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2021 MacBook Pros
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-26, 14:10

I ordered the 14" MBP 10 core M1 Pro 1 TB SSD and trading in my 13" MBP M1.

Debated between that 14" model or the base 16" MBP since it is the same price and only difference is SSD size. The bigger screen size would be nice, but the portability of the 14" won out since I bring it with me to work.

I did in store pick up. I initially was going to pay in full, but I wanted to trade in the MBP in the store vs shipping it to Phobio and dealing with their usual BS. Could only ship it if I wanted the credit applied to the purchase. Someone on MR discovered if they did the 12 month payments on Apple Card, they could choose to do the trade in at the store. So I cancelled the first order and reordered doing the 12 month payment.

giggity
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-10-26, 14:27

New 14" MacBook Pro hot-takes:

The notch is not bad at all. The way Apple uses it takes full advantage of the space.

It feels a bit … clunky. But, that's only because Apple has been chasing "make it thin at all costs" for so long that it's a bit weird them going back the other way.

The screen is amazing.

The ports are … ports?

The black keyboard is very black.

The lid is thicker than any MacBook Pro lid I've seen since … ever? Mini LED backlighting is thick!

The feet are very tall.

It feels very heavy.

When I grip it, the vents feel like they're gonna rip right off.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-26, 14:40

Do you like the all-black keyboard area, or do you think it looks better (and easier to find things) when there was silver or space grey gaps between the black keys?

That’s the only thing, looks/design-wise, I don’t like in these new models, the all black keyboard area. I prefer the individual keys standing out from their background.

A minor thing, I know.

It does look like a little pudge-muffin. But, as you say, it’s only because we’ve been beaten over the head with “as thin as possible!!” for years. This new 14” probably looks perfectly normal.
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-26, 14:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Do you like the all-black keyboard area, or do you think it looks better (and easier to find things) when there was silver or space grey gaps between the black keys?

That’s the only thing, looks/design-wise, I don’t like in these new models, the all black keyboard area. I prefer the individual keys standing out from their background.

A minor thing, I know.
It's partially why I went silver instead of space gray like my 13" MBP M1.

The silver provides a nice contrast to the all black keyboard and I quite like it for me anyway.

giggity
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-26, 14:48

Right, but I’m talking about the areas between the little square keys. Before they popped off a bit on their own because the well they sat in was either silver or space grey. Now that well is black, just like the keys, and each key no longer stands out on its own. I didn’t know if that looks odd in real life, just one large black rectangle and each key now matching/fading into the new black background.

It just looks a bit “eh…” to me in pics.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-10-26, 15:00

It's a dark blob and I'm not sure. I think it's gonna have to grow on me.

Or something.

We don't ever stock the silver MacBook Pro's, so it will be a custom order before I see one.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2021-10-26, 16:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Do you like the all-black keyboard area, or do you think it looks better (and easier to find things) when there was silver or space grey gaps between the black keys?

That’s the only thing, looks/design-wise, I don’t like in these new models, the all black keyboard area. I prefer the individual keys standing out from their background.
They theorized on ATP that it's an all-black blob precisely to avoid individual keys standing out so much, which made the arrow keys look very out of place (which they previously worked around by making the left and right arrows full-height, but not the up and down ones, so, 1) inconsistent, and 2) actually hard to feel around).

Once I heard that, I thought "yup, that's gotta be why". Suddenly, the arrow key layout is no longer visually noticeable.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-26, 16:20

That bothered me less than this. They used dynamite to catch a mouse.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2021-10-26, 16:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
They used dynamite to catch a mouse.
It is the Apple design way.

"We'd rather the mouse (speaking of mice) be very thin and sleek." "Got it. We'll put the charging port on the bottom."
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-10-26, 18:24

So, we did an internal test for our own education. We launched iMovie and used a demo video to test the 14" MacBook Pro's performance against the 13" MacBook Pro.

For comparison:

13" MacBook Pro M1/8/256
14" MacBook Pro M1 Pro/16/512

Exporting a 2.11GB iMovie project to a file using maximum settings on both systems.

We opened Activity Monitor and used the CPU and GPU history windows so we could watch the process. The 14" MacBook Pro was about 4x faster than the 13" and, interestingly, Activity Monitor showed some curious results. The 13" M1 maxed its CPU cores while the GPU bumped, but not maxed. The 14" CPU cores barely blipped, but the GPU went bonkers. It would appear that Apple is maximizing GPU acceleration with the M1 Pro.

Just FYI.

13" MB Pro export settings:
Quote:
13" MB Pro processor history:
Quote:
14" MB Pro export settings:
Quote:
14" MB Pro processor history:
Quote:
The Beasty:
Quote:
From here you can also get a good idea of how Apple uses the notch area to move the menu bar up and out of the way. It looks good and works better. Very clever, IMHO.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)

Last edited by kscherer : 2021-10-26 at 18:41.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-26, 19:11

Gruber's review/write-up on the new 14" MacBook Pro.

This is about the only thing I look for/read from him anymore, but he does do these types of write-ups really well. Always informative, and usually a few tidbits I didn't know about. Been checking DF every 2-3 days since last Monday, figuring he surely had a review unit well before tomorrow.

His first paragraph is the first thing I noticed last Monday once Apple's site got updated:

Quote:
The first thing I noticed is that it’s thicker than the MacBook Pros of the preceding few years. It feels thicker. It looks thicker. But look at the specs. Last year’s 13-inch M1 MacBook Pro: 0.61 inches thick. The new 14-inch MacBook Pro: 0.61 inches thick.
Seeing the new pics and all, I thought "man, it's quite a bit thicker than the 13" M1/Intel model..."

Nope, not even.

It's an illuuuusionnnnn...!



The older ones tapered/thinned toward the edges (the body, anyway) but were .61" at the center. It's uniform across the entire area now, the full .61" to the edges, only looking thicker, with no tapered, sloped perimeters. But not one bit more so, measurement-wise.

Slightly exaggerated for effect (let's be honest, I just wanted to draw something in Affinity Designer)



And I really liked this part of Gruber's writeup:

Quote:
If you’re going to make a laptop thin and lightweight, make it really thin and lightweight. And if you’re going to make a laptop powerful and practical, make it really powerful and practical. Focus on the outer limits of what’s possible, not the boring middle.

That, to me, explains the entirety of this new MacBook Pro. The differences between a MacBook Pro and MacBook Air should not be subtle. Let the truck be a truck, true to its purpose. Let the MacBook Pro be unabashedly pro.
Gosh, almost sounds like somebody I know, who's been saying this exact shit for a few years now.



Yes...let the MacBook Pro earn/warrant its name by prioritizing power/performance over "thin" and vying for design awards. Let the Air be the "thin, stylish and sleek" design showcase, since its customers - and pricepoint - isn't demanding $2,000+ balls-out professional performance. It's "for the rest of us". There should be clear delineation and we've not seen it in quite some time. I hope we're moving more that way, and whatever form/name the redesigned Air takes in 2022 will probably make things even clearer.

It's a good time to be a Mac user. And a great time to be one who prefers their Mac on-the-go!

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-10-26 at 23:14.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2021-10-26, 22:34

Yep. The key flaw in the 2016 Pros is: they were trying to be Airs, when an Air already existed.
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Dave
Ninja Editor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
 
2021-10-26, 22:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
But I've never found it distracting on my iPhone. In fact, I go through entire days of not noticing it at all. It's a bummer that the status bar shows far fewer items (but I find it hardly matters since you can swipe down from Control Center to get them all), and it looks just plain weird when in landscape with the video fully zoomed in (but I rarely do that, since the aspect ratio is so unusual anyway).
The iPhone doesn’t have a menu bar. Nor does Apple let 3rd party utilities put anything along the top of the screen in iOS.

(Also, the notch bothers me even in iOS, both because of the landscape weirdness and I can’t tell what my phone’s battery percentage is at a glance anymore.)

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-26, 23:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Yep. The key flaw in the 2016 Pros is: they were trying to be Airs, when an Air already existed.
Exactly. Nobody was asking for stylish, impossibly thin pro notebook. If they happen to deliver on performance, and look nice, great. Apple isn't going to do anything ugly on purpose, after all. But hobbling/crippling a $1,799+ "pro" notebook to meet goals on Thinness & Sleekness™ is about the most point-missing thing I've ever seen.

Do that shit on the MacBook Air, whose user-base isn't needing raw muscle over all else.

It's encouraging to see that Apple themselves has finally got their head straight on such stuff. I think the future looks very bright for the Mac, and how various models are offered/named/priced. Things should be quite clear come this time next year. We're still in that transition, but give it all another 6-8 months...
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2021-10-26, 23:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
The iPhone doesn’t have a menu bar. Nor does Apple let 3rd party utilities put anything along the top of the screen in iOS.
True.

Right now, my biggest concern is that it might be a bit distracting in light mode (I don’t like dark mode, but I presume it blends in a lot better there). However, I’ve installed a Jack that emulates the notch (yes, really), and for days in a row, it hasn’t bothered me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
(Also, the notch bothers me even in iOS, both because of the landscape weirdness and I can’t tell what my phone’s battery percentage is at a glance anymore.)
Yeah. I just don’t find it a big deal. I can swipe down to see it in Control Center. And when I use landscape, it’s almost always to watch a 16:9 video, so the notch is off to the side.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2021-10-27, 00:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
It's encouraging to see that Apple themselves has finally got their head straight on such stuff. I think the future looks very bright for the Mac, and how various models are offered/named/priced. Things should be quite clear come this time next year. We're still in that transition, but give it all another 6-8 months...
The beginning of that paragraph of Gruber’s hides something important, too: “Apple, famously, doesn’t make a lot of products. They’re the world’s most profitable laptop maker, but they really only make three models: the MacBook Air, a mid-size (13/14-inch) MacBook Pro, and a larger (16-inch) MacBook Pro.”

If you have five laptop lines and two of them are somewhat daring in their choices, fine. But if you really only have two, and both of them come with an experimental keyboard and few ports, that’s a risky and discouraging choice. I can’t imagine the amount of customers who left Apple for good over this is zero. “We would like a Mac, but Apple is offering absolutely zero professional laptops right now.” And that was in the same era where their Mac Pro was dead, and the Mac mini wasn’t getting updated, and… I mean, what poor management!

Do a product line that’s willing to take risks, and call it, I dunno, the “Air” maybe? And then do other product lines that are just normal computers.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-27, 00:38

I think it's all quite simple. They now have a solid handle on the pro notebook thing.

All they really have to do now is decide what they want to do in that $999-1,699(?) "for the rest of us space", and without all the demands/expectations of the $2,000+ pro market, it should be easy. Especially with the M2 coming up, etc.

I think we'll see something as equally compelling in the ~$1,299 non-pro notebook front in the coming months, whatever they wind up calling it, or whatever size(s) it may come in.

Apple just gave all their pro users a big sloppy kiss. They'll probably do so for everyone else soon enough. I'm curious to see what they do, knowing the things they need to address, serve, cater to, etc. But now with the pro models starting at $1,999, they've got a nice big area to play in now.

I love the idea of a 12" and 14" consumer notebook line (playing off the two sizes of the pros, just smaller). Have them in $200 increments, starting at $899 for a 12" (if they can sell a new 13" Air for $999...), then a slightly better one (more storage?) at $1,099 (and maybe those stay on the M1 if that helps get the price down to such an affordable, for Apple, level), and then at $1,299 and $1,499 are your 14" M2-based models, replacing (finally) those two weirdo 13" MacBook Pros.

Lose the wedge, lose the "Air"...two sizes, starting at $899 and topping out at $1,499 or whatever.

Then once you factor in the RAM/SSD/Core BTO options available for each, they'd have that entire $899-$1,899+ space covered. From a stock 12" M1 for $899, up to a maxed-out 16" M1 Pro Max for $6,099...something for everyone, covering a solid range of prices/sizes/specs.

Or they may just stay with a single 13", which is fine too!

Whatever they'd got planned, release it by April or so. Then the rest of 2022 can be all about the desktops. By this time next year, everything is on AS, and with hardware designs less than 18 months old...they will have transitioned both under-the-hood, and the outer designs as well. All forward-looking, next-generation AS-based Macs, heading into 2023 and beyond.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-10-27 at 01:05.
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Dave
Ninja Editor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
 
2021-10-27, 01:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
True.

Right now, my biggest concern is that it might be a bit distracting in light mode (I don’t like dark mode, but I presume it blends in a lot better there). However, I’ve installed a Jack that emulates the notch (yes, really), and for days in a row, it hasn’t bothered me.
Does it emulate the problems of the real thing, too?
https://twitter.com/snazzyq/status/1...111059968?s=21
https://twitter.com/snazzyq/status/1...251339778?s=21

Of course, all these extra bugs and added complexity could’ve be avoided simply by Apple not adding a notch.

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-27, 01:35

That's exactly the kind of thing I was curious about last week...I know there have to be some apps with a lot of menu items (way beyond what Safari, Messages, iTunes or Contacts uses), and how these new Macs would handle that, for things nearing the notch (or wanting to extend beyond, etc.).

I don't think this is the smartest approach they could've taken.

I think it's going to cause a few more questions/headaches than anything it solves or improves. There's something in the way that hasn't been for 30+ years. No way that's glitch/hassle-free.

But it's built into the thing, it isn't software. But it'll have to be addressed/improved on the software front, obviously...ain't anything you can do about it, physically. Maybe macOS Compton next year will have some cool, clever way to fix something that probably shouldn't have happened to start with.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2021-10-27, 03:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
I think it's all quite simple. They now have a solid handle on the pro notebook thing.

All they really have to do now is decide what they want to do in that $999-1,699(?) "for the rest of us space", and without all the demands/expectations of the $2,000+ pro market, it should be easy. Especially with the M2 coming up, etc.

I think we'll see something as equally compelling in the ~$1,299 non-pro notebook front in the coming months, whatever they wind up calling it, or whatever size(s) it may come in.
I hope so. We'll see how they proceed on the Air front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Lose the wedge, lose the "Air"
If that rumor is right, this could indeed be a good moment to remove the confusing "Air" brand. OTOH, it was recently revived for the mid-range iPads, so maybe not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Does it emulate the problems of the real thing, too?
https://twitter.com/snazzyq/status/1...111059968?s=21
https://twitter.com/snazzyq/status/1...251339778?s=21

Of course, all these extra bugs and added complexity could’ve be avoided simply by Apple not adding a notch.
Leaving aside how obnoxiously immature he comes across… no, his key concern cannot be avoided without the notch. What he's really complaining about is something that macOS has done all along (probably since at least 10.1 Puma): if there are more menu items and status items than can fit, it starts removing status items until all menu items of the current app do fit. This isn't a notch-specific behavior at all.

Is that a good behavior? No, not really. But he'd equally run into that on that laptop's immediate predecessor, just about 100 pixels later than he did.

macOS should probably offer some kind of overflow handling. Or, Snazzy could stop hyperventilating and install something like Bartender, if he's actually interested in having that many status items and didn't merely do that for show.

(I don't understand his other point, and maybe he could consider actually enunciating it. Does he want the mouse to always hide underneath the notch? Or to never do it?)
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-27, 08:54

I know it’s 2021 and things change/progress. But I bet that notch violates every HIG there ever was and, even just 5-10 years ago, wouldn’t have ever been on the table. Somebody actively pushed/campaigned for that, and probably ruffled more than a few feathers in the process. There’s no way everyone inside Apple was cool with this.

There’s something in the way now, period. Whether it directly affects every user, every day, isn’t the point. The fact that it could - and that things behave weird and differently when it does - just introduces the potential for unnecessary WTFery into a scenario where it never needed to be. That third-party apps/utilities may have to be employed to help with it is no kind of solution or anything to tout.

The top bezel, could’ve been a smidge thicker to accommodate the camera/sensors and nobody would’ve cared. It still would’ve been smaller than the previous models, plus still super small on the sides. Then none of this is even an issue or seeding one ounce of concern/confusion.

As I said last week, it wasn’t a “have to” thing at all. They’re not trying to get the biggest display in the smallest area, as with an iPhone. This is a “want to” thing, and I bet it shows up on every redesigned Mac-with-a-display in the coming year.

And should they return to selling their own first-party displays again, guess what?



EDIT: I actually take back the last part of this post, about all Macs/displays. Because I think they would've done so with the M1 24" iMac if that was their plan (these notebooks were surely in the planning/design stages in overlapping timeframes with the 24" iMac in 2020-2021). I do think it's coming on the new, redesigned Air (or whatever it gets called). I believe their reasoning, like the iPhone, will be "largest screen in the smallest area we can", which means "small as possible bezels and, as a result (like it or not), intruding into the working display area with a camera notch.

Although the bezel on the 24" iMac is smaller than than on the 21.5" and 27" aluminum Intel models, it's still large enough, obviously, to hold everything. And a stationary desktop doesn't have those size concerns, so I'm betting the iMac (and whatever larger size may come in 2022) keep the camera/sensors on the bezel. And, should they make their own displays again, that would probably be based on the iMac design. So, upon further thinking, I believe the notch is their way of getting 14" and 16" (and whatever size(s) a redesigned Air/for-the-rest-of-us) notebooks into the smallest frames possible, with the "barely there" bezel look.

The notch may prove to just be a portable thing, as the reasons for doing so don't really apply to the desktop. Yes, a small, narrow bezel is nice, but it has no real-world impact/benefit on an iMac...who cares about an extra half-inch or so on a machine made to sit in one place? But on a notebook they probably feel driven to shave/account for every bit of space. And they obviously think the smallest bezel possible, with a notch in the display, is how to go about this.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-10-27 at 10:07.
  quote
Dave
Ninja Editor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
 
2021-10-27, 09:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Leaving aside how obnoxiously immature he comes across… no, his key concern cannot be avoided without the notch. What he's really complaining about is something that macOS has done all along (probably since at least 10.1 Puma): if there are more menu items and status items than can fit, it starts removing status items until all menu items of the current app do fit. This isn't a notch-specific behavior at all.

Is that a good behavior? No, not really. But he'd equally run into that on that laptop's immediate predecessor, just about 100 pixels later than he did.

macOS should probably offer some kind of overflow handling. Or, Snazzy could stop hyperventilating and install something like Bartender, if he's actually interested in having that many status items and didn't merely do that for show.

(I don't understand his other point, and maybe he could consider actually enunciating it. Does he want the mouse to always hide underneath the notch? Or to never do it?)
I believe he was making three points. Or at least I took three things away from the videos:
1) There’s bug(s) WRT letting things “live” under the notch.
2) There’s more bug(s) WRT the lack of behavioral consistency of the cursor.
3) The notch exacerbates the problem of menus and menubar items colliding.

The common denominator here is… the notch.

Regardless of the notch, WRT #3, I agree that Apple should probably provide a better mechanism for handling that. Dunno if they should buy out bartender or do something else, but we are in complete agreement that they should do something.

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-27, 10:15

The important thing to remember is that none of this was an issue/discussion until last Monday.

So, yeah...the notch is the culprit/"villain" here, causing all this stuff. They created an issue/concern/questions/"huh?" where none existed before.

Whatever your feelings (good, bad or neutral) on the notch itself, there's no denying/debating the simple fact above.

If I spent $1,999+ on the latest and greatest, and my menus and all were acting silly and things not working, predictably and reliably, as they have for years and years, I'd probably be a little immature about it too.

"Hey, this goofy kind of shit shouldn't be part of the experience at $2,799...it certainly wasn't prior to last Monday".

If this were a Sony or HP notebook and these weird interface stumbles were part of it, due to a new cutout in the middle of the working display, those of us in the Apple camp would be mocking/crucifying them without mercy. But we twist ourselves into little pretzels to convince ourselves, and others, that it's the ideal, best solution.

And I'm saying "well, maybe another measly 1/4" or so of top bezel" probably was.

I don't think anyone would've had a problem with something like this, less than 3/8" added to top bezel to house the camera, etc. Everyone would've been thrilled with the left and right side being so thin, and even the top is no thicker than it was before...fixes everything, complicates/messes up nothing; there's a reason why the camera was in the bezel for a thousand years (original on left, tweaked on right):


Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-10-27 at 11:09.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2021-10-27, 11:07

Is there a system-wide "Bezel / Notch" preference? Could there be? Seems like the simplest solution. Default it to Notch, grumpy old men can pick Bezel.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-27, 11:17

Yeah, but what does the notch actually do/provide, real-world? What tangible, "OMG, it should've been this way for a decade...Apple NAILED it!!!" benefit or plus is there? It's not hollow, "grumpy old men" grousing. It introduces more "huh?"/potential snags than anything it solves, or any benefits it provides.

Things shouldn't be there unless they cause you to go "well, of course...absolutely, this is the better way! It addresses everything that used to suck, and improves on this, this and that! This is how it should've been for years."

I'm not seeing that. At best, a questionable design decision. At worst, a solution in search of a problem (and creating its own batch in the process).

Someone with some clout/pull made the call and everything else had to go along. "Oh, shit...really, Tim? This is what we're gonna do? You can't be cool with a quarter-inch extra bezel up top? You gotta be all matchy-matchy?"

If it did/provided something real, I'd be the first to champion it. I love clever, outside-the-box thinking/approaches that actually fix/solve/address something in a better, smarter way. But a 1/4" or so tall sliver of horizontal working space is all it really shakes out to, from all I can see. And that's only if you're in a particular mode. Where does that come in handy? If you're doing some serious retouching work on a drinking straw, maybe? Or you like to watch movies in 29:3 ratio?

There's no overwhelming benefit, other than allowing for bezel smallness/matching on three sides. And I just don't know if that's enough reason/justification. Six months from now, it may all be a moot point and it never crops up and is a total non-issue. That would be wonderful. But...what if it goes the other way? What if, 3-6 months from now, everyone's having trouble with their Adobe, Cinema 4D, AutoCad menus? The very crowd this model was made for? They're not gonna be quiet or cool with it, for the money they spent (and that they make their living doing this stuff).

It could get a little ugly.

I can see it going away eventually, now that Apple seems okay with correcting themselves on things that cause problems for users. It could very well prove to the be the butterfly keyboard of 2021 (hopefully they'd move a little quicker on this one, if they realized it was needed). You never know. They're just now getting into the hands of people. We'll have a solid idea by year's end if this is just an atomic-level c.f. of an implementation. Could depend on the user and the software they use most, etc. But stuff like that shouldn't be left up to chance or "let's just do this and then hope for the best". That's not Apple-y.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-10-27 at 11:57.
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chucker
 
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2021-10-27, 11:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
I believe he was making three points. Or at least I took three things away from the videos:
1) There’s bug(s) WRT letting things “live” under the notch.
Yup, looks that way. Only really relevant for scenarios where there isn't a good solution anyway. If Apple were to fix those bugs, they'd do so by, instead of partially rendering the status items affected, not rendering them at all. I fail to see how that's a big improvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
2) There’s more bug(s) WRT the lack of behavioral consistency of the cursor.
Yeah, but also, who cares? Like, really, that's the kind of discussion we're having now? There's like a hundred bigger fish to fry than "sometimes, the cursor jumps, and sometimes, it disappears, and in both cases, it really doesn't matter because the place you're trying to go does not exist". (For example, macOS now seems completely unable to remember the desktop background I've picked. I have three displays. I want all three to show the same. Almost without fail, one of them will suddenly show the wrong image.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
3) The notch exacerbates the problem of menus and menubar items colliding.
That's definitely true. Is that what he's really criticizing? That there's not enough space? Does he want a second row? Does he want an option to move the entire menu bar below, so he gets a full row? Because to me, it just sounds like all he wants is to complain. There's no constructive feedback and a lot of immaturity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Regardless of the notch, WRT #3, I agree that Apple should probably provide a better mechanism for handling that. Dunno if they should buy out bartender or do something else, but we are in complete agreement that they should do something.
Sure.
  quote
chucker
 
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2021-10-27, 11:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
Is there a system-wide "Bezel / Notch" preference? Could there be? Seems like the simplest solution. Default it to Notch, grumpy old men can pick Bezel.
There is not, and there could be. If there's enough backlash, 12.1 or 12.2 or whatever will simply make that an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Yeah, but what does the notch actually do/provide, real-world?
Additional screen estate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Again, it would never keep me from buying one. But it just seems like the non-ideal, unnecessary and unasked-for decision. Someone with some clout/pull made the call and everything else had to go along.
But this is really no different than, say, the iPhone having a camera bump. Personally, I wish the camera bump were at least more symmetric so it doesn't wobble towards one particular corner. But even that is just not a big deal in everyday use.

Is the notch a compromise? Of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
If it did/provided something, I'd be the first to champion it. But a 1/4" or so tall sliver of horizontal working space? Where does that come in handy? If you're doing some serious Photoshop work a drinking straw, maybe?
For years, people complained that the bezels on the MBP are too fat. Now, they're about as thin as they could possibly be, and people don't like that either.

Can't please everyone.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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2021-10-27, 11:27

Funny. Apple finally shells out the pro laptop everyone has been screaming for *AND* finds a way to offer up an additional 1/4" of screen space, and all we do is find something to whine about. We were going to find something — anything! — to pick at. There is just no way for Apple to win.

You wanted more ports? Apple gave them to you.

You wanted the old keyboard back? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted a thicker laptop with a bigger battery? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted a better screen? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted the fastest processor in the industry? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted a smoking hot GPU? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted it to run cool? Apple gave it to you.

You didn't want it to throttle? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted MagSafe back? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted a better camera? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted a smaller bezel? Apple gave it to you.

Wait! There's a NOTCH?

"Apple doesn't listen to pro's! Apple hates us and doesn't care about us anymore! Apple sucks! Where's my cake, I'm hungry!"



If Apple had shrunk that bezel on both sides, but didn't do it up top to make room for the camera, *EVERYONE* would be screaming that they had lost their design-minds and "If only Jony Ive had been here!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
There is not, and there could be. If there's enough backlash, 12.1 or 12.2 or whatever will simply make that an option.
This ^

And then the people that use it will whine that their's is smaller than mine, because mine gets all the ladies.

I can't wait for the lawsuits. "Apple says … but then I can't even use all of my screen because notch! It's false advertising. Where's my money?

These things are smoking fast, incredibly powerful laptops with the best portable performance in the industry (and amongst the best including desktops), get great battery life unmatched by Intel/AMD anything, are incredibly light considering what they can do, have screens that are out if this world, and offer up all the connectivity the modern "pro" needs/wants-because-reasons, and still we whine!

I've got a couple of gripes about how the computer feels when I hold it — and a huge gripe about the cost of that USB-C to MagSafe 3 cable ($49 ) but design/performance-wise these things are sharp!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)

Last edited by kscherer : 2021-10-27 at 11:43.
  quote
Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-27, 11:33

Could be worse.......

Could be on MR right now after Apple already confirmed SDR is still 500 nits max last Tuesday, now that a review confirms indeed SDR is 500 nits, people are outraged.

giggity
  quote
chucker
 
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2021-10-27, 11:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
Could be worse.......

Could be on MR right now after Apple already confirmed SDR is still 500 nits max last Tuesday, now that a review confirms indeed SDR is 500 nits, people are outraged.
The 500 nits thing actually does disappoint me more than the notch. (I guess you could argue the same goes for the SD slot being UHS III, or the HDMI port not being 2.1.)

The display is so forward-looking in so many ways (very high res, ~10,000 dimming zones, small bezel, …) that being good for outdoor use would've been a cherry on top that I would've loved. Alas, not yet.
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