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Wine on OSX?
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lectro
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Francisco
 
2006-01-14, 14:01

Now that the intel Macs are out, I'm curious to see if Wine will run on them. It runs in X on linux, and OSX can run X apps on the OSX desktop, so it seems very likely that OSX will be able to run Windows apps right on the OSX desktop.

Bring on the spyware!
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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2006-01-14, 14:03

Correct me on this but WINE, while better than standard emulation, does not mean that everything will run right out of the box. If a particular software doesn't go, you would have to "loan" this software to the WINE team and see if they can get it up and running. Even then, there'll be kinks here and there.
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lectro
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Francisco
 
2006-01-14, 14:10

Yeah, it's nowhere near perfect, but for people who are switching and can't let go of that one important app that only runs in Windows, it would be really nice if they didn't have to have a full installation of Windows on their Mac.
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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2006-01-14, 14:31

Yeah- I have CAD software that are win-only and would prefer to have a Mac over PC- I'd be interested if they can get it up and running, but I'm not counting on it, given the complexity of CAD software.
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Blue Light Bandit
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2006-01-14, 14:55

http://www.winehq.com/site/docs/wine-faq/index
http://darwine.opendarwin.org/

That should answer your questions.

Quote:
2.2. Does Wine emulate a full computer?

No, as the name says, Wine Is Not a (CPU) Emulator. Wine just provides the Windows API. This means that you will need an x86-compatible processor to run an x86 Windows application, for instance from Intel or AMD. The advantage is that, unlike solutions that rely on CPU emulation, Wine runs applications at full speed. Sometimes a program run under Wine will be slower than when run on a copy of Microsoft Windows, but this is more due to the fact that Microsoft has heavily optimized parts of their code, whereas mostly Wine is not well optimized (yet). Occasionally, an app may run faster under Wine than on Windows. Most apps run at roughly the same speed.
Quote:
The Darwine project intends to port and develop WINE as well as other supporting tools that will allow Darwin and Mac OS X users to run Windows Applications, and to provide a Win32 API compatibility at application source code level.
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AtHomeBoy_2000
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
 
2006-01-14, 15:22

Can someone help explian the DarWINE thing to me a little better? I read their webpage and it still left me a little confused. It shows that it can run simplpe apps like Calculator or MineSweaper. but what i need it to run is a much more indepth program called ACS which is used to hemp manage Church Membership. i want to switch my church over to Macs, but we cant not have that software and I'm nto going to pay $100+ for VirtualPC just to run one progam.
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Blue Light Bandit
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2006-01-14, 15:29

Direct from the FAQ:

Quote:
What is the targeted audience?

Currently the targeted audience is Developers or Hackers. Users are discouraged from running Darwine because it is still undergoing improvements on Mac OS X, and there is still much to do.
Quote:
Is the Darwin/Mac OS X release of Wine currently able to run Windows executable (.exe)?

No. We are currently working on integrating an x86 emulator in wine in order to run Win32 exe on a PowerPC Box. But on Darwin-x86 a Win32 .exe should run within wine with a limited effort.
Quote:
What is going on with the Apple Decision to Switch to Intel?

It means that Wine will run with much less effort on those Intel Mac that on the PowerPC Mac. We have already been working on the Mac OS X/x86 support, but we are not able to test it right now. If someone with OpenDarwin/x86 running can give a try to the compilation process, and the running process, we are interested about his feedback. Report it on the darwine-devel Mailing list
Darwine will eventually provide everything that Wine provides. Wine provides the Windows API, meaning any Windows-specific code "just works." However, it only "just works" on x86 processors because binary code is CPU platform-specific. That's why the PowerPC version needs an x86 emulator to run off-the-shelf Windows apps. The release of x86-based Intel Macs means that Wine will work with minimal effort, though, and provide full-speed execution of Windows executables.

To answer your specific question, yes, it should run your ACS program. Wine is widely used by the Linux community to run all sorts of apps from very small to very large. However, the Darwine project is not yet ready for regular use. Don't start preaching to your church about this just yet.
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Banana
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Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2006-01-14, 15:38

and what about the problem OS/2 encountered; ever-changing library of APIs? How does WINE work around this?

Their myth-busting page doesn't really explain how they can do it beyond that they can add more APIs, and currently has almost most of oft-referenced APIs.
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ZachPruckowski
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2006-01-14, 21:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana
and what about the problem OS/2 encountered; ever-changing library of APIs? How does WINE work around this?

Their myth-busting page doesn't really explain how they can do it beyond that they can add more APIs, and currently has almost most of oft-referenced APIs.
Yes, it is obviously an ongoing project. But it seems to me that the addition of a lot of Mactel users to the potential WINE community should help them get most programs working.
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lectro
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Francisco
 
2006-01-14, 23:51

According to their website (http://www.acstechnologies.com/churc...1999960857.htm), ACS's software can run on OS X. Maybe you should call them and ask if there's any easy way to transfer your data from a PC to a Mac.

You might want to be careful about bringing a computer that brandishes a representation of the forbidden fruit of knowledge into your church, but then, I guess getting rid of the Windows PC will make it easier not to take the Lord's name in vain.
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AtHomeBoy_2000
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
 
2006-01-15, 12:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by lectro
According to their website (http://www.acstechnologies.com/churc...1999960857.htm), ACS's software can run on OS X. Maybe you should call them and ask if there's any easy way to transfer your data from a PC to a Mac.

You might want to be careful about bringing a computer that brandishes a representation of the forbidden fruit of knowledge into your church, but then, I guess getting rid of the Windows PC will make it easier not to take the Lord's name in vain.
LMAO! THat last paragraph was VERY well writen. Also, I had NO idea ACS ran on Mac. I Totally missed that when i was looking at their site.
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Anthem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
 
2006-01-15, 19:38

I've been using wine on Linux, and it's great. It doesn't run everything, but it runs a lot of things.

In my ideal world, Apple would buy the two major wine companies: Transgaming and Codeweavers. Both could be had on the cheap, and they'd rock if they combined codebases.
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ZachPruckowski
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2006-01-15, 22:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthem
I've been using wine on Linux, and it's great. It doesn't run everything, but it runs a lot of things.

In my ideal world, Apple would buy the two major wine companies: Transgaming and Codeweavers. Both could be had on the cheap, and they'd rock if they combined codebases.
Isn't that counter to the whole Linux idea? Wouldn't an open-source project like WINE be hurt by being under corporate control? Or are you just expecting Apple to fund it and let it stay open source?

Personally, I don't see Apple doing that, for the simple reason that they don't want to come across as supporting Windows on Macs. They will let it happen, but they won't want to help it.
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Blue Light Bandit
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2006-01-15, 22:56

Well, most successful open-source projects have corporate backing of some sort. Don't think that Mozilla, et al. came about just from volunteer programmers!
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Banana
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Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2006-01-15, 23:20

Interesting. And what's the profit angle in this? Could Apple conceivably back up and stand to make money off this, even if it's not under their control?
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Dr_LHA
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
 
2006-01-16, 10:59

Zach. Neither of those companies "is" Wine. They simply develop friendly user interfaces and extensions to Wine to help them to be more usable to the general public.

Codeweavers take the Wine codebase and add stuff to it to make it easy to install MS Office, IE and other apps. I tried their demo recently and it worked pretty well, I installed Office 2003 on my old Linux Desktop at home.

Transgaming (or now Cedega I believe) have an old fork of the Wine code that was licensed under a different license that allows them to not release the source code for their changes. They are mainly interested in emulating DirectX to get Windows games to run on Linux.

Wine itself is seperate, but helped by these companies (at least by Codeweavers). If Apple bought both of these companies it would not affect the Wine project itself I believe.

BTW - It wouldn't make much sense for Apple to buy Codeweavers as their focus is getting Office to run on Linux. I can't see Apple promoting the running of the Windows version of Office under OS X!
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Anthem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
 
2006-01-16, 12:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_LHA
BTW - It wouldn't make much sense for Apple to buy Codeweavers as their focus is getting Office to run on Linux. I can't see Apple promoting the running of the Windows version of Office under OS X!
It's true that a lot of CodeWeaver's money comes from office compatibility, but that's hardly the only thing Crossover is good for.

As for "how does this benefit open source" I was assuming Apple would do what they've done with BSD and KHTML... put together a snazzy Apple front-end but release any changes to the underlying code back to the community. Wine is a killer to set up and get going, but the underlying API is pretty solid. The underlying API, by the way, is LGPL (just like KHTML), so Apple couldn't just buy it up and keep changes to itself... it would have to be shared. Apple's learned to be pretty good about that, though.
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ZachPruckowski
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2006-01-16, 13:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana
Interesting. And what's the profit angle in this? Could Apple conceivably back up and stand to make money off this, even if it's not under their control?
Apple wouldn't want to make money on this per se. But if they can get WINE cleaned up and looking nice and easy, it's a strong point in making Mac converts. And if WINE can handle DirectX well, then it'll appeal to gamers who also want a nice family computer.

I only miss two things on the Mac. One of them is the random little tiny programs that are too small to port, but are useful every once in a while, but are Windows only. The other is gaming. Most games get ported, and I'm happy with Civ III and AoE 2x instead of Civ4 and AoE3. But there are games that don't get ported, like Total War, or don't get fully ported, like AoE 2 multiplayer doesn't work Mac-to-PC. Therefore, I'm the perfect candidate for a WINE that does DirectX well, and I'd pay for it.
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Dr_LHA
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
 
2006-01-16, 15:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthem
It's true that a lot of CodeWeaver's money comes from office compatibility, but that's hardly the only thing Crossover is good for.
True. But if Apple has any desire for Microsoft to continue making Office for Mac, buying a company who's main business is getting Office to run on non-Windows platforms would hardly be a great move.
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Blue Light Bandit
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2006-01-16, 17:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_LHA
True. But if Apple has any desire for Microsoft to continue making Office for Mac, buying a company who's main business is getting Office to run on non-Windows platforms would hardly be a great move.
I guess you missed the announcement that, as of MacWorld a week ago, Microsoft is committing to at least an additional five years of supporting and developing Office on Mac OS X on PowerPC and Intel... in a formal agreement, no less.
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ZachPruckowski
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2006-01-16, 19:12

If MS felt backstabbed, there is a chance it could renege on it's deal. Note that I said "felt backstabbed", as opposed to actually backstabbed. They probably expect Virtual PC for Mactels to be the only major way to run Windows on Mactels (outside dualbooting). They're wrong, but if Apple supports a MS competitor at that, MS could get ticked. I just mean to say that I don't see their "commitment" as legally binding, or MS may just get out of it somehow if it is.
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Paranoid666au
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
2006-01-16, 22:00

What's it too MS what version of Office a Mac user is using? And the Mac version of Office is better os there's no point of running the Windows version.

EDIT: So what if the Windows version of Office runs on a Mac. Most Mac users are going to prefer the Aqua based Mac native version of Office anyway. I know I'd rather the Mac version.
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ZachPruckowski
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2006-01-16, 22:55

It's not about the version of Office you use. I agree, in principle, that all other things equal (as is the case with Office), that a native mac version is better. But my point (and the previous few poster's points, as I understood them), is that MS can hold Office for Mac over Apple, since Apple would lose users or potential converts without it. Now, someone said that MS and Apple have an understanding and MS is committed to making Office for Mac until Dec. 31st, 2010. But I said that MS could always go back on that, if Apple tries to "scoop" Virtual PC as the way to run Windows on Mac, in this case, by supporting or buying the major companies developing WINE.
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Dr_LHA
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
 
2006-01-17, 09:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Light Bandit
I guess you missed the announcement that, as of MacWorld a week ago, Microsoft is committing to at least an additional five years of supporting and developing Office on Mac OS X on PowerPC and Intel... in a formal agreement, no less.
Of course I didn't miss that announcement. Just because Microsoft announced 5 years support doesn't mean that Apple doesn't have to continue to keep them sweet though. I have a contract at work guaranteeing me several years of employment, but that doesn't mean I can go a shit on my boss' doorstep.
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MacConvert
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
 
2006-01-18, 11:02

I'm going to get off of the Office topic here and ask more about DirectX and DarWINE.

How is gaming coming along on DarWINE? Do we suspect that we'll be able to run Windows games on the Intel Macs under DarWINE? If so, how far out is that?
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bassplayinMacFiend
Banging the Bottom End
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2006-01-18, 15:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid666au
What's it too MS what version of Office a Mac user is using? And the Mac version of Office is better os there's no point of running the Windows version.

EDIT: So what if the Windows version of Office runs on a Mac. Most Mac users are going to prefer the Aqua based Mac native version of Office anyway. I know I'd rather the Mac version.
Yea, I'll just use the Mac version of Access. Oh snap, there is no Mac version of Access, is there.

There's also no version of Visio or Project. While as a home user I wouldn't need these programs, at work I do need these programs from time to time.
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Paranoid666au
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
2006-01-18, 16:31

What does access do and what the well is Visio and Project?
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Canadark
 
2006-01-18, 16:35

Access is a database program. Not a very good one, but commonly used because...it's part of Microsoft Office.
Visio is a simple drawing program like OmniGraffle - drag and drop templates, flow charts, that sort of thing. It's pretty good, to be honest.
Project is, surprisingly, a project management app. It creates those endless wall-charts with dependent timeframes and stuff. Builders love it. Never used it myself.
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Paranoid666au
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
2006-01-18, 17:16

Oh OK well what about that File thingy, gees I can't remember the name but I thinks a database app.

FileMaker! That's what it's called. Isn't that better than Access?
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mattf
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Devonshire - nearly twinned with Narnia
 
2006-01-19, 04:12

Better is usually a subjective term. But in this instance, yes. Anything is better than Access.

I liken Access to my Grandfather. It's ugly and it's going to forget the important stuff I want it to remember.
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