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2021 MacBook Pros
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-27, 11:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
The 500 nits thing actually does disappoint me more than the notch. (I guess you could argue the same goes for the SD slot being UHS III, or the HDMI port not being 2.1.)

The display is so forward-looking in so many ways (very high res, ~10,000 dimming zones, small bezel, …) that being good for outdoor use would've been a cherry on top that I would've loved. Alas, not yet.
I don't mind the disappointment in SDR being limited to 500 nits.

It's the outrage over Apple "lying and deceiving us" after a reviewer stated it even after Apple confirmed SDR was limited to 500 nits last week a day after the event. That is what is agitating me.

It's one thing to be disappointed in something once the full specs are known instead of just going off the marketing material. But the faux outrage is something else.....

giggity
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chucker
 
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2021-10-27, 11:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
I don't mind the disappointment in SDR being limited to 500 nits.

It's the outrage over Apple lying and deceiving us after a reviewer stated it after Apple confirmed SDR was limited to 500 nits last week a day after the event.

It's one thing to be disappointed in something, it's another to get frothed up and outraged over when a reviewer confirms what Apple already stated.
Well, to be fair, Apple's specs are rather confusing about this. If you compare the M1 13-inch and the M1 Pro/Max 14-inch and 16-inch, you get:

500 nits brightness

vs.:

Up to 1000 nits sustained (full-screen) brightness, 1600 nits peak brightness

The "up to" is doing a lot of work here. I think they also cited a figure like that at the event.

But! Apparently, in very bright environments, the 2021 models will in fact go well beyond the 500 nits you can achieve by manually setting the highest brightness setting.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-27, 12:06

I'm not downplaying/pooh-poohing any of the (amazing) changes/improvements. It's not a "oh, you don't like the notch so you don't appreciate any of the other stuff" thing at all.

Don't be so eager to make your point(s) that you have to try and make it sound like I'm not recognizing how great this new model is, chuckleheads.

But if you think this is the best implementation (in something that isn't handheld/pocketable, where fractions of inches/millimeters truly count) or it's something that couldn't negatively impact usability or how menus respond, then nothing I say is going to matter.

Maybe the perfect middle-ground is a future macOS update to where they figure some of those things out. That would be fine too, done well (but it may fundamentally change/tweak how things have worked for decades, so that'll be something people would have to be okay with too). Did they not anticipate any of this, and have it cooked into Monterey from the get-go? Or having that in the betas would've given away the hardware feature before they were ready? I can understand that, and maybe there's something underway, software/OS-wise, as we speak?

I love the smaller bezels. Were they needed on all three sizes? Nah, not at all. It would've looked just as nice with skinny sides, and a still-skinny top with all the camera/sensor stuff up there and an unbroken display/work area, where none of this has to get defended/debated.

Those of you okay with the notch...you're a little too okay with it.

It isn't an either/or thing. It could've been a perfect, zero-compromise machine that nobody had anything to squawk about if not for this dumb-butt approach.

And how much more "working space" are we truly talking about? Does that really add up/matter, real world? A vertical sliver, spread across the width of the display? Another visible GarageBand track, maybe? Another 1-2 lines of text at Daring Fireball? We're not talking anything huge or "this truly makes a difference".

You guys...
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chucker
 
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2021-10-27, 12:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
it's something that couldn't negatively impact usability or how menus respond,
Definitely. Just not that much.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-27, 12:35

Probably depends on the program. I know some of that high-end creative software can have a lot of menu headings that, even on those higher-resolution displays, could reach all the way across the bar and hit that notch area.

That was the very first thing I wondered about last Monday after the presentation ended..."but what happens if you have one of those crazy applications with a boatload of menu headings? Where do they go when they reach the notch? Do they side-scroll? Do they pop out on the other side? Do you have to do a right-click thing to see the rest of them? Do they drop down below the standard menu, so you've got drop-downs of drop-downs? Do things actually 'hide' behind the notch and you have to do some key-combo to nudge them over so you can see them? But what if...", and so on.

I already had my questions/concerns, nine solid days ago.

I've yet to see, hear or read anything that's made me go "ah, gotcha...makes total sense, and actually is a better approach (vs. just making the top bezel a bit taller to hold the camera)!"

But I'm open, and if I'm proven wrong on all this I'm big enough to cop to it say so. No ego here.

Just not prepared to do so on day two...

I'm not "anti-notch". I'm anti-stuff-not-being-the-ideal-approach-when-other-proven-things-are.

Way more space to work with on 14" and 16" notebook display, vs. 5-6" iPhone display (which is why nobody here has ever heard me utter one word against the iPhone notch, in over four years). It has never bothered me, and it makes sense there, to be luggable/pocketable with a small-as-possible body. It's a whole different thing to solve/accommodate.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-10-27 at 12:57.
  quote
Dave
Ninja Editor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
 
2021-10-27, 13:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Funny. Apple finally shells out the pro laptop everyone has been screaming for *AND* finds a way to offer up an additional 1/4" of screen space, and all we do is find something to whine about. We were going to find something — anything! — to pick at. There is just no way for Apple to win.

You wanted more ports? Apple gave them to you.

You wanted the old keyboard back? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted a thicker laptop with a bigger battery? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted a better screen? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted the fastest processor in the industry? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted a smoking hot GPU? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted it to run cool? Apple gave it to you.

You didn't want it to throttle? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted MagSafe back? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted a better camera? Apple gave it to you.

You wanted a smaller bezel? Apple gave it to you.

Wait! There's a NOTCH?

"Apple doesn't listen to pro's! Apple hates us and doesn't care about us anymore! Apple sucks! Where's my cake, I'm hungry!"



If Apple had shrunk that bezel on both sides, but didn't do it up top to make room for the camera, *EVERYONE* would be screaming that they had lost their design-minds and "If only Jony Ive had been here!"
Oh, I agree that everything except the notch is fantastic. I could quibble about HDMI 2 vs 2.1, but I don’t really care… AFAICT, it only really matters if you want 4K at 120Hz, and I can’t think of when I’d want that and not be at home with access to a TB dock. I still wish there was an ethernet port, but these days you need a dongle for that even with most of the nicer PC laptops and I’ve mostly given up on that particular fight (even though I’m right ). On the whole, though, these are astonishingly good laptops. Apple clearly did listen to what the Pros wanted.

Is the notch the end of world? I doubt it. Is it the biggest mistake Apple’s ever made? Again, no (that would be “embracing filename extensions when they switched to Mac OS X”, IMHO). But it does show a serious disregard for the sort of attention to detail WRT the UI & HIGs that made Mac OS so great in the first place. And, unlike the lack of ports, this can’t be fixed with a dongle.

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-10-27, 13:41

It can be "fixed" with a software toggle.

Honestly, I hope Apple does offer a toggle. Said toggle will just make the top 1/4" of screen unusable. That will be just fine.

And then folks can get to whining about the feet.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-27, 13:51

Something kinda interesting I’ve noticed when watching some of these unboxings and reviews.

In the past, the photography/renders at Apple’s site always looked better than real life.

On these new MacBooks, the real life videos and customer pics look nicer than what’s on Apple’s site. They don’t look as clunky, somehow. And that all-black keyboard area is growing on me. It’s all just photographing/filming better in real life than the stuff at Apple.com. The shadows, edges/bevels, etc. show up and look nice. The keys, even against that black well, do seem to stand out more than it initially looked like.

Has the Space Grey been tweaked a bit? I can’t tell if it’s just the photos/lighting. It looks different but I can’t quite put my finger on it.

Probably not. I guess that’s a pretty dialed-in color at this point.

The feet look nice. Probably makes for better air flow/circulation, lifting it off the desk a little more. You never see them while using it anyway. That, to me, is a complete, invisible non-issue (the very definition of the word), unlike that other thing.
  quote
Dave
Ninja Editor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
 
2021-10-27, 14:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
It can be "fixed" with a software toggle.

Honestly, I hope Apple does offer a toggle. Said toggle will just make the top 1/4" of screen unusable. That will be just fine.

And then folks can get to whining about the feet.
Nah the feet are great… more air flow is more better, even if they don’t get that hot.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-10-27, 15:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Is it the biggest mistake Apple’s ever made? Again, no (that would be “embracing filename extensions when they switched to Mac OS X”, IMHO).
Definitely up there. I’d put “we went from being able to literally make a bootable OS by dragging the system folder on another disk to needing all kinds of tools” up there. macOS used to be nice and simple and obvious.
  quote
Dave
Ninja Editor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
 
2021-10-27, 17:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
It can be "fixed" with a software toggle.

Honestly, I hope Apple does offer a toggle. Said toggle will just make the top 1/4" of screen unusable. That will be just fine.

And then folks can get to whining about the feet.
Apple giving us toggle until they sort out what they want to do WRT “overflowing” menus & menu bar items would mostly satisfy my concerns.

I say “mostly” because I’m still kinda wondering how it shipped before the software was ready. And I really hope it’s not the start of a trend where Apple ends up putting notches for webcams in their desktop monitors, too (if they ever start making affordable ones again).

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-10-28, 05:16

That's not new, and the article is misleading. The final paragraph is key:

Quote:
Apple notes that developers can update their app to work better with the notch, in which case the "scale to fit below built-in camera" setting no longer appears.
This is not a "I don't like the notch" setting. It's "this app seems to be incompatible with the notch for now".
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-28, 05:25



Worms, meet can.
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chucker
 
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2021-10-28, 05:29

(I'm also not sure why it scales to fit, rather than shifting the menu bar down. The way I read it, it literally proportionally scales down, meaning you also get bezels to the sides. I can't think of any good reason other than to scream "this is not intended behavior" from the rooftops.)
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Mac+
9" monochrome
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 🇦🇺
 
2021-10-28, 06:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
I love it.

Seriously love it.

My machine is SEVEN years old this month.

This machine seems like the natural successor to this MacBook Pro.

It has a similar range of ports.

Some of my dongles will need replacing or further donglization (ethernet, firewire, etc).

But dang.

Aside from the excruciating migration of data, this may feel like crossing over to the same machine.

I am very excited.

Good job, Apple.

There is indeed life after Jony Ives.



...
I’ve been mulling over this all week, but I think I’m with you Drew.

I was hoping for a Mac mini Pro… but since that hasn’t arrived, I’m changing my tune to the MBP.

I’m currently using a 2013 MacBook Air 13”, 1.3GHz i5 8GB/128GB.

It’s time for an upgrade. I just didn’t expect I’d go for a portable again.

Probably max it out too.

All I want is a simple life
twitter
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Mac+
9" monochrome
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 🇦🇺
 
2021-10-28, 06:04

Also, I still have my TiPB.

First thing I thought when I saw the new models was the return to this form factor. I like it.

I’m thinking of trying to refurb the TiPB - similar to the way people restore cars. I wonder if it’s possible/worth doing. Thoughts anyone?

All I want is a simple life
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-10-28, 06:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
I love it.

Seriously love it.

My machine is SEVEN years old this month.

This machine seems like the natural successor to this MacBook Pro.
Indeed. I have a late-2013 (bought in early 2014), so it's technically about eight years old, even. I skipped largely because the general design ethos of the 2016 era just seemed misguided. Looks like they fixed that.

Pricey, but otherwise pretty great!
  quote
Dave
Ninja Editor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
 
2021-10-28, 11:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac+ View Post
Also, I still have my TiPB.

First thing I thought when I saw the new models was the return to this form factor. I like it.

I’m thinking of trying to refurb the TiPB - similar to the way people restore cars. I wonder if it’s possible/worth doing. Thoughts anyone?
“Possible”? Of course! You might need to build a reproduction of the factory and tooling to do it, but it is possible.
“Worth doing”? Depends on what needs to be done. If you’ve got cracked/broken parts, I think you’ve probably missed your window, but I’m hardly an expert on the matter. Maybe looks on eBay for parts computers? If it’s just the finish, I think your chances are better? Not sure what all that involves.
Does the TiBook have an IDE or SATA HD? I’m pretty sure that someone made an IDE SSD at one point, but those might be too old by now.

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-28, 11:39

These new MacBook Pros are great. I'd buy one in a heartbeat if I needed that performance, definitely. It's the notebook everyone has been wanting for five-plus years, and one that truly lives up to its name. The $200 bump didn't even bum me out because the size increase, improved camera, reinstated ports - not to mention all that new power/performance - seems to justify it. A person, whatever their occupation/profession is, knows if this machine is for them...and they'll cough up the $$$ as needed.

It's as perfect and dialed-in a Mac as anything they've put out in the past decade or so, in terms of giving customers what they wanted and living up to its name.

Worth the wait.

I look forward to seeing what comes of that pending updated/redesigned Air(?) in 2022...I think some features will be carried over (screen size, keyboard, improved camera, etc.). And if they lose the tapered wedge, as several rumors have talked about, then there's your extra room for a fan and/or more battery. It needn't be as thick as the Pro, so I can see it being a slimmer, slightly lighter 14" MacBook Pro, with the off-white accents and possible colors (at least 1-2, maybe the ones that are selling the best on the 24" iMac?*) that immediately sets it apart, visually (and none of the high-end features in the Pro, of course). A perfect successor to the M1-based $999 Air/$1,299 MacBook Pro, I'm thinking.



*Recall that even during the full-tilt iFruit era, where the jellybean iMac had 5-6 colors (if you include graphite), the iBook never had as many options, spending much of its time as Blueberry or Tangerine early on, and then eventually Graphite, Indigo and Key Lime. It never got strawberry, grape, Snow, Ruby, the patterns, etc.). So a 2022 Air successor may be offered in just sliver, blue and ??? And if you roll the Key Lime factor into the equation, then the updated Air could even get a unique color, just for it, that never appeared on the iMac. 2022 is going to be fun.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-10-28 at 11:56.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-10-28, 11:52

I just tested the "Scale to fit" option and it does as advertised. It "scales to fit". So, you basically get a 13" MacBook Pro screen.

I think it's a temporary fix, but it is a fix. For those of you who need it, it works.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2021-10-29, 19:06

I just ordered a 14" MBP with the M1 Pro chip and 2TB SSD. $2599, ships early December.
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Mac+
9" monochrome
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 🇦🇺
 
2021-10-29, 19:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
“Possible”? Of course! You might need to build a reproduction of the factory and tooling to do it, but it is possible.
“Worth doing”? Depends on what needs to be done. If you’ve got cracked/broken parts, I think you’ve probably missed your window, but I’m hardly an expert on the matter. Maybe looks on eBay for parts computers? If it’s just the finish, I think your chances are better? Not sure what all that involves.
Does the TiBook have an IDE or SATA HD? I’m pretty sure that someone made an IDE SSD at one point, but those might be too old by now.
“Possible”? Good answer!

Re: what I was thinking. I haven’t turned it on in ages so am not sure whether it even works. I know it is without a battery though. I was thinking more cosmetically. To me, it’s an iconic design and I’m a sentimental old fool. That said, maybe its worth hunting around for the last iteration… I think they launched a 1GHz model before they switched to aluminium.

No G5 of course. Remember those days?

All I want is a simple life
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-29, 19:51

We waited for a G5 PowerBook for about 320 years, I think.

Those crazy rumors were all about, etc. I remember those rumors that never quite went away (or panned out).

Looking back, it's just as well one never came: 35-minute battery life (if that) and the bottom of it probably hit 700°F.

People would replace their Coleman camping stoves with one..."well, it ain't shit for Photoshop, but it can fry some eggs and bacon like nobody's business!"

It all managed to shake out in the end. They delivered the goods last Monday.
  quote
drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-10-30, 08:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Actually, it does. It comes with a USB-C-to-Magsafe cable.
Seriously hate to circle back around to this, but I just read this on AppleInsider and am confused:

Quote:

For the 16-inch model, users can recharge using either MagSafe 3 or Thunderbolt 4, but the 140W fast charging capability of the new charger won't get hit unless the MagSafe port and Apple's charger are used together.


The new 140W charger is being sold as a separate purchase to the MacBook Pros, at $99. That price excludes the $49 USB-C to MagSafe cable.

So I would still need to purchase the charger, right?





...
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2021-10-30, 09:43

It's confusing because it's a confusing sentence...

The 16-inch MBP comes with a 140W charger and USB-C to MagSafe cable. The 14-inch MBP comes with a 67W or 96W charger and USB-C to MagSafe cable. Maybe the dude you quoted was thinking about a purchase because the 140W adapter is compatible with a lot of other devices?

[edit]: From the article above: "... Apple also confirmed that any of the new MacBooks’ Thunderbolt 4 ports can be used to charge the laptops. On the 14-inch MacBook Pro, these ports can be used for fast charging; but fast charging the 16-inch MacBook Pro requires using MagSafe 3 and the 140W adapter because the Thunderbolt 4 predates the USB-C PD 3.1 standard and tops out at 100W." I think that's what your quoter was trying to say.

So it goes.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-30, 09:48

For the fast-charging capability, I believe.

Yeah, the whole charging situation on these new notebooks is a little goofy/confusing. Is this the first time Apple’s made a parlor game/upsell opportunity out of it all?

I know different lines of notebooks (iBook vs. PowerBook, Macbook vs. Macbbok Pro, the Air, the 12” MacBook, etc.) all came with different wattage chargers for that particular model. But haven’t the Macbook Pro models always come with the same charger? I’ve certainly never been as confused or unsure about what comes with what, and which model does/needs what. They went and got cute with it all for some reason.

Every written review and YouTube unboxing/review I’ve taken in this week hasn’t made it any clearer.

Does it seem needlessly complex/confusing this go-around or am I just imagining things? I know for a fact I’ve never been unsure about Macbook Pro charging before, so I know it’s not me.
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chucker
 
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2021-10-30, 12:48

The way you can get a $20 more expensive charger option on the 14-inch is a strange upsell.

The 140W thing isn’t. It’s just poor timing. USB-PD currently goes up to 100W; a bigger standard is in the works but not finished. So, this was their best option: you can still charge via USB, but slowly. Or you can use MagSafe.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-10-30, 13:02

It would never even occur to me to not use what the thing came with, which is all I've ever done my entire life. I didn't know all this other stuff was a thing until I started with the reviews (written and video) this past week.

Just use what came in the box (the model is obviously designed/meant to work with it just fine), and tell Apple to kiss it with their attempts to squeeze another batch of cash from you on an already-expensive product.
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drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-10-30, 13:39

So 16 inch buyers are set?


...
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