User Name
Password
AppleNova Forums » General Discussion »

Steve Jobs blasts teachers unions...


Register Members List Calendar Search FAQ Posting Guidelines
Steve Jobs blasts teachers unions...
Page 1 of 2 [1] 2  Next Thread Tools
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2007-02-19, 14:27

...and I like him more now than I did five minutes ago.



http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2503

No, it's not the end-all/be-call reason...but dammit, someone with some visibility and clout (and who isn't seen by the general public as a "right wing flamethrower") needed to say it!

Good for Steve.

I've got friends in education, at various levels (teachers to school board level) and they say the same things, only they can't say it out loud for fear of this or that.



There are some useless, incompetent and dead-weight teachers out there who have no business whatsoever being in a classroom...but just try getting rid of one.

Good luck.

  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2007-02-19, 14:37

This is why we homeschool our kids. Our local school system is pretty bad, though not the worst by any means. Maybe people will listen, I doubt it though. The public schools are government after all.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2007-02-19, 15:03

That's the thing...even though there is common sense and truth in what he's saying (bad teachers gumming up the works and the difficulty in getting rid of them...does ny reasonable, honest person with experience in these matters disagree with this?), it will be spun into "Apple CEO Steve Jobs Attacks All School Teachers Across the Nation...Says They're Bad and Need to Be Fired!"



As we speak, the unions are probably forming some sort of response/retaliation that in no way addresses the specifics he spoke on. They'll just circle the wagons and paint him as "attacking teachers", and that's it.

I'm guessing Macs are going to lose out in some school purchases now. Not because of the merit of the actual OS and computer, mind you. Just that their CEO "was mean" and said some things that irked a powerful group. They'll do it just to hurt him or "send a message".



Just watch. It's not even up for debate, their response/reaction.

He'll get lumped in with John Stossel and whoever else has dared to point some things out over the years.

And because he "rose to their defense", Michael Dell will be the education buyers' darling now, and you'll see a big shift from Macs to them in some places.

I'm sure Dell (who was present at the time) was "cheering on the inside" and thinking to himself "just keep talking, iDork...ka-ching, ka-ching...".

  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2007-02-19, 16:10

It's a tough thing, and it's easy to make it sound like a certain profession or calling is "getting attacked". But it's not.

I do think it boils down to something pretty simple: very few of us would run our households or businesses (if we had one) the way that governments and big complex entities like unions run or control things. Think about it: the waste, inefficiency, corruption, lack of accountability, etc.

We wouldn't stand for it in our personal bill-paying and budgeting. Or if the guy who was doing your landscaping or putting new siding on your house was a complete louse-up, you'd know what to do.

When you can't do that in certain instances, it makes it tough.

Where's the incentive? The motivation? For those (and they exist) who don't have it deep within their hearts as a driving force in their lives, what do you do when their performance is simply not up to par, yet getting rid of them and getting someone else in their place is, in many cases, next to impossible.

True teachers - good teachers - should not be afraid of that. They should be upset that some in their profession are "half-assing" it. I know I would be. I would imagine only the lazy and incompetent in their ranks (again, they exist...let's not be so Pollyanna-ish as to not accept that) would fear or be offended at anything Jobs said (or similar statements from anyone).

And, frankly, they're part of the problem (the incompetents)...so who cares what they think? Honestly? A few of them can make the motivated, dedicated and great teachers look worse - as a profession - than anything some geek CEO from northern California could ever say about their profession.

Look at it like that, if you must.

Jobs has a point. He probably said it in the worst way possible - and in front of a crowd who doesn't want to hear it - but it doesn't mean there's not some truth to it. He's not diplomatic. But that's not always a bad thing.

I hope Apple doesn't suffer too much for it (although I'd be okay with that if it started some dialogue and rethinking of certain aspects of public education...what's a few lost iMac sales in the big scheme of things?).



Thank goodness is was some NorCal ex-hippie/left-of-center type who said it...chances are it won't get reported on much and it won't turn into anything other than a tech-centric story (had it been Rush or someone like that, it would be all over the place by now, and a big, ugly and divisive story).



You know this.
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2007-02-19, 16:19

No matter how it's spun, the unions are at fault for *many* problems in the education system. In my old district, which was in debt by $2 million, the principal let go half the janitorial staff, and asked teachers to help out by taking out their own garbage and such, so the few left could handle the bigger tasks.

The unions got pissed about this and said that since the teachers' contracts don't say they have to take out the garbage, the principal can't ask them too.

When the baseball team got some parent volunteers to mow the baseball field, once again, the unions rose up and said that the district can't use *volunteers* to fill the jobs of any union employee who gets laid off.

As much as this country needed unions, and still needs them in some industries, when it comes to education, teacher unions are absolute poison in their current state.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2007-02-19, 16:21

They certainly are in those particular cases. Ugh.

Are you serious? Parents couldn't get together, voluntarily, on a Saturday and mow the ball field for the players, and make an afternoon of it?



Jeez...something's broken.
  quote
kretara
Cynical Old Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The Hot, Hazey, Humid South
Send a message via AIM to kretara Send a message via Yahoo to kretara  
2007-02-19, 17:16

All right everyone, THIS IS NOT A POST TO START A RACE FLAME WAR!

I am really hesitant to post this since some people will take it as racist. I am simply posting what I was told by both black and white teachers/administrators about this situation. I have had both poor and excellent (and lots of in the middle) teachers who were black or white, and my favorite teacher of all time was my black 7th grade English teacher (see, I already feel the need to defend myself).

This issue has been around for a long, long time. I went to the Little Rock Public School system in the 70's - mid-80's and even then you could not easially fire a bad teacher, well, at least if they were black. Many of my friends parents (black and white) were teachers or administrators and I got to hear quite a bit of grumbling about the school districts inability to fire a poorly performing black teacher because of unions and the NAACP. A white teacher had some protection (union) but it was still much easier to fire a white teacher. I heard of instances where a black teacher was caught doing drugs at school (not in front of the kids), but could not be fired. I have heard of instances where a black teacher was caught in the 'wrong' position with a female student, but could not be fired. They could be moved to another school, but they could not be fired (kind of like the Catholic church and pedophiles) All this was back in the 70's and 80's.

Back to the 00's (at least in the Little Rock school district). Well, I still know some teachers/administrators and they say that much of the above is STILL true to this day. You pretty much can't fire a black teacher (because of union + NAACP + black activists) for being a poor teacher, only for 'serious' violations (drugs, sex, physical/verbal abuse -- but the union and NAACP will still try to stop the firing). A white teacher (has more protection now than ever before) can be fired for being a poor teacher, BUT the union will fight it like all hell against it.

Least one think this is only a Southern thing. In a past job I had to spend lots of time with k-12 teachers from the Boston school district and a few suburban districts around Boston. A vast majority of the teachers (black, white, indian and asian) told me about similar issues.

Draw your own conclusions about how easy this system would be to change.

I'm all for what Job's said. The poor teachers should be let go and the good teachers should be retained and promoted. Of course, that is in a perfect world.

On one hand I really hate the teachers union (and so do all the teachers that I know) because they are like almost all other unions -- only out for themselves and in many ways corrupt. One the other hand I do like the unions because it seems like the union is the only way that a teacher will be paid a living wage, get decent benefits and prevent abuse by bone headed governments.
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2007-02-19, 17:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
They certainly are in those particular cases. Ugh.

Are you serious? Parents couldn't get together, voluntarily, on a Saturday and mow the ball field for the players, and make an afternoon of it?



Jeez...something's broken.
I'll see if I can find the article.

edit: My old town's local paper doesn't have a search function on their website, and I'm not going to go hunting for an article that's probably two years old.

Granted, this was an extreme case, as that town had a seriously screwed up local government, at every level. The amount of mudslinging and backstabbing over something as simple as a school board race was disgusting, and this wasn't even a large town.
  quote
Dorian Gray
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Paris, France
 
2007-02-19, 17:43

kretara, you already have a lot of weird stuff in your posting history about blacks (I remember a few odd comments and a quick search revealed a lot more). Not sure why you're so offended about blacks keeping their jobs (surely there are enough jobs to go around?), but is it a good idea to drag it out every time you have half a chance?

I'm not a teacher, but I was a pupil. Never had a truly bad teacher: the most disruptive thing was when a teacher was changed, so if unions reduce staff turnover they do a good job in my opinion. But I went to a very small primary school (~70 kids aged 4-11) with just three teachers for all subjects and ages. So when a teacher left the change was deep and wide-ranging.

… engrossed in such factional acts as dreaming different dreams.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2007-02-19, 21:13

I was lucky, in that I had really good teachers. I was simply a bad student; no sense in lying or putting the blame elsewhere. They tried.

But I've had friends, relatives and co-workers over the years share some real horror stories re: "bad teachers".

Enough to make me feel thankful that I had good ones.
  quote
Benton
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2007-02-19, 21:13

Apple Helped How?
... and how did Steve Jobs represent Apple as a solution to the issues confronting education?
On Apple's time Steve Jobs should propose methods and procedures Apple is capable of bringing to the challenges faced by members of EDUCAUSE.
What ever his personal philosophies may be that influence how he prefers to spend his own money I wish he'd check them at the door.
Steve was invited to showcase Apple's vision for the education market. He was not invited to quarrel with or slander attendees.
On this day he was part of the problem, not part of Apple's solution. He needs to keep these Bad days to a minimum.

[
  quote
kretara
Cynical Old Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The Hot, Hazey, Humid South
Send a message via AIM to kretara Send a message via Yahoo to kretara  
2007-02-19, 23:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian Gray View Post
kretara, you already have a lot of weird stuff in your posting history about blacks (I remember a few odd comments and a quick search revealed a lot more). Not sure why you're so offended about blacks keeping their jobs (surely there are enough jobs to go around?), but is it a good idea to drag it out every time you have half a chance?

I'm not a teacher, but I was a pupil. Never had a truly bad teacher: the most disruptive thing was when a teacher was changed, so if unions reduce staff turnover they do a good job in my opinion. But I went to a very small primary school (~70 kids aged 4-11) with just three teachers for all subjects and ages. So when a teacher left the change was deep and wide-ranging.
Funny. You were one of the people that I thought would get bent about this.

Quote:
Not sure why you're so offended about blacks keeping their jobs
You don't read very well do you? I was relaying what I was told by other teachers and administrators (both black and white).
  quote
Schnauzer
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arizona
 
2007-02-19, 23:43

God i love steve jobs
  quote
ShadowOfGed
Travels via TARDIS
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earthsea
 
2007-02-20, 01:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton View Post
Apple Helped How?
By being bluntly truthful.

We are not going to help the system by being rosy and politically correct about very real problems. It's true that horrendous teachers are rarely let go, though for two more factors in addition to the unions. They are:
  • Tenure (possibly a product of unions)
  • Shortage of good teachers
Seriously, if we fired every bad teacher there is, we'd have a serious shortage of teachers, since good ones are harder to find. This is because the pay is so low that the profession only draws either (a) those who truly aspire to the ideal of educating others or (b) those who enjoy having power over youth. There is no draw for people to become good teachers for the money, because the money simply isn't there.



That said, not firing bad teachers sets a horrible precedent. In high school, I had a band teacher who was as stupid as I've seen 'em. He was arrogant, bossy, and played a serious game of favorites. You could be the best musician in the world, but if he hated you, your game was over. If the students or parents offered constructive suggestions, he would do the exact opposite just to flex his muscle as the band program's authority figure. In fact, he once stated plainly that he purposely did the exact opposite. Now that I've graduated, he magically implemented the ideas we left behind. Now they look like "his" ideas. A first-class asshat, he was. But his power grab drove the once-great program into the ground, so I'm glad I got out in the last class of decent musicians.

He needed to get fired after his first year, but nobody would listen to us before he got tenured. It was infuriating.



The reason Jobs was so blunt is because teachers, administrators, parents, and students keep looking towards technology and its providers for the "silver bullet" solution. They want obscene quantities of technology to magically solve the problem. Throw money and computers at the students, and they'll learn. It's bullshit.



As Jobs correctly said, the only way to better educate students is to get them interested in the material. There must be some goal or endgame that they find fascinating or otherwise compelling. Without an internal sense of drive, they'll lack the desire to go anywhere. We blame this lack of interest wholly on the school system. However, the blame also lies on parents who don't value education, or (as Obama said) the cultural stigma that a black student with books is "too white." These are other serious problems that hold students back, and no amount of money or technology will fix it.

Teachers, administrators, and parents need to be responsible for helping grow students' interest in learning, but ultimately it's the responsibility of the student. I think Jobs and Dell were gathered because a PTA wanted technology to be their magic solution. Jobs was honest and told how Macs can help by being a tool that opens up the creative world to students. Dell, as he is wont to do, sat around and waited to angle for more sales. The difference is that Jobs pitched computers as a means to achieve greater student interest, whereas Dell brown-nosed and perpetuated the myth that computers can be "the solution."



This problem exists at universities too. I had a horrible, horrible professor that was an ass and lied through his teeth*, who was eventually let go. There was another, who was the resident "presentation expert," but hadn't ever studied a Steve Jobs keynote... I asked. He wrote books and did research, so they kept him on; he was also an asshat and full of himself, but that was OK with the administration.

Universities are also a perpetrator of technology-is-the-solution mentality. Our current fad is Tablet PCs. All incoming engineers are required to buy a Tablet for their first-year classes. There's no added benefit, seriously. I never use my laptop in higher-level classes, and I guarantee the more-expensive Tablets will see the same fate. It just looks good on paper, and is a sink-hole for grant money. Retards. Why are these senseless money-mongering bureaucrats in control?!



Jobs did the system a favor by being painfully truthful to the people that run it. It won't change soon, but we can't perpetuate the myth that "computers are the solution" without recognizing that they are merely a tool, and that bad teachers can't be helped by any amount of resources. Though bad and corrupt teachers are a problem, the blame also lies on every interest group that continually sloughs off responsibility by blaming "the system." Mostly, parents blame "the system" for their own shortcomings.

I could write a novel on what I think is wrong with education. Jobs hit the tip of the iceberg, and I'm just gonna stop my rant here. Whew.



* - This teacher claimed to have invented fiber-optics, drop-down menus, various assistive technologies, and more. He picked one for each section, so I might have believed him had I not heard the other tall tales he told. There's no lifetime long enough to achieve all of that. I'm glad he got canned. His grading was outrageous too: "best I've seen -- 97," without any markup. My group got docked points for the most impressive report I've ever put together. And that says a lot.

Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2007-02-20, 01:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I was lucky, in that I had really good teachers. I was simply a bad student; no sense in lying or putting the blame elsewhere. They tried.

But I've had friends, relatives and co-workers over the years share some real horror stories re: "bad teachers".

Enough to make me feel thankful that I had good ones.
I had mostly good teachers. There were two I can think of that just sucked. One was so bad I dropped out of her class and because a student assistant in another just so I wouldn't have to be around her. My mom and the school administration completely approved too! It was a good day to leave her behind.

I haven't had the issue of bad professors at college yet. I'm only in my second semester though.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
RowdyScot
Ice Arrow Sniper
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Great Bay Temple
Send a message via AIM to RowdyScot Send a message via Skype™ to RowdyScot 
2007-02-20, 07:26

As a teacher to be, I can tell you I wholly support Jobs in this. I'm fucking terrified of having to join a teaching union, no matter where I end up. They're cancer to education. There's nothing more to say about them than that. Unions may have been created with the best intent, but teachers aren't exactly getting killed by the work they do or being forced to work unfair hours. Seriously, we get summers off and we can't pick up our own garbage at the workplace? This is what is wrong with education in the US. The few out there that are so worried about being told to do something a little differently or that their best friend in the workplace will be fired hold some sort of power. Meanwhile, that best friend lets Jimmy slip by by bumping his 32% in algebra to a 62%. Who gets hurt? Jimmy and his classmates. Not only does Jimmy have no clue about anything in math, but now his classmates are forced to take it slower when a good teacher tries to slow the class down and help the stragglers out. Shit, I could go off on this stuff for weeks at a time, and unfortunately, the notion that I can't do anything about it from within is all too true. The second my mouth opens, I'm fired and left with so many "comments" about myself that I'll never teach again. Hell, even posting anything here is risking my future. God forbid teachers have some accountability for their actions. The unions are so fucking worried about "protecting their own" that instead of caring about the kids, they just blackball anyone who fucking opposes. It's fucking criminal.

Authentic Nova Scotia bagpipe innards
  quote
spotcatbug
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Clayton, NC
 
2007-02-20, 09:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfGed View Post
This is because the pay is so low that the profession only draws either (a) those who truly aspire to the ideal of educating others or (b) those who enjoy having power over youth. There is no draw for people to become good teachers for the money, because the money simply isn't there.
I used to think the same about teachers' pay. However, the only info I had was the complaints of my high school teachers. Not exactly an unbiased assessment. I'm not in high school anymore (by a long shot!), and a live in a different, less affluent city. I'm sure the relative pay of teachers varies widely from location to location, but where I live right now...

Property owners are constantly battling the school board over property taxes increases. During this battling, the teachers used to try to justify their pay/benefits increases by crying and whining about how little money they made.

Several years ago a local businessman got sick and tired of the teachers whining and crying. He took out a full-paged ad in the local paper and published all the teachers salaries (turns out the info was readily available). It was kind of a dick move, yeah. Nobody wants their salary info "out there", but, in fairness to him, the teachers really forced the issue with their constant complaining.

Anyway, the short of it is, the teachers around here are paid very well. Much more than other professionals in the area. It was a real eye-opener for everybody. The result? The teachers don't complain about pay anymore, but they never really needed to; they still get their raises. There's just no whiny bullshit about it. More like, "We'll get our money because we can." Not, "Oh, we're so poor, we need this raise!" Or, "How can you deprive your children of good teachers by paying them so little!"

Ugh.
  quote
Wyatt
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Near Indianapolis
 
2007-02-20, 09:59

spotcatbug, that may be true where you live, but that's far from the truth as a general rule. Most teachers get paid precisely dick, especially young teachers.

It depends somewhat on where you teach, but most teachers get the shaft.

Twitter: bwyatt | Xbox: @playsbadly | Instagram: @bw317
  quote
spotcatbug
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Clayton, NC
 
2007-02-20, 10:07

Which is why I prefaced the whole thing with:
Quote:
I'm sure the relative pay of teachers varies widely from location to location, but where I live right now...
And my point was, when it matters (like during tax increase battles), rather than simply believing a statement like this one:
Quote:
It depends somewhat on where you teach, but most teachers get the shaft.
It would probably be a good idea to actually check what teachers in your area are making.

But, yeah, I don't doubt at all that many (even most) are underpaid. But, at least now I know it's not all.

Ugh.
  quote
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2007-02-20, 14:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by RowdyScot View Post
This is what is wrong with education in the US.
There is a lot that is wrong with education in the U.S. What you said doesn't even scratch the surface.

It's somewhat pointless to try to simply say teacher unions are the problem.

Jobs is somewhat right in regards to teacher unions but his argument lacks substance and depth. It's easy to spout off like he did. It's much harder to actually see the light at the end of the tunnel and make the suggestions that would lead to that light.

He did not do that. He can do that with his company, apparently he can't do that with education (no surprise, it's not his field). But he certainly seems to have a very basic understanding of education.

In reality, the best thing Jobs could have said to this conference is, "Stop wasting your money and resources on our products and other technology. It is not the solution, and it's only making things worse."

That would have been a bit more "blunt" and required a bit more balls, but despite what he said about losing a few CA sales, he would never do that, because it's all talk.
  quote
jimdad
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Scotland
 
2007-02-20, 16:19

I'll own up at the start - I'm a teacher. From another system where the problem doesn't seem to be quite as bad (although it's still difficult to remove poor teachers). However, Spotcat, are you saying that the teachers in your area earned more than the lawyers and doctors???? I'm on my way.
  quote
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2007-02-20, 16:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimdad View Post
I'll own up at the start - I'm a teacher. From another system where the problem doesn't seem to be quite as bad (although it's still difficult to remove poor teachers). However, Spotcat, are you saying that the teachers in your area earned more than the lawyers and doctors???? I'm on my way.
I doubt it, but I also don't see any reason to think they should.
  quote
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2007-02-20, 16:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by spotcatbug View Post
Yup.
I don't see how that is possible in a public school.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2007-02-20, 16:51

I think my little theory about "who can say what" (and how it's reported - positively or negatively - and how nasty and divisive of a story it becomes) is holding up nicely.

I'm not hearing a peep from this on any news site or broadcast.

Put Jobs' exact words into the mouths of some others, and imagine the fall-out and outrage (and prominent place in all the news sites).

  quote
spotcatbug
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Clayton, NC
 
2007-02-20, 17:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
I don't see how that is possible in a public school.
Why is that?

I deleted my "Yup" almost right after posting it, because doctors and lawyers, specifically, are professionals that seem to make a lot wherever you go. I can't say for certain about doctors and lawyers (although I'm still not leaving them out), but definitely other white collar professionals around here (like me and others I know) made much less. I base the "others I know" part on just how shocked everyone was at the salaries teachers were getting (and of course I was aware of my own pay).

Ugh.
  quote
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2007-02-21, 11:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by spotcatbug View Post
Why is that?

I deleted my "Yup" almost right after posting it, because doctors and lawyers, specifically, are professionals that seem to make a lot wherever you go. I can't say for certain about doctors and lawyers (although I'm still not leaving them out), but definitely other white collar professionals around here (like me and others I know) made much less. I base the "others I know" part on just how shocked everyone was at the salaries teachers were getting (and of course I was aware of my own pay).
Because it is simply very hard to believe. And it's very rare that an education system in a town can support higher salaries for teachers than most professionals. I don't know where you are talking about though, but I maybe you could at least say what the figures actually were since I'm very curious.
  quote
AWR
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: State of Flux
 
2007-02-21, 12:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I think my little theory about "who can say what" (and how it's reported - positively or negatively - and how nasty and divisive of a story it becomes) is holding up nicely.

I'm not hearing a peep from this on any news site or broadcast.

Put Jobs' exact words into the mouths of some others, and imagine the fall-out and outrage (and prominent place in all the news sites).

Don't hurt yourself smirking.

I think no one's carrying this because Steve Job's is talking out of his arse. Not just that, but what he think's about teachers unions is irrelevant. But so is Britney's rehab, and that seems to be front page material most places. If Hillary, Obama, McCain or Cheney said this it would actually matter, and I think it would be reported on quite widely and with the typical spin of the reporting news outlet.
  quote
Partial
Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
 
2007-02-21, 12:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
No matter how it's spun, the unions are at fault for *many* problems in the education system. In my old district, which was in debt by $2 million, the principal let go half the janitorial staff, and asked teachers to help out by taking out their own garbage and such, so the few left could handle the bigger tasks.

The unions got pissed about this and said that since the teachers' contracts don't say they have to take out the garbage, the principal can't ask them too.

When the baseball team got some parent volunteers to mow the baseball field, once again, the unions rose up and said that the district can't use *volunteers* to fill the jobs of any union employee who gets laid off.

As much as this country needed unions, and still needs them in some industries, when it comes to education, teacher unions are absolute poison in their current state.
And that my friends is a prime example of overextended government and why labor unions should no longer exist.

Don't even get me started on Tenure. If a professor is an excellent researcher, then he will always have a job available to him in this field and people will compensate him generously for his hard work. If a teacher is an excellent teacher, then the university should reward them accordingly, but certainly not give them an opportunity to slack off after x amount of years of quality service. Tenure is a bad, bad thing for students. Sorry Kick, but I am sure you of all people know that if you're great at your job and work hard, you'll always have plenty of opportunities!!

Last edited by Partial : 2007-02-21 at 12:27.
  quote
spotcatbug
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Clayton, NC
 
2007-02-21, 13:26

I didn't really want to be the "teachers make too much money" weirdo in this thread. I don't think that's true, in general (as I said). What I think is true is that they are not always underpaid. You need to check it out if your local teachers union is claiming that their teachers aren't making enough money. My entire point was that, where I live, the union used the pervasive belief (fact, whatever you want) that teachers are very underpaid to justify their compensation increases. Once the truth of their compensation was published, they stopped doing that. They still got their increases, but it was nicer because you didn't have to listen to the bull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
maybe you could at least say what the figures actually were since I'm very curious.
Well, the info was published several years ago, as I said, so I didn't have the figures right there in my mind to type up, or I would have. However, it turns out it wasn't too hard to find something relevant (I wish I could have found a copy of the full-paged ad I mentioned).

An article from 2000, talking about teacher salaries in my area:
http://www.goerie.com/ourschools/2000_salary.html

Chart from that article (first link at top of article):
http://www.goerie.com/ourschools/salaries_lg.jpg

Now, we all live in different places, so for some (most?) forum members those numbers are going to look "not so high". Around here, in 1999, those were big numbers. I kinda don't want to give away my salary info here, although nobody here (I don't think) knows who I really am. Let me just say that, if I were making now, in 2007, per year, the lowest salary on that chart, I would not be terribly unhappy. I'm a software developer with lots of experience and a 4-year degree from a good school.

The author mentions that the large disparity between teachers and administrators salaries is partially due to the fact that teachers are on a 9 month contract, whereas administrators are 12 month. So, those teacher salaries are for 9 months work. Even if you spread their salaries out over 12 months in order to avoid multiplying them by 4/3 (12 months compared to 9 months), you would still need to take into account a 3 month paid vacation which is a pretty huge benefit, not to mention the incredible health and pension benefits. Oh yeah, I forgot that part until now. I remember trying to discuss these at a school board meeting - totally off limits for talking about. Their health insurance was completely paid for - no individual contributions. This was right during the time when everybody else in the real world was having their health insurance benefits readjusted to include individual contributions from pay or to have their individual contribution amounts increased. Also, when the teachers' pension plan took a big hit one year, the tax payers had to re-fund a large portion of the teachers pension plan because they made investment mistakes. Must be nice to be able to go for the high risk returns without the high risk.

Ugh.
  quote
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2007-02-21, 23:22

Thanks for that. It made for an interesting read. Your teachers make more than I had expected.

But another thing is your average teacher experience is remarkably high.... 18.6 years of teaching experience average for one of those top paying districts. When you have a workforce with experience like that, the average salary is going to obviously be quite high.

Nonetheless, your teachers are paid relatively well, and the administrator pay seems to be inline with a lot of places. But I wouldn't say that your teachers make more than all professionals in your area. Obviously, maybe you in the software development field may not make as much, but doctors, lawyers, etc certainly make more than your teachers.

And really, I don't know your area well, and the cost of living is most likely lower than in most areas, but if after 18.5 years of doing a job you are only making 42,000... that is not good.
  quote
Posting Rules Navigation
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Page 1 of 2 [1] 2  Next

Post Reply

Forum Jump
Thread Tools
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Daring Fireball: "Conjectural Apple-Universal negotiations transcript" chucker General Discussion 14 2006-12-06 00:41
Microsoft designs a school Windswept AppleOutsider 52 2006-09-11 22:07
What is it with Apples Jules26 Apple Products 79 2005-01-18 04:33
Steve Jobs is a dick. Akumulator General Discussion 15 2005-01-10 21:26


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:32.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2024, AppleNova