[chucker]

via kottke.org:

Remaindered link posted February 12, 2007 at 02:45 pm Is California going to split from the United States? CA governor Arnold Schwarzenegger recently stated: "We have the economic strength, we have the population and the technological force of a nation-state." Juan Enriquez extensively covers the potential fracture of the US in his book, The Untied States of America (@ Amazon).

NY Times artcile on the matter.

“We are the modern equivalent of the ancient city-states of Athens and Sparta,” he recently declared. “We have the economic strength, we have the population and the technological force of a nation-state.”

This seems to be mostly a case of reading too much into Schwarzenegger's statements, but could there be some truth to it? Does CA have sufficient only resources, and has CA been drifting noticeably enough into its own direction, that it makes sense?

[jdcfsu]

Isn't California in billions of debt? Wasn't that why Schwarzenegger elected in the first place?

This will never happen.

[torifile]

People refer to California as the "People's Republic of California" but I don't think the US gov't would be willing to let its most populous state secede. It didn't sit well the last time states tried, if you'll remember.

[rasmits]

Originally Posted by jdcfsu Isn't California in billions of debt? Wasn't that why Schwarzenegger elected in the first place? This will never happen.

Yeah, but isn't the United States in trillions of debt?

AND isn't California also physically splitting from the US at the fault line?

[jdcfsu]

Originally Posted by rasmits Yeah, but isn't the United States in trillions of debt? AND isn't California also physically splitting from the US at the fault line?

Yeah, but we're (mostly) in debt to ourselves. IIRC California went bankrupt though. But yeah, you're right, they are an earthquake away.

[Barto]

Originally Posted by torifile People refer to California as the "People's Republic of California" but I don't think the US gov't would be willing to let its most populous state secede. It didn't sit well the last time states tried, if you'll remember.

Bingo. Even if Californians wanted to split, I don't see the rest of the USA or the US government being ok with that.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by jdcfsu Isn't California in billions of debt? Wasn't that why Schwarzenegger elected in the first place? This will never happen.

I don't think debt plays any role. I also don't believe it'll happen, but not for financial reasons.

[Wrao]

I love California

[naren]

I think one of the primary points of the NYT article at least was in regards to political devolution of power and the efficiencies therein. I tend to agree, we are a very large nation to still be claiming democracy. Think of it as a streamlining or regionalizing of federalism, to manage regional economies and resources. I wonder what the breakdown would look like. It would surely be interesting.

[Barto]

That would be going back to the original idea of the United States and the original intent of the founding fathers.

The breakdown politically would look like the antebellum USA - hopefully without what followed.

[hiltond]

If you break down what CA puts into the system and what it gets back this might make sense (for them, Washington would flip).

There are a few regions of the US that could operated as nations at a cost savings and more accurately address the needs of their citizens but that would take away power from a lot of people with money and influence who won't be happy to see it go. Just saying.

[Dovek916]

California should split, I personally can't see why we want to be with the rest of these wackos out east anyways. California was the fifth largest economy in the world, now it is like the sixth or eighth, I forget, but California could viably become its own country. It would have two states, nor-cal, and so-cal, so-cal can have fresno!

[Ebby]

We have oranges, cheese, movies, Happy Cows™, advanced technology, and beach babes. What does the rest of the US have to offer us?

Hey Californians... next big quake, everyone lean west!

"Lets go hang with Hawaii. Alaska can come too."

[Partial]

Originally Posted by rasmits Yeah, but isn't the United States in trillions of debt? AND isn't California also physically splitting from the US at the fault line?

Everyone is in debt to one another. The only time a deficit would matter is if other countries decided to collect on it, and in which case the UN would step in and tell them to stop being such a bitch.

[AWR]

The UN? Tens, where do you get this stuff?

I think the chances of California splitting from the US are exactly Zero. If it does though, I want in. My sister has been a California resident since 1982, which I hope would allow me to qualify for a passport.

[Banana]

FWIW, the talk about California splitting isn't really news. I've heard about it since I was younger, and I do imagine they weren't really thinking things through.

Consider water for starters. I am told that the southern California is so heavily dependent on water they have aqueduct that effectively reroute and suck up all water from Colorado river among with other major cities in Southwest.

One condition for statehood is that they be independent and self sufficient. If they need to get water from somewhere else with so much of artificial engineering, it's kind hard to claim that they can split from rest of US, IMO.

[Ebby]

Sorry dude. Even that is all ours. (AKA: We're taking it with us when we leave. )

[Wrao]

As much as the Nation needs us and we don't necessarily need the Nation, California will never split. That being said, one reason that hasn't been brought up yet for why Cali would want to peace out is the fact that, the rest of the Nation pretty much hates our state and our people. Since living in Massachusetts and Washington, and traveling to dozens other states, I have been consistently accosted for being Californian. People learn that I'm Californian and they immediately have something negative to say, about my state, about my governor, about what I'm probably like...etc.

So, when the time comes, California is going to thumb their noses at the lot of you haters and book it.

[hiltond]

Originally Posted by Wrao As much as the Nation needs us and we don't necessarily need the Nation, California will never split. That being said, one reason that hasn't been brought up yet for why Cali would want to peace out is the fact that, the rest of the Nation pretty much hates our state and our people. Since living in Massachusetts and Washington, and traveling to dozens other states, I have been consistently accosted for being Californian. People learn that I'm Californian and they immediately have something negative to say, about my state, about my governor, about what I'm probably like...etc. So, when the time comes, California is going to thumb their noses at the lot of you haters and book it.

Try being from Jersey

Seriously I didn't know that many held those types of views.

[AWR]

I've seen plenty of idiots refer to California as Kalifornia or Commiefornia. It amazes me that people so dense have been able to stay alive long enough to laeRn too tyPE.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by AWR I've seen plenty of idiots refer to California as Kalifornia or Commiefornia. It amazes me that people so dense have been able to stay alive long enough to laeRn too tyPE.

They're not all idiots. When I went to school out there, even some of my liberal* college professors referred to it as "The Land of the Fruits & Nuts," and "The People's Republic of Berkeley."

*by liberal, I mean to the left of Karl Marx

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by AWR I've seen plenty of idiots refer to California as Kalifornia or Commiefornia. It amazes me that people so dense have been able to stay alive long enough to laeRn too tyPE.

Additionally, we are regarded as "the fakest people ever", "lazy bums", "lazy stupid bums", "lazy stupid communist bums you can't trust because they are so fake"...etc.

Surprisingly, the topic of Californian secession comes up fairly frequently when people are bad-mouthing us. "Good riddance", "we won't miss you"...etc.

It's got to be the biggest case of State envy I've ever seen.

[AWR]

Originally Posted by Dave They're not all idiots. When I went to school out there, even some of my liberal* college professors referred to it as "The Land of the Fruits & Nuts," and "The People's Republic of Berkeley." *by liberal, I mean to the left of Karl Marx

I stand corrected. I should have said most.

And as far as Berkeley being representative of the rest of California... That's as far-fetched as saying Albania is representative of Europe.

[chucker]

Just a random aside:

Originally Posted by Dave They're not all idiots. When I went to school out there, even some of my liberal* college professors referred to it as "The Land of the Fruits & Nuts," and "The People's Republic of Berkeley." *by liberal, I mean to the left of Karl Marx

First, Marx would be probably highly offended by being associated with liberals, and second, you can't really get any more left than Marx.

[joveblue]

Originally Posted by chucker First, Marx would be probably highly offended by being associated with liberals, and second, you can't really get any more left than Marx.

Where do Anarchists fit in? My Politics teacher never quite made that clear. Or are they just classified as insane? I went to school with this girl who was in the paper recently throwing a rubbish bin at a Police truck at the World Trade Organisation protests which was mainly perpetrated by anarchists - like what is that supposed to acheive??? Anarchists are so stupid it makes my head spin

[AWR]

I find the topic very interesting; it also works wonders if you are having troubles falling asleep. Funny that.

The anarchists played an interesting role in the Spanish Civil War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain

[chucker]

Originally Posted by joveblue Where do Anarchists fit in? My Politics teacher never quite made that clear. Or are they just classified as insane? I went to school with this girl who was in the paper recently throwing a rubbish bin at a Police truck at the World Trade Organisation protests which was mainly perpetrated by anarchists - like what is that supposed to acheive??? Anarchists are so stupid it makes my head spin

Utopist communism is arguably a form of anarchism, yes. However, it is based on a long period of societal development into a certain direction (socialism), so the people are actually used to certain rules and, per the theory, don't actually need a government to create or enforce any such laws.

Not that it's actually remotely realistic, but it's far more clearly-defined than mere anarchism.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by rasmits AND isn't California also physically splitting from the US at the fault line?

Says the person in...Seattle.

Since you live on the same boundary between the Pacific/JdF and North American Plates, if California was going to break away from the rest of the continent, so would Washington. Lucky enough for you the North American west-coast is not breaking away. The entire coast is in fact scraping up the Pacific's crust and increasing in land-mass.

The geography is moving however. Everything west of the "strike-slip" San Andreas fault (ex: Los Angeles) is sliding north. Everything east like most of San Francisco is sliding south.

[Dorian Gray]

Originally Posted by joveblue Anarchists are so stupid it makes my head spin

Well, chucking stuff at the police isn't anarchism as understood by political philosophers. Anarchism is based on the premise that all authority is illegitimate, or if not, you must show what is wrong with the following argument:

1. to be autonomous is to decide for yourself
2. authority decides for you, thus:
3. authority is incompatible with autonomy
4. people ought to be autonomous, thus:
5. people ought to reject the claims of authority

This is Robert Paul Wolff's challenge. Of course Wolff doesn't even attempt to argue against those who deny point 4 above, but that is hardly fatal because a belief in personal autonomy is what defines liberalism (to which all serious schools of political thought adhere). The only question about 4 is whether authority ought to have a role in promoting autonomy for all. Anarchists don't actually claim there are no reasons for following the law: for example, one might stop at a red light because not doing so could cause an accident or attract the attention of a policeman.

There are of course good arguments against anarchism. For example, Joseph Raz argues that one still retains a sense of individual decision making under authority because one still has the choice of whether to obey the authority or not (unless coercion is involved). Raz also has a more elaborate argument against point 2 which I can't remember at the moment. (Disclaimer: Timothy Macklem is my jurisprudence tutor, and Macklem was one of Raz's tutees, so I'm a great fan of Raz's philosophy! At some point in the future I may become more objective.)

To keep this a little more closely on topic:

Originally Posted by Banana One condition for statehood is that they be independent and self sufficient. If they need to get water from somewhere else with so much of artificial engineering, it's kind hard to claim that they can split from rest of US, IMO.

Surely that's not very important though, is it? Japan has very little in the way of fossil fuels and metals, yet they not only manage very well economically, they even have a large manufacturing sector. It would be true if statehood required self-sufficiency, but in these days of globalisation that's less important than ever.

[Moogs]

Go Nuts, California. Split, secede... whatever you want. But once you leave and things down the toilet.... you can't come back. I say we let California go and Adopt British Columbia in its place, if they want to join the party that is.