[Dr. Bobsky]

Unions at big box retailers or online distributors just might. The idea being that this will force the companies to pay just compensation and fair working conditions for their employees. The price differential will get passed to customers, nullifying some amount of the advantages they have price-wise.

There's a reason city centres crumbled when unions started to die...

[Brad]

Originally Posted by kscherer And no union is going to fix that.

No single local union, sure, but more union adoption across the board? Since you mentioned Amazon, consider that a fair portion of their price advantage comes from abusing its workers. If Amazon had decent union representation for its massive warehouse and distribution and delivery staffs — many of which have absurd working conditions and no benefits like health care — then not only would those people have a more livable wage, but also the general commerce playing field would become more fair since the money to pay a proper wage has to come from somewhere (I assume exec comps aren't likely to budge).

edit: I didn't see bobsky's post on the new page. Basically that.

[PB PM]

Amazon is a company that nobody really wants to work for, but does because they need work. A union would be helpful, but they need to fight for company wide, no just one warehouse at a time like they are now.

Amazon is quickly becoming a last resort shopping place for me now,.

[drewprops]

I believe that this story in Inc. Magazine is relevant to this discussion.

https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/dol...ial-media.html

...

[turtle]

Originally Posted by drewprops I believe that this story in Inc. Magazine is relevant to this discussion. https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/dol...ial-media.html ...

You know, I was in retail as a department manager for a number of years. I hated so much about the job that I can't even begin to communicate them all to you. From the rude, obnoxious and entitled customers to the penny pinching bean counters at corporate. The treatment is simple, produce lots of profit or leave the company. Things as "trivial" as the temperature of the building are controlled by corporate. At the store I worked at, 78 DegF was considered perfect in the summer. It felt cool when you came in to shop from being outside but was cheaper to maintain.

Even as you move to upper management (still a grunt just paid "a little more" with MORE responsibility) you are still always on the chopping block compared to the higher producing staff. In all of the horrible treatment I never once thought I should unionize so I could get a better working environment. In fact, I never though it would be a permanent job. It was always a stepping stone to something better. I've never thought of retail (hospitality or merchandise) as a full on career. The revolving employment of lower level employees makes the concept of a union generally laughable. In the early 2000's when I worked retail, as a manager, I was getting ~$13 an hour. There is no way any of that was going to a union "tax" knowing it was a temporary job anyway.

Based on the conversations I had with other employees, especially subordinates, that was the general mindset. Even at the assistant manager spot leaving was always in the back of their mind. Most were way more entrenched by the time they became a store manager though.

[Quagmire]

The stepping stone mindset is the worst mindset to have. Not saying one should make retail manager their career goal, but just because it is a stepping stone, doesn't mean it has to suck.

It is what led to new airline first officers to being paid $20,000 a year pre-tax. It was just a stepping stone to get to a place like United, Delta, American, etc so why bother fighting for more. Making less than the person flipping burgers at McDonalds, but with far more responsibility, time and money invested to get your ratings, etc. All because that regional airline job is just temporary and meant to be used to spring you to the better gigs. Until it doesn't due to 9/11, Age 65, 2008, etc causing you to be stuck as an FO at that regional airline because there was no movement since no one was hiring.

I know you're going to shoot back turtle, that is a unionized shop and they didn't help. But it's hard to fight for something when your members don't care to fight for it. They are not unified behind fighting for better pay and conditions because their mindset is get in and get out, don't try to improve things while they are there. Regional airline unions are all weak due to that. Add to it the airline is likely their first exposure of a union and thus don't understand how a union functions especially with the decline of unions over the past few decades, it's hard to strengthen them. Member apathy is among the biggest problems. At my former regional airline, only about 20% of eligible members voted on anything. That's pathetic and management sees that. It weakens any position the union has.

[turtle]

To be realistic though, not all job will be "nice" jobs. Many suck and that is where there is high turnover and generally unskilled workers employed in those positions. Sure it sucks, but the reality is some jobs just do suck. That is why gas stations in my area are offering $20 and hour full time! That seems to be huge compared to what I was getting as a "manager" in retail. No one wants to work a gas station (even nice ones like QT/Wawa/etc... because it sucks as a job. Really though, it is just retail and in the end most don't grow up dreaming of working retails.

Going back to Starbucks and Apple Store unionizing, I'm still scratching my head on that one. Now that I think more about it, my mindset and personal experience in retail helps shape my views on this.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by turtle To be realistic though, not all job will be "nice" jobs. Many suck and that is where there is high turnover and generally unskilled workers employed in those positions. Sure it sucks, but the reality is some jobs just do suck. That is why gas stations in my area are offering $20 and hour full time! That seems to be huge compared to what I was getting as a "manager" in retail. No one wants to work a gas station (even nice ones like QT/Wawa/etc... because it sucks as a job. Really though, it is just retail and in the end most don't grow up dreaming of working retails. Going back to Starbucks and Apple Store unionizing, I'm still scratching my head on that one. Now that I think more about it, my mindset and personal experience in retail helps shape my views on this.

Sure not all jobs will be "nice" jobs. They will inherently suck because that is the nature of the beast such as retail. Still doesn't mean the work environment has to be horrible for what management has control over. Let's take that thermostat has to be set to 78 degrees in the summer. Then corporate states the work uniform has to be jeans and a light sweater because that is the corporate image they want employees to show off. Certainly nothing unsafe per se, but probably uncomfortable. Corporate shouldn't bean count with the thermostat and expect employees to wear clothing that will be uncomfortable for stated setting. The employees shouldn't be told to suck it up or quit if they have an issue with that. That shouldn't be acceptable treatment of employees by management .

[PB PM]

Any public company is run by shareholders at the end of the day, and they pick bean counters to maximize their returns. They care nothing for employees (at any level) or customers.

[psmith2.0]

This thread improves instantly if we can discuss what is the value of an onion.

Now that, I've got some opinions/thoughts on.

[drewprops]

Take it to the recipe thread, Ringo

I see that the Amazon Labor Union failed to get enough votes to organize, from the workers in question.

That's actually surprising, considering that New York is a "closed shop" state (versus "right to work" (RTW) states like those in the south).

Unions can still be very effective in right to work states because there is (and always will be) a race to the bottom, without established pay minimums.

A percentage of project-by-project union workers in RTW states join unions grudgingly, against their own political ideals. They bite the bullet in order to get hired on big projects. Some come to understand the benefit of membership, over time. They may not be enthusiastic about it, but it is a useful tool.

In time, with experience and reputation, they will be able to ask more than the scale rate in the collective bargaining agreement.

In the meantime, the wage stability provided by the CBA assures a stable framework that allows for a professional workforce to develop.

One man shows, like my anti-union electrician cousin, are left with the smaller jobs. They charge less, and have a different class of clientele. They are happy to operate independently, and may be excellent at their work, but they are in eternal competition with their fellows and must be prepared to accept less in order to continue receiving an income.

Some of these independent operators are true entrepreneurs, and can excel in the market.

However, some workers lack business acumen. They rely on the stability that union contracts provide.


...

[Brad]

Originally Posted by turtle That is why gas stations in my area are offering $20 and hour full time! That seems to be huge compared to what I was getting as a "manager" in retail.

Since inflation is a recurring subject in this thread, let's not forget to take that into account here...

Originally Posted by turtle In the early 2000's when I worked retail, as a manager, I was getting ~$13 an hour.

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics' CPI inflation calculator, $13/hour in 2000 is worth about $22/hour today. The gas stations in your area are likely paying less in real value terms than what you earned as a retail manager. Since some folks argue that the CPI has actually been under-reporting inflation in recent years, claiming that it doesn't sufficiently account for rapidly ballooning housing and healthcare costs, it's probably even worse for anyone living on that kind of pay.

[turtle]

You know, one day I should look up right to work and closed shop. I've pretty much always lived in the south (though outside the DC beltway is hardly "the south") and yet I have never been aware of how one way over the other could effect me. I guess I've just never crossed a path where it was a good of bad thing for me, at least not and know it.

BTW, Drew, you keep making reference to political views in previous responses so it has me wondering, why conservatives tend to lean away from union where liberals tend to embrace them.

Please believe me when I'm asking these questions that I really don't know. I'm not playing ignorant/naive, I really am and it is why I'm asking.

[turtle]

Originally Posted by Brad According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics' CPI inflation calculator, $13/hour in 2000 is worth about $22/hour today. The gas stations in your area are likely paying less in real value terms than what you earned as a retail manager. Since some folks argue that the CPI has actually been under-reporting inflation in recent years, claiming that it doesn't sufficiently account for rapidly ballooning housing and healthcare costs, it's probably even worse for anyone living on that kind of pay.

This makes sense. Man, I should see what a department manager pay is now in the store I used to work at. I mean, they close the retail location I was employed at, but the company is still operating.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by turtle You know, one day I should look up right to work and closed shop. I've pretty much always lived in the south (though outside the DC beltway is hardly "the south") and yet I have never been aware of how one way over the other could effect me.

The key difference I see in most discussions about these is usually in the terms of continued employment.

In a "right to work" state, employers can fire you for any* or no reason at all with no advance notice. If a union exists as an option, you may choose to join one and should be protected by its rules, but membership is not compulsory.

"Closed shop" means you are required to join and maintain membership of the union for that particular employment if it exists, and the employer has to abide to union rules which may forbid termination without just cause.


* "Wrongful termination" technically exists in "right to work" states, protecting against retaliation and some forms of discrimination, but good luck enforcing that or fighting in court if you don't have something like a union to back you up.

[turtle]

Thank you. That is why I've always been confused by it and just kinda ignored it. "Right to work" seems like a misnomer. I'm sure there is something back 200 years ago where it fit but not it seems like it is a better description for closed shop based on what you wrote.

I've always had the mindset I had to work hard and prove my worth to keep my job. As opposed to the federal employees I was around while active duty in the Navy. Of course, while active duty there was no specific concern about losing my job, just my rank and pay.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by turtle BTW, Drew, you keep making reference to political views in previous responses so it has me wondering, why conservatives tend to lean away from union where liberals tend to embrace them.

I think the connection is pretty easy to follow:

Conservatism (in the US at least) = strong support of Laissez-faire free market, individualism, privatization, and deregulation = Unions are bad because they try to counter some of those core principles.

[PB PM]

I always assumed conservatives saw unions as being an evil communist type thing. Then again some of the most conservative (economically and politically) people I know work in union environments and think they are wonderful.