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turtle
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2020-11-10, 15:31

New MacBook Air with the M1 chip. Interestingly, they didn't go into color options during the keynote. They also didn't talk about the different M1 options that apparently exist:

GPU goes from 7 to 8 cores with the step up.

Other than that it is build to order for RAM and storage:

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chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 15:39

A few thoughts:

7-core and 8-core GPU options on the Air sounds… a lot like the A12X and A12Z? Probably a coincidence, though.

My prediction that they'd keep some Intel models around was correct; both the 13-inch Pro and mini can still be bought with x86. Makes sense.

The Mac mini no longer has a 10 GigE option (it's still there if you pick the Intel model). I guess they're repositioning it again? It also starts a little lower again at $699.

I'm increasingly annoyed by these presentations. They need a new editor for them. Craig was pretty good, Laura(?) and John were OK, Johny just felt… insulting. If you're not gonna show actual numbers, why keep showing those unlabeled charts? We get it, they're faster and more power-efficient, but that entire presentation could've boiled down to those two bullet points. I don't understand whom that segment was for. It was too nerdy for almost anyone watching, but also devoid of information for those interested.
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turtle
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2020-11-10, 15:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
...
We get it, they're faster and more power-efficient, but that entire presentation could've boiled down to those two bullet points. I don't understand whom that segment was for. It was too nerdy for almost anyone watching, but also devoid of information for those interested.
So right on point here! I felt like I was going to get gritty details and left feeling like I had a book with blank pages.
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chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 15:43

I did enjoy the clip featuring third parties. Only segment so far, halfway in, where I'm somewhat entertained.

That globe symbol on the fn key also seems new; iPad-derived?
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kscherer
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2020-11-10, 16:07

FYI: The options in the image at top appear to be in error. The $1249 price for the 512 is off, considering you can pick the $999 model, upgrade the storage to 512, and wind up at $1199. There are no differences in the M1 (at least none published—and Apple would have noted it, and it would be evident in the other machine options.)

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turtle
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2020-11-10, 16:10

..but ..but there is a difference. Notice the GPU options. $50 extra for one more GPU core according to their site.

I like the Vet/Military pricing better personally:

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
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kscherer
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2020-11-10, 16:32

Ohhhhhhh … interesting.

Thank you for that.

I wonder, are those a slightly different design, or are those the chips with a failed GPU core that has been switched off?
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turtle
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2020-11-10, 16:55

I have to think they cripple the chip and it is made from the same die.
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Brave Ulysses
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2020-11-10, 17:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
I have to think they cripple the chip and it is made from the same die.
This is entirely about economies of scale. Bean counters over tailored solutions for different tiers of products. They now have three major products all using the same SoC. They could have made a modification for the MacBook Pro to accommodate more RAM but they didn’t. Apple is all about economies of scale.
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PB PM
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2020-11-10, 17:52

Notice how no clock speeds are listed? Guess because there is only one speed, so there is no point.
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kscherer
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2020-11-10, 18:07

Apple has never publicly announced clock speeds for their custom chips. People think that clock speed is king, but it isn't. What die size is used? It matters. How fast is the RAM? That matters, too. How fast is the storage? That also matters. It's an out-of-date "horsepower" argument. My brother's 18-wheeler has way more horsepower than my pickup, but my pickup is a LOT faster than his truck. My "X" has more power than your "Y" is not a valid argument, and it never has been. Back in the day, 800MHz PowerPC G4's were running circles around 3GHZ Pentium 4's.

Why do we care about clock speed?

Apple builds a system, and clock speed is irrelevant. Sure, clock speed comparisons are important if you believe that clock speed is the only important metric. Otherwise, I don't care.

And it will be fun and challenging with those customers for whom clock speed is the only thing that matters.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)

Last edited by kscherer : 2020-11-10 at 18:17.
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chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 18:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
They could have made a modification for the MacBook Pro to accommodate more RAM but they didn’t.
I don't know that they could've. The M1 is a SoC with integrated RAM. Putting 16 GB in it really pushes things.

For a model with more RAM, you probably want discrete RAM, which requires a different architecture the M1 apparently can't handle at all.
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pscates2.0
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2020-11-10, 19:16

I know we don't have reviews, teardowns, benchmarks, etc., but for those of you who know about such things, how does this new Air, on paper/what we saw today, shake out against, say, an early 2013 13" MacBook Pro (Retina) with 2.6GHz Core i5, 8GB RAM and Intel HD Graphics 4000?

Just the age along, seven-plus years, says a lot, right?

I'm happy with the performance of this loaner (that seems to have become a full-timer).

I don't have anything to compare to...cores and this and that don't register with me.

Would could possibly be the real-world difference between a 7-core GPU and the 8-core? If it were 4-core vs. 8-core, that's a little more clear-cut. But 7 to 8...
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PB PM
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2020-11-10, 20:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Apple has never publicly announced clock speeds for their custom chips. People think that clock speed is king, but it isn't... balablabala
Anyone who follows computers as much as we do knows that, and that isn't why I brought it up. The question is, does that mean there is only CPU model for all the (M1) equipped units, or is it that they don't want to show that there are different clock speeds between sub-models models? One of them clearly is, since it has a weaker GPU. That does leave us to wonder if there are not speed differences between models as well. Guess we'll have to wait for testing to know for sure.
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PB PM
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2020-11-10, 20:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I know we don't have reviews, teardowns, benchmarks, etc., but for those of you who know about such things, how does this new Air, on paper/what we saw today, shake out against, say, an early 2013 13" MacBook Pro (Retina) with 2.6GHz Core i5, 8GB RAM and Intel HD Graphics 4000?

Just the age along, seven-plus years, says a lot, right?

I'm happy with the performance of this loaner (that seems to have become a full-timer).

I don't have anything to compare to...cores and this and that don't register with me.

Would could possibly be the real-world difference between a 7-core GPU and the 8-core? If it were 4-core vs. 8-core, that's a little more clear-cut. But 7 to 8...
In terms of speed the new M1 chips should be a very noticeable upgrade over anything Apple was shipping in 2013. As for the GPU, who knows, those core count numbers mean very little compared to other iGPs in the notebook market. In terms of the raw performance numbers, it's good for a IGP for 2020. It's what you get if you buy a Mac now, so it is what it is. It will an improvement over any IGP Intel has shipped in the last 8-10 years, no doubt about it. Core count? In terms of GPU's generally more is better, since they are parallel compute units at the end of the day.
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kscherer
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2020-11-11, 11:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Anyone who follows computers as much as we do knows that, and that isn't why I brought it up. The question is, does that mean there is only CPU model for all the (M1) equipped units, or is it that they don't want to show that there are different clock speeds between sub-models models? One of them clearly is, since it has a weaker GPU. That does leave us to wonder if there are not speed differences between models as well. Guess we'll have to wait for testing to know for sure.
For comparison's sake, I'm not sure Apple is going to release anything at all. They haven't on the iPad lineup, other than having an "X" model with more cores. Not sure how they are going to differentiate this going forward.

I would like to see something, but I don't think clock speed is going to be the answer, here. Or, perhaps they just want to figure it out for ourselves (i.e. Geekbench, etc.)?

When the 16" Pro drops, I'm sure there will be an M1x to talk about. It will have more cores of all types.

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kscherer
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2020-11-12, 11:43

Has anyone ever seen one of those home run hitters take a whack at the ball so hard that the ball explodes and the stuffing flies out?

Um

Multi-core:
16" MacBook Pro 8-core i9: 6870
13" MacBook Air 8-core M1: 7433

Single-core:
27" iMac 10-core i9: 1252
13" MacBook Air: 1687

Yes, I know about sustained performance because of fans and blahblahblah. However, this accomplishment is just truly incredible. Those are not small improvements. They are flat-out kick the crap out of the competition-level improvements.

The 13" MacBook Air (for this moment) is now the fastest computer Apple has ever made! In a few minutes it will be either the Mac Mini or the entry-level 13" MacBook Pro.

That is nuts!

Yeah, Apple's not gonna be able to compete! "They can't just walk in here and make a phone."

I have been saying it since the conversation started: Apple is not to be underestimated! Their silicon team is by far the best in the industry, and they are simply outclassing every other attempt on any platform. It will be only a matter of a few years before Apple is making the fastest computers money can buy, short of actual, you know, supercomputers.

And if anyone was caught flat-footed they should be fired, because the writing has been on the iPad wall for at least 5 years.

And if anyone cares, the macBook Air is clocking at 3.2GHz.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)

Last edited by kscherer : 2020-11-12 at 12:05.
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chucker
 
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2020-11-12, 14:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
And if anyone cares, the macBook Air is clocking at 3.2GHz.
Well, FWIW, numbers like clock rate on unreleased computers are often guessed by Geekbench. (At least on iOS, where Geekbench can't ask the OS.)

The clock speed difference (3.2 GHz vs. 3 GHz on the A14) does fit the score difference of around 6%, but, again, that could just be exactly what Geekbench is estimating.
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chucker
 
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2020-11-12, 14:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I know we don't have reviews, teardowns, benchmarks, etc., but for those of you who know about such things, how does this new Air, on paper/what we saw today, shake out against, say, an early 2013 13" MacBook Pro (Retina) with 2.6GHz Core i5, 8GB RAM and Intel HD Graphics 4000?
Well, if you take the 2020 13-inch Pro and compare it against the 2013, it's a very clear win. About thrice as fast at single-core tasks, and on top of that, you're going from two cores to 4+4.

The Air is a bit trickier. It lacks a fan, so for sustained loads, it'll eventually throttle and/or get rather hot. So it may be a bit more annoying to handle when doing long stuff like encoding video.
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kscherer
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2020-11-19, 18:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Ohhhhhhh … interesting.

Thank you for that.

I wonder, are those a slightly different design, or are those the chips with a failed GPU core that has been switched off?
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
I have to think they cripple the chip and it is made from the same die.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
This is entirely about economies of scale. Bean counters over tailored solutions for different tiers of products. They now have three major products all using the same SoC. They could have made a modification for the MacBook Pro to accommodate more RAM but they didn’t. Apple is all about economies of scale.
This from iFixit:

Quote:
It packs eight CPU cores (four optimized for performance, and four more for efficiency), and an integrated GPU with either 7 cores or 8, depending on which config you order. (Both use the same M1 chip off the exact same production line, but Apple sorts them in a process known as “binning” where slightly lower-quality silicon results in one GPU core being disabled.)
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turtle
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2020-11-20, 08:55

Well, I guess that is one way to throw less out at the end of a run!

Also from iFixit, this made me laugh:

Quote:
Like Craig Federighi before us, today we’re opening up the new M1 MacBooks and seeing the light. Except… we opened them from the other side. Oops.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
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kscherer
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2021-05-18, 12:14

Some MacBook Air news as well.

I'm not sure about "high-end" versions of these computers. I think the rumors are confused by the next version of the Mx chip (likely the M2). It is likely that Apple will get itself onto an annual release cycle and we will see regular releases, which the rumor mill is just not prepared to deal with and thinks these new chips are for "high-end" models, when in fact they are just the next version of the chip, which is definitely more "high end" than the previous version.

In other words, I'm not buying it.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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Last edited by kscherer : 2021-05-18 at 13:29.
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pscates2.0
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2021-05-18, 13:06

I read your post three times and I still can't figure out what the hell you're saying. I usually only do that with drew.






I kid because I love.

In all seriousness, this kinda goes with what I've been squawking about for a while now...that $1,299 13" MacBook Pro has never really been one, not compared to the $1,799+ 13" (and 16") models. I said, ages ago, that the MacBook Air is the default "notebook for the rest of us", and I can see it simply becoming "MacBook" (Air means next-to-nothing now), and covering the ground between the $999 and ~$1,499 space.

The MacBook (Air) should've always been allowed to move upward, vs. crippling or offering a "less than" 13" MacBook Pro which never seems to hang with its more expensive cousin of the same size (processor, speed, graphics, ports) anyway.

They only need two MacBook lines...MacBook and MacBook Pro. The former can be thin, wedge-shaped, fanless(?), 13", come in colors, sport the lower-tier M-whatever processor at the time and suit the needs for most everyone out there, with various RAM, SSD and processor(?) options. Those who need the power/performance/ports can, as always, lay out $1,700 or more for the true "pro" model, with no compromises or confusing positioning/prices. It'll have the beefier M-whatever chips, larger screens, better graphics, more ports (if those HDMI/USB/SD slot rumors are legit), and legitimately live up to its name (and pricing).

If you're a "pro", and you're needing "pro" performance, then you buy a MacBook Pro, for the price the current Intel-based ones are starting at ($1,799, give or take). Everyone else? You're a MacBook customer. Configure a colorful (or silver), wedge-shaped laptop accordingly in that $1,000-1,500 space, and get on with your life. If your ego/opinions of your peers demands that you have "pro" in the name of your notebook, then mow a few yards or put in some overtime and spring for a (true) MacBook Pro, not just something in name only.

For the first time in years they could straighten out the confusing mess than is the notebook lineup, with all its overlap, crippled models, names that don't mean anything (everything in their lineup is "Air" - light and thin - at this point, and there isn't much "pro" about that $1,299 13" compared to the $1,799+ models), etc.

I hope they do.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2021-05-18 at 13:55.
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kscherer
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2021-05-18, 13:30

Oh, well. Confusion is better than protrusion.

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pscates2.0
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2021-05-18, 14:17

I think the M1 (and whatever the later versions of the "basic" processor get called) will power the Mac mini, the MacBook (Air) and 24" iMac. That's a nice three-tier product lineup that serves the needs of most users out there: a headless sub-$1,000 desktop, sleek notebook and a stylish, colorful 24" AIO.

The newer, higher-end variant (and its future versions) would go into the MacBook Pro, the Mac Pro tower and possibly even a larger 30"(?) iMac (with or without Pro in its name, although it would probably make sense to bring the name back to clearly mark it for what it is).

At that point, you'd have two distinct product lineups, "regular" and "pro", three models each (notebook, headless desktop and AIO). The lower category would be powered by the "regular" M-whatever (currently the M1) and then a "pro" category of three models powered by the higher-end chip and occupying the $1,800+ spectrum.

Everything is clearly labeled/priced accordingly. You're either a "pro" or you're not. You've got three distinct computer types within each category, once you figure that other part out ("am I a pro, and require pro-level performance?").
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kscherer
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2021-05-18, 15:09

I agree accept on one point: The Mac Pro will not get the M1x or whatever it's called. I'm convinced it will get something way beyond that, likely from the 2nd generation chipset. In other words, it will get the "M2x Pro". The M1 will be for consumer-level things (like you said, Mini, Air, iMac), and the M1x will be for the MB Pro, the iMac Pro, and (maybe) the Mac Mini Pro. The Mac Pro tower, however, will get its own thing: The M2x Pro.

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pscates2.0
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2021-05-18, 15:41

Based on…? What makes it so special? Does anyone buy them in numbers to warrant? I don’t know, I’m asking.

That’s the one Mac segment I never really follow or keep tabs on because it’s just something I know I’ll never need or use.

Do you guys sell a lot? Is there a big pent up demand? What’s the $600 wheel market like?
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chucker
 
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2021-05-18, 16:41

It depends on how they position it.

Does the Mac Pro only exist because of internal expansion? Then they can give it the M1X and argue that it's not only plenty fast, but also internally expandable. I would personally appreciate the symmetry that would finally bring to the line-up: the Mac Pro is the non-laptop version of the MacBook Pro.

But right now, it very much isn't that. The Mac Pro isn't just internally expandable, but also fantastic if you do heavily multithreaded work (which almost nobody does), and it can do that by virtue of having giant chips and a giant cooling system.

Does Apple want to do the 2019 Mac Pro as a one-off and go back to more of a Mac midi, like the 2013 Mac Pro? I… don't see that going over well.
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kscherer
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2021-05-18, 17:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Based on…? What makes it so special? Does anyone buy them in numbers to warrant? I don’t know, I’m asking.

That’s the one Mac segment I never really follow or keep tabs on because it’s just something I know I’ll never need or use.

Do you guys sell a lot? Is there a big pent up demand? What’s the $600 wheel market like?
We sell very few Mac Pro's, but only because the price has reached stratospheric numbers. Back when Mac Pro's could be had for $2500 we sold lots of them, to the tune of 1/week (which is a lot for such high-end systems). Now? We've sold 3 of the 2019 models.

It's a $$ thing.

But, if Apple can produce their own high-end chips, I suspect they can get the price back down sub $3000. Then, they will start selling again. And they need a <$1500 display to go with it.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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chucker
 
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2021-05-18, 17:57

If Apple wanted to make a Mac Pro like that, they could totally have done so with an Intel CPU.
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