[psmith2.0]

This story chilled me to the bone, and broke my heart into about six pieces (and it takes a lot to do either of those).

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/19/hom...cks/index.html

Is this what it's come to? Honestly?

From the story:

The 15-year-old and his friends were taunting the homeless man -- throwing sticks and leaves -- after having a couple of beers with him. No big deal, Moore says, but he's sorry for what came next. It was a mistake, he said, a sudden primal surge that made him and his friends Luis Oyola, 16, and 17-year-old Andrew Ihrcke begin punching and kicking Baum. "Luis says 'I'm gonna go hit him,' We're all laughing, thought he was joking around,'" but he wasn't, Moore concedes. "We just all started hitting him." They hurled anything they could find -- rocks, bricks, even Baum's barbecue grill -- and pounded the 49-year-old with a pipe and with the baseball bat he kept at his campsite for protection. Ihrcke smeared his own feces on Baum's face before cutting him with a knife "to see if he was alive," Moore said. After destroying Baum's camp, the boys left the homeless man -- head wedged in his own grill -- under a piece of plastic where they hoped the "animals would eat" him. Then, Moore says, they took off to grab a bite at McDonald's.

What?!? Each paragraph gets worse and more mind-numbing than the one before, doesn't it? The "going to McDonald's" part at the end just says it all...they didn't even give a damn, or feel the least bit troubled by it.

That terrifies me because you know there are people out there like that.

Just read the entire article - if you can.

We are so off the rails...

My only solace is that this guy and his buddies are all in the joint for 15 or so years...and, most likely, experiencing the same sort of desperate fear on a daily basis that they - for no reason whatsover - inflicted on Rex Baum, the homeless guy they killed "for the fun of it".

Hate me for saying this if you want, but I hope those guys are getting a true dose of "prison affection" on a regular basis. Because if anyone's ever deserved it...



They took a man's life, and they've pretty much wrecked their own (honestly, what does their future hold for them, once - or if - they make it out of prison?)...and for what?

What's that particular thought process? At some point, while kicking the man's head in, does it cross their mind "ohmigod, this is so wrong...we have to stop".

Apparently not.

That disconnect is truly bone-chilling to me. And then that massive, "WTF?!?" leap from "hey, let's screw with this homeless guy" (which is wrong enough on its own to begin with, mind you) to "let's kill this guy in the most animalistic, degrading way we can muster" (and all three be equally of that mindset to actually do it...not one of them pulls back and tries to stop it).

Teens. Young teens. With apparently no previous records or serious trouble.



This story just wrecked my mood like no other. I was having a pretty okay day...

[Bryson]

W

T

F



I don't know what to say. They're animals.

[InactionMan]

Y'know, I'm opposed to prisons. I don't think they work. I think they should be abolished. And I sure as hell don't believe in capital punishment. But when I hear shit like this it makes me realize that there are a select few in this world that simply cannot be punished enough. Prison rape won't be enough, capital punishment is too easy, these kids can't be reintegrated into society. There's just nothing to do with them. I think the best thing would be to throw them into a 19th century style mental hospital. Just tie them up and chain the fuckers to a wall.

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by InactionMan Y'know, I'm opposed to prisons. I don't think they work. I think they should be abolished.

We can have our debate on various things, I suppose. But frankly, I gotta say I'm a really big fan of the idea of murderers, rapists and other hardcore shitheads NOT out walking and living among us, thank you very much. Whether it "works" or not is a bit further down on my list of "Things Paul Worries About".

I'm out here, they're in there. Works for me. They wouldn't be in there if they didn't do something to warrant it.

What (I'm almost afraid to ask) is your solution/alternative, if prisons are "abolished"?

Just let 'em all out and "hope for the best"?



Please tell me you've got something a bit more sensible (and safe) in mind. Otherwise I'll have to start drinking right away (and modifying my "ignore list" settings...).

[torifile]

holy shit. that was truly the worst thing I've ever read. left his head on the grill? so they decapitated him? after smearing feces on him (which means that at least on of them shat in front of the others)? I was half surprised nor to read that the raped him, too. only that would have made it more horrific. damn.

[psmith2.0]

I know. It's just about the worst thing I've ever read, for all kinds of reasons (the ages involved, the callousness, the brutality, the helpless, defenseless victim who was already struggling with a rough life and didn't deserve to go out like this, etc.).

It's sad, it makes you angry, it's scary, it numbs you, etc.

It's truly horrible. I had no idea. I kept reading the story thinking "crap, what's the next paragraph going to say? Does it get any better?"



Nope, never really did.

[Naderfan]

Milwaukee is just falling apart. This comes after the sentencing has begun on those teens who gang raped an 11-year-old over Labor Day weekend. A few years ago, there was a big problem with roving gangs of random kids who just started beating and killing people (mostly homeless) for the fun of it. Another group pushed an old man in front of a bus. it's really frightening.

[psmith2.0]

Yikes.

[chucker]

Unbelievable.

[Banana]

*cough* Clockwork Orange *cough*

[World Leader Pretend]

Sounds like Lord of the Flies as well

Weird

[thuh Freak]

Who among us hasn't done the same? We were all kids, we've all killed people just for kicks. Let's not pretend like these kids are some monsters or need special treatment. These aren't the outcasts of society; they are society. If anything, they deserve medals or at least a parade.

Shower them with praise, I say. And by praise, I mean bullets.

[InactionMan]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 We can have our debate on various things, I suppose. But frankly, I gotta say I'm a really big fan of the idea of murderers, rapists and other hardcore shitheads NOT out walking and living among us, thank you very much. Whether it "works" or not is a bit further down on my list of "Things Paul Worries About". I'm out here, they're in there. Works for me. They wouldn't be in there if they didn't do something to warrant it. What (I'm almost afraid to ask) is your solution/alternative, if prisons are "abolished"? Just let 'em all out and "hope for the best"? Please tell me you've got something a bit more sensible (and safe) in mind. Otherwise I'll have to start drinking right away (and modifying my "ignore list" settings...).

Obviously, I can't really justify aboloshing all forms of incarceration with people like this running around but most crimes don't really need a huge prison term.

We'll save my crazy prison debate for another time. We should all just bask in our universal hatred for these pukes for now.

[psmith2.0]

Fair enough.

[billybobsky]

Justice would be for them to be assured of a life of homelessness... Send them to prison until they are 42 without so much as a high school degree. Cut them off from their families. Pay them nothing for their service while in jail. Send them off to a probation officer who doesn't care. Pass laws that make it hard for felons to get jobs, even menial ones. And wait... Within a year of leaving prison they will know what it is like to have lived like the man they killed...

[turtle]

I'm with billybobsky in that they need to really suffer for what they've done. A cozy cell until they are about 30 (assuming they don't get out early on parole) won't matter much to them. This is just plain sad.

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by torifile holy shit. that was truly the worst thing I've ever read. left his head on the grill? so they decapitated him? after smearing feces on him (which means that at least on of them shat in front of the others)? I was half surprised nor to read that the raped him, too. only that would have made it more horrific. damn.

For what it's worth, I think that they left his head wedged in the grill, as in, stuck. Not decapitated.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by turtle2472 I'm with billybobsky in that they need to really suffer for what they've done. A cozy cell until they are about 30 (assuming they don't get out early on parole) won't matter much to them. This is just plain sad.

That's definitely not enough. The sad thing is, letting them out at 30 gives them somewhat of a chance at a normal life. They'll be able to get their GED's in prison, and they'll have a slim chance to have a life. They took that chance away from Rex Baum, but society gives them a chance? Lame.

Our laws about sentencing minors are completely antiquated. There is absolutely zero reason to try someone for this crime as a minor. By the time you're 10 you know better than this, let alone 15.

[turtle]

Originally Posted by fcgriz That's definitely not enough. The sad thing is, letting them out at 30 gives them somewhat of a chance at a normal life. They'll be able to get their GED's in prison, and they'll have a slim chance to have a life. They took that chance away from Rex Baum, but society gives them a chance? Lame. Our laws about sentencing minors are completely antiquated. There is absolutely zero reason to try someone for this crime as a minor. By the time you're 10 you know better than this, let alone 15.

You're right, getting out at 30 is too early. I meant to say that was based on their current 15 year sentence. Personally, I wouldn't mind if they stayed locked up. I don't like the idea of having to pay their way though through tax dollars.

[Banana]

*cough* gulag *cough*

[Elysium]

I read this clip this morning. Truly disturbing. Another thing that pissed me off was the "pass the buck" blame game that seems to go around to try and explain their actions.

Some teens have even taped themselves in the act. Others have said they were inspired by "Bumfights," a video series created in 2002 and sold on the Web that features homeless people pummeling each other for the promise of a few bucks.

Ihrcke told police that killing "the bum" reminded him of playing a violent video game, a police report shows.

Seriously, it wasn't them, it was society.

I believe that if you even attempt to use that excuse without any plausible reason why you should be handed an even stiffer sentence.

Judge: You didn't know what you were doing was wrong?
Defendant: No, your honor.
Judge: Tell me have you lived in a cave for your whole life?
Defendant: No, your honor.
Judge: Then you've had ample reason to interact with society to learn the reasons condemning your actions. You have willfully ignored the obvious and now must pay the consequences.

[murbot]

Originally Posted by Banana *cough* gulag *cough*

That's pretty much the series of sounds that will be made when he's trying to show his cellmate how much he wants to be kept safe.

[World Leader Pretend]

I say we chain them up in an alley somewhere with their story about how they f-ed with this homeless guy tattooed on their chests, and let other homeless people beat them up. Much more effective than jail, IMO

[psmith2.0]

Sometimes the evil little monkey part of me (I let him out about 2-3 times a year) finds these "your punishment is to have done to you what you did to your victim" sentences intriguing.

Certainly in this case it doesn't sound half bad.

This has bothered me much of the day...I kinda wish I'd never seen the story because I keep thinking back to that guy, and what must've been going through his mind. Made me sad this entire afternoon.

"I'm homeless, I've already got it tough enough. I don't bother anyone...I've just got my little camp area over here to myself where I just live my life...and now these three guys are doing all this to me...I think they're wanting to kill me...what have I done to deserve this?"

*sigh*



Grrrr...I don't know what's wrong with people, I really don't. These three kids get none of my sympathy or "understanding". Not a damn drop. The guy they killed, however, I'll probably remember his name for years to come.

[709]

Originally Posted by cynical_rock Seriously, it wasn't them, it was society.

About that video game quip...

Gabe over at PA mentioned this story on Monday, and yesterday the stepmother of the 15 year old wrote in. Pretty crazy stuff. This kid was well and truly bad fucking news.

[turtle]

Thanks for posting that 709. It was a long read but I'm glad I read it. It's really a sad state when this kind of thing happens. I'm not following the story through the news, only here. I hope he gets the help he needs to manages to get himself locked up for good in there. He's certainly not a dumb kid, he has street smarts. I just hope the legal system sees the truth before the media can hide it.

[Robo]

Since I started at EB Games, I've lost faith in America's youth.

A few days ago this little kid was looking for the most violent GBA game he could get. Now, the GBA has roughly the power of a Super Nintendo. There aren't that many violent games on it. But that didn't stop him from looking for one. I was recommending good games, but the questions he was asking scared me. "Can you shoot people? Can you run people over?"

Now, sometimes I do play more "mature" games, and they can be fun. But they're fun because they're well-made games - they're not fun because they're violent. (If anything, they're fun in spite of it.)

The next day I was helping another kid find a computer game he would like. I asked him what his favorite type of game was. He said "Violence." "Violence" isn't a genre, folks.

And the next day I overheard a little kid telling his father that "E games are fun, but T games are funner." How does a game's content rating have any effect on it's "fun-ness"? I could maybe understand why an older gamer would prefer a game designed for "Mature" gamers, but this kid wasn't even a "Teen" yet. But he thinks games that aren't appropriate for him are somehow "funner."

And this was just in three days.

I never really bought into the whole "Guns don't kill people, kids who play video games kill people" bit - but these little kids are beginning to change my mind. It's not about the gameplay to these kids - it's about the violence. They get some sort of primal satisfaction out of killing virtual people, even if the gameplay itself is busted, repetitive, or dull. These kids honestly scare me, I'm not gonna lie.

[alcimedes]

That was a very heartfelt letter from that mother-in-law, I feel bad for their family.

[psmith2.0]

That letter from the "stepmom" (and Roboman's post above) are quite telling.

There are, as Dennis Miller once said, just some evil motherfuckers in the world.



They're just broken. No fixing them, in many cases.

I've taken some flak for my comments on certain video games and things like that, but I'm sorry...you can't tell me that some kids - not all, but some - seek this stuff out and get off on it a bit too much. It only adds to their bad wiring. And if they've got little or no conscience to begin with, you know damn good and well that some of these games (or websites, or music, etc.) only whet their appetite for "the next level".

There is a common thread running through many of these cases of "teens going wild".

It's not the main cause/factor, but I think you'd be a blind, flaming idiot if you thought it wasn't involved someway (an instigator, a release, a curiosity enhancer, a numbing or desensitizing agent, etc.).

No, I'm not saying "ban" anything. I'm not like that. But it's about time we pull our heads out of the sand (and our butts) and ask some tough, serious questions about things.

Sounds like, from this woman's letter, this kid was completely off the rails and nothing could be done. That's sad. Maybe he just came out of the womb that way, but that's so tough for me to buy completely. And the fact that he's got a brother, raised in the same household, who is a complete 180 degrees from the murdering shithead...



It's all horrible.

Something tells me this guy's time in prison is particularly brutal. He's got a little boy babyface, so I'm sure he's passed around like a joint at a Dead show. I wonder if, while lying in his bunk at night, he wishes he could go back and "do it all over again".

I'm sure, now, that he might.

But I don't feel sorry for him. Bad seed or not, you know right and wrong. There's no way I can believe that, while killing Rex Baum, he was "unaware" of the wrongness and evil he was doing. For that, he deserves whatever is happening to him.

But what about others? What about efforts to catch those situations on the front-end, before something terrible happens?

It gets messy, doesn't it? Issues and questions of intrusion, privacy, etc. all come up. Parents want to be their kids' "buddy" and "pal", and the worst offense of all, to some, is not "looking cool". But it's not so simple as "being strict" and "enforcing disclipline" because it just so happens that people I knew in high school who were among the wildest had those types of homes. Meanwhile, with my own young, lenient and fairly inexperienced parents, I never got into bad, true trouble (still haven't). So there's obviously no black-and-white, "do it this way for best results" approach. By all reason, I should be a complete monster! But I'm not.



Go figure.

Ugh...what a waste, this kid and this whole tale. Makes my head - and heart - hurt.

[specter]

Ihrcke told police that killing "the bum" reminded him of playing a violent video game, a police report shows.

Have you seen anything THAT stupid? I don't know what cultural level these kids have, but I doubt that they would anyway become an integral part of the society!