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New Apple Silicon (M1 Pro and M1 Max)
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chucker
 
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2021-11-05, 13:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Interesting story out on the AS front.

The future sounds bright.



I suppose "third generation" is M3? Or is the new M1 Pro/Max considered the second generation and what's coming next (M2 in 2022?) considered third-generation?
Given it says 40 cores, I think the answer is neither: this is an M1 Extreme / M1 Ultimate (or whatever stupid branding suffixes they come up with).

So far, we have:
  • the M1, which contains 4 Firestorm and 4 Icestorm cores, making it a bit of an A14X
  • the M1 Max, with 8 Firestorm and 2 Icestorm cores, up to 32 GPU cores, and four LPDDR5 RAM chips
  • the M1 Pro, with 6 or 8 Firestorm and 2 Icestorm cores, up to 16 GPU cores, and two LPDDR5 RAM chips

I bring this up (and in this particular order!) because there was a rumor around April that a chip design called "Jade C-Die" was going to arrive in late 2021, and that, derived from that, we'd see a "Jade C-Chop", and a "Jade 2C-Die" and "Jade 4C-Die". Based on that, John Siracusa made this mockup.

What actually ended up happening is surprisingly close to that rumor. If we consider the M1 Max the "Jade C-Die", then the M1 Pro is the "Chop" version, with portions chopped off. In Siracusa's mockup, basically the right third. And in the actual M1 Pro and Max? The bottom third.

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/17019/M1PRO.jpg vs. https://images.anandtech.com/doci/17019/M1MAX.jpg

The M1 Pro is basically an M1 Max with half the LPDDR5 chips, half the SLC blocks, and half the GPU cores chopped off. So that part of the rumor seems to have been right on the money. Extrapolating from that, suppose the "Jade 2C/4C-Die" part is, too. If you look at Siracusa's diagram again, that basically means you take the M1 Max, and add another whole M1 Max underneath it (2C), and then you add a whole block of those two on the side (4C, a 2x2 grid).

And that, the supposition goes, is what they'll do for the high-end desktop Macs (space grey Mac mini? 30-inch iMac Pro? Mac Pro? All three of those?).

The downside would be: even on this very high end, you'd be constrained in your RAM choices by the very specific amount you got when you ordered it. Plus, it won't be a lot. The current Mac Pro goes up to 1.5 TB RAM (yes, that's 1536 Gigabytes). This setup would "only" go to 256 GB.

On the other hand, it would lead to astounding performance levels, assuming your code (just as before with the iMac Pro and Mac Pro) can take advantage of heavy parallelization. The M1 Extreme would have a memory bandwidth of 800 GB/s, and the Ultimate of 1,600 GB/s, simply because what they'd do is double the memory chips again.

And for the same reason, such a Mac with an M1 Extreme would have up to 20 CPU cores and up to 64 GPU cores, and a Mac with an M1 Ultimate with the cited up to 40 CPU cores and up to 128 GPU cores. It's simply four M1s Max in a 2x2 grid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
I assumed the "generation" count would be designated by the M1, M2, M3, etc. labeling, but I'm the first to admit that I don't understand anything about this stuff beyond the lightest surface.
No, I think you understand just fine, it's just that the choice of word "generation" is unfortunate here. "Third wave of releases" would be more apt.

There was the A14 and soon after the M1, then a year later, there were the M1 Pro and M1 Max, and now, some time next year, we might see the M1 Extreme and M1 Ultimate. (I don't think Apple would actually use "Ultimate", but I also can't think of a less stupid adjective. "M1 Blowaway"? "M1 Offthecharts"?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
I just assumed any new Mac Pro coming in 2022 would be on an M2 Pro/Max, but maybe that's not how it works? The M1, and all its variations, could be in the picture for some time and it won't be a yearly M1, M2, M3 type of thing at all.
Yes and no!

It seems what Apple is doing here is a bit similar to Intel. They introduce a bunch of CPU cores like the A14's Firestorm (on the "performance cores") and Icestorm (on the "efficiency cores"). Then they move that up to the M1. Then further up to the M1 Pro/Max a year later. And then all the way up to the Extreme/Ultimate another year down the road. But, in the meantime, they've also introduced another generation (here, it fits) of CPU cores, namely the A15's Avalanche and Blizzard.

So far, we have not seen a Mac with those cores. My guess is we'll see an M2 MacBook Air (and perhaps Mac mini, and perhaps even 24-inch iMac) in spring/summer of 2022, and that the M2 will use Avalanche/Blizzard. That is, each of the cores inside will be a little faster and better™ than the M1's. In either late 2022 or some time 2023, then, we will see the M2 Pro/Max, replacing the M1 Pro/Max that just came out.

Apple's calculation being that pros need a lot of cores (and special features like ProRes acceleration) more than they need the most current cores.

This is similar to how Intel rolls out a microarchitecture like Skylake — on the desktop in 2015, on the laptop in 2016, and on workstations/servers in 2017. But meanwhile, by 2017, desktops and laptops already get newer microarchitectures.
  quote
psmith2.0
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2021-11-05, 14:00

Ah, okay...I understand things a little more now. I rarely wade into these waters because I've just never followed/understand that side of it all. Thanks.

I've told my Mom that there looks to be coming a nice new, redesigned Air(?) in the first half of 2022, and she's looking forward to upgrading from her 2013 Air (8GB RAM/128GB SSD). Should be quite a step up in every way (double the RAM*/SSD, the display, processor, etc.).


*She'll BTO to 16GB
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kscherer
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2021-11-05, 14:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
The downside would be: even on this very high end, you'd be constrained in your RAM choices by the very specific amount you got when you ordered it. Plus, it won't be a lot. The current Mac Pro goes up to 1.5 TB RAM (yes, that's 1536 Gigabytes). This setup would "only" go to 256 GB.

On the other hand, it would lead to astounding performance levels, assuming your code (just as before with the iMac Pro and Mac Pro) can take advantage of heavy parallelization. The M1 Extreme would have a memory bandwidth of 800 GB/s, and the Ultimate of 1,600 GB/s, simply because what they'd do is double the memory chips again.

And for the same reason, such a Mac with an M1 Extreme would have up to 20 CPU cores and up to 64 GPU cores, and a Mac with an M1 Ultimate with the cited up to 40 CPU cores and up to 128 GPU cores. It's simply four M1s Max in a 2x2 grid.
No matter how you stack it, if we compare the current M1Pro and M1Max performance numbers, the M1E and M1U will be game-changers at the high end of the personal computing industry. Intel will never be able to catch up, and neither will AMD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
There was the A14 and soon after the M1, then a year later, there were the M1 Pro and M1 Max, and now, some time next year, we might see the M1 Extreme and M1 Ultimate. (I don't think Apple would actually use "Ultimate", but I also can't think of a less stupid adjective. "M1 Blowaway"? "M1 Offthecharts"?)
Why don't we just call it the M1

I had been predicting M1x and M1xX as naming conventions, with M1X Pro in pro machines. I guess I kinda got some of that correct. I should probably sue?

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chucker
 
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2021-11-05, 14:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
No matter how you stack it, if we compare the current M1Pro and M1Max performance numbers, the M1E and M1U will be game-changers at the high end of the personal computing industry. Intel will never be able to catch up, and neither will AMD.
It depends.

At single-threaded tasks, Intel's Alder Lake (and even some Rocket Lake chips before it) can beat the M1. Since the M1 Pro and Max use the same cores and at the same clock, they're about as fast as the M1 (while they increase cache and memory bandwidth, the change for single-threaded tasks seems to be very minor). As a result, I expect the M1E and U to do the same.

Last edited by chucker : 2021-11-05 at 14:29.
  quote
kscherer
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2021-11-05, 14:19

Yeah, I agree. At single-threading the M1 family is not the fastest rocket on the pad, but in multi-core the thing is kicking butt, and I suspect Apple's approach to M1E and M1U will be multi-threading to the … umm … extreme?

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PB PM
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2021-11-05, 15:15

I’m guessing you haven’t looked at what Intel and AMD have beyond the consumer grade chips. AMD and Intel already have chips with more cores and threads than any of the M1 units, and have for years. In high level multi CPU board units, Apple isn’t even close.
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kscherer
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2021-11-05, 15:22

We're talking consumer machines, here, not industrial server applications and the like.

The M1 (and all Apple Silicon) are not intended to go toe-to-toe with commercial applications. Just consumer ones.

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PB PM
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2021-11-05, 15:29

The Mac Pro isn’t a consumer machine, it’s a high end desktop platform. AMD has that covered for example with 64 core 128 thread chips, some of those HED platforms, such as Intels do have dual sockets. It’s not even server grade stuff.
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chucker
 
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2021-11-05, 15:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
I’m guessing you haven’t looked at what Intel and AMD have beyond the consumer grade chips. AMD and Intel already have chips with more cores and threads than any of the M1 units, and have for years. In high level multi CPU board units, Apple isn’t even close.
If the 10-core M1 Max scores 12739, and the 64-core Threadripper 3990X scores 25195, you do the math of how a 40-core M1 Ultimate will do.

Apple is, in fact, close.
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kscherer
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2021-11-05, 15:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
If the 10-core M1 Max scores 12739, and the 64-core Threadripper 3990X scores 25195, you do the math of how a 40-core M1 Ultimate will do.

Apple is, in fact, close.
I'll be conservative on the math, and just call it 10-core M1M = 12739, so 40-core M1U = 40,000, which is almost twice as much as 25,195. It may not scale 1/1, which is why I left out the 2,739. That should even things out. But, if it does scale 1/1, then that would be 50,956 which is more than twice as fast.

So, yes, Apple is "close".

I just want to know why AMD and Intel get the performance benefit of the doubt regarding their pipelines, but Apple does not? Because what the rumored performance pipeline hints at is that AMD and Intel aren't even close.

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PB PM
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2021-11-05, 19:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
If the 10-core M1 Max scores 12739, and the 64-core Threadripper 3990X scores 25195, you do the math of how a 40-core M1 Ultimate will do.

Apple is, in fact, close.
Of course, but by the time Apple does that the next gen HED chips will be out, and the 3990X won’t be the benchmark anymore. The current gen ROME chips, from which they will come out score it heavily already. I think Apple is doing great, I’m just saying M1 stuff isn’t the best thing since sliced bread. I also don’t think the AMD and Intel platforms are better or worse, just different. If you need a Mac to get your work done, it does the job more than well enough. It’s the blind fanboy talk that just turns me off.
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chucker
 
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2021-11-07, 09:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Of course, but by the time Apple does that the next gen HED chips will be out, and the 3990X won’t be the benchmark anymore.
Yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
I think Apple is doing great, I’m just saying M1 stuff isn’t the best thing since sliced bread.
It isn't, but your original assertion was "In high level multi CPU board units, Apple isn’t even close.", and if Apple were to simply scale their M1 up further, which it looks like they will next year, they will, in fact, be quite close.
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PB PM
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2021-11-07, 10:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Yeah.
It isn't, but your original assertion was "In high level multi CPU board units, Apple isn’t even close.", and if Apple were to simply scale their M1 up further, which it looks like they will next year, they will, in fact, be quite close.
It’s true, Apple isn’t close, comparing Apples future products to 2-3 year old stuff from competing products, rather than their competitions future products is kind of silly, yes? Of course it will be better than old stuff! Even scaled up to a 40 core chip, it would not compete with the incoming highest end multi-socket systems from competitors. Why? The compition isn’t sitting still, Alder Lake is an example of that. CPU alone a system does not make. Those multi-socket systems also allow for more RAM, GPU power and other expansion Apple simply never offers.

Which is why I said, if you need Max OS it will be more than good enough. Not everyone needs Max OS though, so saying it’s just better than everything else isn’t a good argument.
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