard doesn't have a Touch Bar. Maybe they had a hard time getting that to sync wirelessly, but either way, that doesn't bode well to spreading the Touch Bar to all Macs. Which in turn will hamper adoption.)
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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Alcimedes sums it up pretty well. When you have no excuse, you make one up.
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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To use a camera analogy. What would happen to consumer camera sales at Nikon or Canon if they stopped making professional cameras and lenses? These are very different, so I don't want to make too direct of a comparison, but being absent from such a segment hurts brand identity/credibility and in the long run, consumer confidence.
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
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I shot the sherrif.
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Maybe they'll figure out what the real underlying problem is for it to solve, but aside from the fingerprint scanner for my password, I found the touchbar to be a wash at best, and often times annoying in that it would register a finger barely passing over the bar as a touch. (and typically my stupid left pinky/esc key would be the culprit.) I'm sure I'd have eventually learned to position my hands so that wouldn't be a problem, but in 9 out of 10 situations, I'd have been just as happy, if not happier with physical function keys. I think the fingerprint scanner isn't even really part of the touchbar, but rather is a stand alone piece. Give me a laptop with function keys and the fingerprint scanner and that would be the perfect combo. Google is your frenemy. Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me |
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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A large volume of flowing water can move heat away from the water block adequately, but it is worse than a copper block. It will conduct heat more slowly and consequently also retain heat. That's one reason why radiators/heat-exchangers have to be so massive, any why the finned surface area is several times greater. Even with my 240x60mm and 360x45mm radiators, it would take only an hour or so of gaming for the system to overheat without fans. |
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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The solution: Not the TouchBar The TouchBar is merely a sandbox...its sole purpose is to add contextual touch UIs to Mac OS while still keeping it segregated. It'll grow downward, eventually replacing the keyboard and touchpad long before Apple adds touch directly to the primary display. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
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Last edited by Dr. Bobsky : 2017-06-08 at 00:32. |
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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I made a point about irrecoverable inefficiencies in water cooling at the water block to point out how silly the concept of thermal balance is on a shared heatsink. The fact is the shared heatsink in the Mac Pro is much better at conducting heat than a water block attached to anything.
Why you feel the need to explain the pros of water cooling to me specifically, I don't know. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
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I think Schiller's point is valid though. The system was designed around two lower power graphics cards and the ability of the system to handle the heat produced by them. Moving to a single, larger and hotter gpu (as is what happened to gpu computation over the years), would require a different design with a larger heat sink. This would necessitate a redesign of the case. And if you are already doing that, then you might as well start over. |
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I do think they missed the boat on haptic feedback and hope that happens eventually. The trackpad has it, and even an iPhone's home button has it, yet the Touch Bar does not. I also worry, eight months in, that developer adoption isn't more. On a positive note, there are two Touch Bar-specific sessions and one Touch Bar-specific lab this WWDC, so they are without question still drumming up support. Technologically, Touch ID and Touch Bar do both rely on the T1 chip. Thus, adding Touch ID to a physical F key MacBook is totally possible, but also almost as expensive. That's probably part of why the MacBook Escape doesn't do that (deliberate differentiation aside). |
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But it's indeed incomplete. Quote:
*) With one exception: first-person shooters. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
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Haptatic feedback on the trackpad gets quite annoying at times -- especially when Keynote or similar programs have built in activators for the response; I do not need to feel when my image is aligned with another one and I certainly don't appreciate my finger getting kicked off the trackpad because the application designer wants me to feel a bump.
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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I'm not sure I want to lose the physical keys of a keyboard, but I'd be interested in trying a touch-surface sub-display control for navigation on laptops and desktops.
I'm not criticizing Apple's design choice here, but I would imagine that the trackpad would be a better natural location for it? Nice spot for a file list to contextually appear, or a zoomed view from an image editor for example. They'd have to work out all the logic so the trackpad gave me the right display at the right time, and was easy to toggle, but it could be a nice addition to a laptop, iThink... ......................................... |
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Sneaky Punk
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As a mechanical keyboard user, I also don't look forward to the loss of that physical feedback. I just don't see the need to remove physical keys, since it doesn't solve a problem. Sure a touch keyboard could be physically smaller, and it's fine for texting on a phone, but for any long typing sessions a touch keyboard is difficult to use.
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