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MacOS 12 Monterey
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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2021-06-09, 11:13

Post your Mac OS 12 tidbits here.

Or not.



It seems that Apple is going to drift away from Intel much sooner than expected. We know that there are processor features in the M1 that do not exist in Intel chips, and Apple appears to be taking advantage of that with Monterey by excluding certain features from Intel systems.

Ok. We knew it was coming, but is it too soon? I'm waiting for the "planned obsolescence" lawsuits to kick in.

"Apple won't support my Macintosh 512 anymore. I'm suing!"

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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-06-09, 11:59

There's always that "hurt" with each transition. I guess some reasonable timeframes would be involved, but who determines that? People with 2019-2020 Intel Macs might grouse, but who knows. May not even be important, super-cool features.

There are no Intel-based Macs in my future (I don't need anything they provide), so it won't affect me, but yeah...people will probably squawk a little, especially if it is a cool, important feature and they have a fairly recent Intel-based Mac.

If they're got a 2009 MacBook Air or something, they can go climb a rope...I don't wanna hear it.

I think Apple is pretty generous on this front. My cheap, no-buying ass is running iOS 14.6 on a five-plus-year-old iPhone SE, and I could be running Catalina if I wanted (can't install Big Sur on this 2013 MacBook Pro, but I'm also not upset about it either). If I had a 2019 MacBook Pro, then yeah. But for someone who tends to keep their stuff 2-4x longer than anyone in my orbit, I'm always able to run the latest iOS and almost the latest macOS.

Not bad at all. I don't expect Apple to "honor"/support my 8-12 year old Macs...that's on me to maybe buy something every 5-6 years. We've all heard the stories/situations on the other side, though.
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chucker
 
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2021-06-09, 13:16

It's fine.

There's some debate over whether those features would've been hard to implement on older Macs, or how artificial the gating is. I don't think that's something Apple does; they probably looked at it, ran into some Intel-specific issues or challenges, and decided not to bother.

This will be the first time since the late 90s (I think) that my Mac will be too old to run the current macOS. But that's not an indictment on the software team, but rather on hardware. The late-2010s' selection of MacBooks Pro was bad.
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PB PM
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2021-06-09, 14:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
If they're got a 2009 MacBook Air or something, they can go climb a rope...I don't wanna hear it.
Nothing older than 2013 machines are even supported by Mac OS11, so that’s not a problem. Look how fast Power PC Macs were fazed out of OS support, it was fast, that should tell anyone buying an Intel Mac that it’s a bad purchase. Once M1 was out it was game over.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2021-06-09, 14:47

On one hand, I get it - there's no point having all these great new capabilities going to waste just because people have older machines. On 4th other hand...I have a 2020 Intel MBP.

(To be fair, it's not technically "mine" - it belongs to work, and I need to be able to run Parallels.)
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-06-10, 09:24

I'm not in a rush to upgrade though I *almost* upgrade my wife's MBP so I could see if Fusion still runs on it or if I'm going to have to buy the next version for support. I'm guessing I'm not going to see Monterey on my main system for some time even though I want some of the features.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
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2021-06-10, 10:27

Speaking of which https://blogs.vmware.com/vsphere/202...hitecture.html

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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-06-10, 11:02



Let the trademark lawsuits begin.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-06-10, 11:18

Happy, happy, happy day!

"Erase all content and settings" is coming to the Mac.

Finally!

Let me tell you, this is so overdue!
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
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2021-06-10, 14:38

It’s always been there, in disk utility… Just run it from the recovery disk, select zero all data, done.

User data could be done by deleting the account.
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kieran
Tweeting @kierankelly
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York City
 
2021-06-10, 14:50

Yes, but this way preserves the Mac OS installation.

Basically like doing a clean install without actually doing a clean install.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-06-10, 14:53

Disk Utility provides the ability to erase the drive. Always been there? Yes, of course. Then, you boot into an installer and reinstall the OS.

User data? Yes, always been there. Delete the account from Users and Groups and away goes the account.

But! The Application layer remains—along with all of its trash, subscription-based apps, App Store (and, thus, Apple ID) purchases, and licensing issues—for the next user.

So, when we prep a Mac to be sold as used we need to erase the user layer and the application layer. The only way to cleanly do this is to wipe the entire machine and reinstall the OS. Or, if a user wants to prep their Mac to donate, hand down, or sell—and they want all of the data gone—they have to go through the same process. It is time consuming to the point of crazy, especially if they have slow internet and need to reinstall the OS.

"Erase all content and settings" on iOS/iPadOS has always made me jealous since it is so blooming easy and doesn't require a fresh OS install. Now, on the Mac, if we want to eliminate everything installed by a user it will be a one-click option that will require nothing more than a password to implement. All users get wiped, all user-installed software gets wiped, and all settings get wiped. Then, upon reboot, it's like the Mac was just purchased and the new owner can set it up however they choose.

Keep in mind that Find My Mac will have to be shut off prior to the wipe, but otherwise this greatly simplifies a restore, sometimes by several hours!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-06-10, 15:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
It’s always been there, in disk utility… Just run it from the recovery disk, select zero all data, done.

User data could be done by deleting the account.
This is probably a streamlined version that:
  • deletes the entire non-system volume (since the system volume is read-only and sealed, there's nothing custom on there no matter what*)
  • *) except with SIP disabled, in which case I presume this feature won't work
  • and then it creates a fresh user partition, hooks it back up to the same volume group, and creates a fresh user account
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
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2021-06-10, 18:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Disk Utility provides the ability to erase the drive. Always been there? Yes, of course. Then, you boot into an installer and reinstall the OS.

User data? Yes, always been there. Delete the account from Users and Groups and away goes the account.

But! The Application layer remains—along with all of its trash, subscription-based apps, App Store (and, thus, Apple ID) purchases, and licensing issues—for the next user.

So, when we prep a Mac to be sold as used we need to erase the user layer and the application layer. The only way to cleanly do this is to wipe the entire machine and reinstall the OS. Or, if a user wants to prep their Mac to donate, hand down, or sell—and they want all of the data gone—they have to go through the same process. It is time consuming to the point of crazy, especially if they have slow internet and need to reinstall the OS.

"Erase all content and settings" on iOS/iPadOS has always made me jealous since it is so blooming easy and doesn't require a fresh OS install. Now, on the Mac, if we want to eliminate everything installed by a user it will be a one-click option that will require nothing more than a password to implement. All users get wiped, all user-installed software gets wiped, and all settings get wiped. Then, upon reboot, it's like the Mac was just purchased and the new owner can set it up however they choose.

Keep in mind that Find My Mac will have to be shut off prior to the wipe, but otherwise this greatly simplifies a restore, sometimes by several hours!
If I traded in a machine there is no way on earth I'd take it in with a still active account, way to easy for someone to attempt data recovery. The last thing I'd want is some third party resellers staff poking through my stuff. Made that mistake once when I was in college, never again. Wouldn't even do that if I traded it in at the Apple store either. Thankfully I didn't store anything really important on there. Now I'd do at least 5-7 passes of zeros over the drive. At least in the old days you could pull the drive and destroy it, now that's not possible.

If I was buying a used Mac I'd want a clean install, regardless of if the user data was removed. I don't see the point of this essentially insecure way of clearing account data, outside of business use, in other words just for changing employees.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-06-10, 18:39

I get where you're coming from. However, there are plenty of people out there that haven't a clue how to get rid of their stuff (this new feature will fix that). FWIW, we've been doing this for a long time and have never had a data breach. We make our living off of our customer's trust. Also, it's a different world now with Apple's use of SSD's. It's not like old hard drives that just nuked the directory but left the data laying around. SSDs work much differently.

First, the data is encrypted. Without the password, you get nothing.

Second, the way that Apple formats SSDs, when the drive is erased everything is gone and cannot be accessed after the fact. In fact, there is no "write zeroes" option in modern Disk Utility with an SSD installed, because there are no one's and zeroes left to snoop through. At all!

Third, with the existence of the T2 chip (and whatever its younger brother in the M1 is called) it is quite difficult to just reset passwords, boot from an external, or any other sleuthing. We deal with this on a regular basis, and it's getting progressively harder to break into a Mac to snoop around, even for legitimate reasons. You forget how to get into your own Mac, and your stuff is gone*!

Bonus, with "Erase all content and settings", the private key is destroyed and you'll get nothing off the drive.

* With proof of purchase, Apple might help you.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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PB PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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2021-06-10, 23:40

Drinking way too much Apple coolaid. Knowing that, no more trading in used Macs, must be destroyed. Kind of waste, but so be it. Rule of thumb, if a human can make it, a human can crack it (T2 etc), and we know the first gen T2 (machines less than 5 years old) has already been cracked. Give them time.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-06-11, 02:21

There’s nothing to crack. You would have to brute force the key, which is impractical with current tech.

Also, zeroing an SSD 7 times? All that does is wear out the chips, if even that; the controller might flat-out ignore that.
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PB PM
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2021-06-11, 09:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
There’s nothing to crack. You would have to brute force the key, which is impractical with current tech.
Nope, the password is stored in the T2 security chip, if they can use the crack they have your password to decrypt the disk. Keep in mind I’m talking about a situation where someone trades in a machine with an active user account, not one that has been deleted. Even if it is deleted do we know for sure that the T2 forgot that password? Do we really trust firmware writers to make perfect code?

As for writing zeros, it’s still a must. Why do you think vendors that sell self encrypting SSDs, which most non entry level drives have, still provide a secure erase function with their software (yes, I know not for Macs because Apple is perfect TM)? Because firmware flaws in the drives controller can provide weaknesses, or even the key for the encryption.

Last edited by PB PM : 2021-06-11 at 09:13.
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chucker
 
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2021-06-11, 09:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Nope, the password is stored in the T2 security chip,
It was. This feature wipes the key.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
if they can use the crack they have your password to decrypt the disk. Keep in mind I’m talking about a situation where someone trades in a machine with an active user account, not one that has been deleted.
Huh? I thought we were talking about a new Monterey feature?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Even if it is deleted do we know for sure that the T2 forgot that password? Do we really trust firmware writers to make perfect code?
No, but by the same token, you can't trust that code that writes zeroes actually writes zeroes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
As for writing zeros, it’s still a must. Why do you think vendors that sell self encrypting SSDs, which most non entry level drives have, still provide a secure erase function with their software (yes, I know not for Macs because Apple is perfect TM)? Because firmware flaws in the drives controller can provide weaknesses, or even the key for the encryption.
Plenty of features exist for snake oil reasons.
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PB PM
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2021-06-11, 14:41

Apple is a pro at snake oil, T2 is just another one. Anyway, I’ll stop dragging this off topic.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-06-12, 20:24

I just installed this on Mrs Turtle's MBP. I haven't gotten to it since telling it to reboot so I have no idea how well it will handle it.

I was working on irrigation all afternoon.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-06-12, 21:18

Does anyone happen to have a copy of the Installer for Beta? I installed it on Mrs T's MBP but forgot to copy the installer so I could make and ISO for VMs and lunch. Now I'm not seeing how I can get this installer without building a Big Sur or older VM and installing the beta profile.

I mean, this is probably what I'll do but just wondering if there is another option I'm not thinking about. I'm not ready to test this OS on my "production" machines.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
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2021-06-14, 05:15

I believe https://mrmacintosh.com/macos-12-mon...ly-from-apple/ has it ("InstallAssistant.pkg").
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
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2021-06-14, 16:01

Thanks. I ended up using a new VM and went that route. Longer but I don't trust OS installs from any third party. At least I have a good copy now to make an ISO for VMs or even a flash drive installer if I want.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
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2021-06-15, 01:53

It’s not a third party; they deep link to Apple.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-06-15, 15:31

Oh, I didn't check the link. I should have though. Thank you for sharing it. It is appreciated and really has be scratching my head as to why Apple makes it so hard to get the ISO/Installer.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
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2021-06-15, 16:22

It is pretty weird. The whole createinstallmedia deal is also odd. That felt like a temporary hack and apparently, they're sticking to it. It feels like a corporate left-hand-right-hand conflict between "we don't really want to expose those internals" and "actually, if we hide them, that makes life hard for IT/support/dev folks".

That said!

On a Mac where you have the beta profile installed, you could try running `softwareupdate --list-full-installers`. This gives me the 11.5 beta and not Monterey, but that might be simply because my Mac is too old to run it.

If it does list 12.0, you could then try `softwareupdate --fetch-full-installer --full-installer-version 12.0`.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-06-22, 21:38

Code:
% softwareupdate --list-full-installers Finding available software Software Update found the following full installers: * Title: macOS 12 Beta, Version: 12.0, Size: 11783915827K, Build: 21A5248p * Title: macOS Big Sur, Version: 11.4, Size: 12395342506K, Build: 20F71 * Title: macOS Big Sur, Version: 11.3.1, Size: 12411305377K, Build: 20E241 * Title: macOS Big Sur, Version: 11.3, Size: 12425084347K, Build: 20E232 * Title: macOS Big Sur, Version: 11.2.3, Size: 12211077798K, Build: 20D91 * Title: macOS Catalina, Version: 10.15.7, Size: 8248985973K, Build: 19H15 * Title: macOS Catalina, Version: 10.15.7, Size: 8248854894K, Build: 19H2 * Title: macOS Catalina, Version: 10.15.6, Size: 8248781171K, Build: 19G2021 * Title: macOS Mojave, Version: 10.14.6, Size: 6038419486K, Build: 18G103
Not sure about the fetch command though, looks like it is trying to install it again:
Code:
% softwareupdate --fetch-full-installer --full-installer-version 12.0 Scanning for 12.0 installer MBDisplay: creating data for display 0x4280F40 (main) with bounds o=[0.000000, 0.000000], s=[1440.000000, 900.000000] Installing: 17.0%
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chucker
 
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2021-06-23, 02:57

Interesting… I'm guessing that's just poor wording.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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2021-06-23, 08:28

I cancelled it right after I grabbed the text. It might just download it and then load the GUI to run the installer like normal but I wasn't going to tie up Mrs T's computer testing last night.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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