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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-12-21, 17:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
You know, I've been hunting for this.

Was Donald Trump formally charged with treason/insurrection by a Colorado court of law, tried in court by a jury of peers, and found to be guilty of said crime? Or did the court just "find him guilty"?
I’ve been wondering this point too. A state level court pulled on their big boy pants and said guilty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
That very much is a problem with media today, on both sides of the fence. It’s a reflection of how much more politically polarized people have become in recent decades. Is that the media’s fault? Maybe. Question is were we in the west going in that direction already? I’d say that we were, but the media and social media/forums/chat groups all built on that and made it explode. As a society we are becoming very tribal, and it’s sad to see.
Social media and virtue signaling have escalated it IMO. I support “thing” and I have a tweet/post/hashtag about said “thing”. Social media followers and such freak out and either dogpile or scream of the injustice of it. Pick your side so you can be “in” too. MSM just picks the one that follows their political slant and runs with the dogpile or screams of injustice.

Rinse repeat retweet.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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kscherer
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2023-12-21, 18:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
The district court found that he committed treason. There is nothing about being barred from a ballot that requires a conviction. The constitution’s eligibility requirements are self-enforcing. When the 14th was used to bar confederates after the Civil War there was no requirement of conviction either.
So, treason can be punished without charges or trial?

Ok, got it.

That will be fun for the future.
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PB PM
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2023-12-21, 18:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
So, treason can be punished without charges or trial?

Ok, got it.

That will be fun for the future.
Did you read the story in his first post about this at all? Yes there were trials, that how it got to the Colorado Supreme Court in the first place…
  quote
turtle
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2023-12-21, 18:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Did you read the story in his first post about this at all? Yes there were trials, that how it got to the Colorado Supreme Court in the first place…
I don't know that you would know this, but do the CO courts have the proper jurisdiction over this matter? I mean, I know that matters.

* Again, I'm not reading these things which is why I'm asking. I just skim the headlines.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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kscherer
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2023-12-21, 18:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Did you read the story in his first post about this at all? Yes there were trials, that how it got to the Colorado Supreme Court in the first place…
No, sorry, it's behind a pay-wall.
  quote
PB PM
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2023-12-21, 18:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
No, sorry, it's behind a pay-wall.
Strange, I had problem reading it. I can assure you I don't subscribe to random papers nowhere near where I live.
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PB PM
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2023-12-21, 18:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
I don't know that you would know this, but do the CO courts have the proper jurisdiction over this matter? I mean, I know that matters.

* Again, I'm not reading these things which is why I'm asking. I just skim the headlines.
I suppose Colorado likely has jurisdiction over who can run in their state, but I have no clue about American election rules and such.

Personally I find the entire thing to be rather strange. Why even do this? On a national level is Trump on trial for this issue? I cannot even remember, he is on trail in several places for several things, but cannot recall if it's for this issue.
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turtle
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2023-12-21, 18:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
I suppose Colorado likely has jurisdiction over who can run in their state, but I have no clue about American election rules and such.

Personally I find the entire thing to be rather strange. Why even do this? On a national level is Trump on trial for this issue? I cannot even remember, he is on trail in several places for several things, but cannot recall if it's for this issue.
Well, jurisdiction over whether Trump committed insurrection or violated the Constitution. Sure they should be able to rule over their own state laws, but interpreting the Constitution doesn't seem to be their wheelhouse.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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PB PM
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2023-12-21, 19:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Well, jurisdiction over whether Trump committed insurrection or violated the Constitution. Sure they should be able to rule over their own state laws, but interpreting the Constitution doesn't seem to be their wheelhouse.
Isn't that usually how things like that go? They start in a regional court, then the state/higher court, then the Federal court. If it was a constitutional challenge I could see it starting with the highest court. I'm far more familiar with the English style of courts though, so I'm out of my knowledge base.
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kscherer
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2023-12-21, 19:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Isn't that usually how things like that go? They start in a regional court, then the state/higher court, then the Federal court. If it was a constitutional challenge I could see it starting with the highest court.
Colorado cannot bring federal charges against any citizen. Trump is charged with inciting insurrection against the federal government, which is outside of Colorado's jurisdiction.

This is why I'm questioning the manner in which he was charged and tried. If he was found guilty of a federal charge in a state court, that is outside the bounds for both Colorado's constitution, and the Federal constitution, and that will eventually be tossed.

If someone has a link to the story that isn't behind a paywall I'd love to read it.

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Last edited by kscherer : 2023-12-21 at 19:30.
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PB PM
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2023-12-21, 19:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Colorado cannot bring federal charges against any citizen. Trump is charged with inciting insurrection against the federal government, which is outside of Colorado's jurisdiction.

This is why I'm questioning the manner in which he was charged and tried.
Okay, very different system in the US then.
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turtle
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2023-12-21, 21:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post


Personally I find the entire thing to be rather strange. Why even do this? On a national level is Trump on trial for this issue? I cannot even remember, he is on trail in several places for several things, but cannot recall if it's for this issue.
The reason to push this really boils down to “Orange man bad”. The states that are pushing for Trump to not be on their ballot are liberal/Democrat and don’t want him competing in the race for President. Arguably, this is what some call Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Trump is currently being picked apart by Special Counsel Jack Smith. As I understand it*, this is to find out if he should stand trial for insurrection. Kinda like an indictment. Then if it looks like Trump did bad, then it goes to trial. Something like that. I’m sure someone will be able to correct me on this who is actually watching all the updates and news feeds on this.


* Remember, I don’t read this stuff and only pick highlights from headlines or little conversations.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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PB PM
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2023-12-21, 21:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
The reason to push this really boils down to “Orange man bad”. The states that are pushing for Trump to not be on their ballot are liberal/Democrat and don’t want him competing in the race for President. Arguably, this is what some call Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Trump is currently being picked apart by Special Counsel Jack Smith. As I understand it*, this is to find out if he should stand trial for insurrection. Kinda like an indictment. Then if it looks like Trump did bad, then it goes to trial. Something like that. I’m sure someone will be able to correct me on this who is actually watching all the updates and news feeds on this.


* Remember, I don’t read this stuff and only pick highlights from headlines or little conversations.
I thought there was some kind of thing going on with him on the matter, it's just been a long time, so it's a good reminder that yes it is being investigated. I guess that got lost in all the stuff over the classified document scandal and the stuff in NY.
  quote
Ryan
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2023-12-21, 23:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Isn't that usually how things like that go? They start in a regional court, then the state/higher court, then the Federal court. If it was a constitutional challenge I could see it starting with the highest court. I'm far more familiar with the English style of courts though, so I'm out of my knowledge base.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Colorado cannot bring federal charges against any citizen. Trump is charged with inciting insurrection against the federal government, which is outside of Colorado's jurisdiction.

This is why I'm questioning the manner in which he was charged and tried. If he was found guilty of a federal charge in a state court, that is outside the bounds for both Colorado's constitution, and the Federal constitution, and that will eventually be tossed.

If someone has a link to the story that isn't behind a paywall I'd love to read it.
A few notes.

1. States are sovereign in their administration of elections.

2. Application of state law, which is a key element of the Colorado case, is expressly not reviewable by SCOTUS. State supreme courts are the final arbiter of their own laws and constitutions. Colorado election law is a bit different than other states in that it provides an explicit path to challenge ballot eligibility and has for over forty years.

(State and federal courts are much more parallel than hierarchical)

3. There is no federal charge in this case. Plaintiffs sued the Colorado secretary of state (the chief election administrator) under Colorado law to force her to remove Trump from the ballot. Trump was granted leave by the court to intervene in the case and argue his point.

(Where I said “treason” in my earlier post I misspoke and meant “insurrection”)
  quote
Ryan
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2023-12-21, 23:38

I’m going to post some highlights from the SCOCO ruling that I think will clear stuff up.

First, their bottom line:

Quote:
The Electors and President Trump sought this court's review of various rulings by the district court. We affirm in part and reverse in part. We hold as
follows:
  • The Election Code allows the Electors to challenge President Trump's status as a qualified candidate based on Section Three. Indeed, the Election Code provides the Electors their only viable means of litigating whether President Trump is disqualified from holding office under Section Three.
  • Congress does not need to pass implementing legislation for Section Three's disqualification provision to attach, and Section Three is, in that sense, self-executing.
  • Judicial review of President Trump's eligibility for office under Section Three is not precluded by the political question doctrine.
  • Section Three encompasses the office of the Presidency and someone who has taken an oath as President. On this point, the district court committed reversible error.
  • The district court did not abuse its discretion in admitting portions of Congress's January 6 Report into evidence at trial.
  • The district court did not err in concluding that the events at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021, constituted an "insurrection."
  • The district court did not err in concluding that President Trump "engaged in" that insurrection through his personal actions.
  • President Trump's speech inciting the crowd that breached the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021, was not protected by the First Amendment.
They cite ample precedent, including past decisions by sitting SCOTUS justices:

Quote:
As then-Judge Gorsuch recognized in Hassan, it is "a state's legitimate interest in protecting the integrity and practical functioning of the political process" that "permits it to exclude from the ballot candidates who are constitutionally prohibited from assuming office."
Quote:
The Supreme Court has said that the Fourteenth Amendment "is undoubtedly self-executing without any ancillary legislation, so far as its terms are applicable to any existing state of circumstances."
The Reconstruction Amendments are clearly self-executing:

Quote:
Furthermore, we agree with the Electors that interpreting any of the Reconstruction Amendments, given their identical structure, as not self-executing would lead to absurd results. If these Amendments required legislation to make them operative, then Congress could nullify them by simply not passing enacting legislation. The result of such inaction would mean that slavery remains legal;
And finally, water is wet:

Quote:
We conclude that the foregoing evidence, the great bulk of which was undisputed at trial, established that President Trump engaged in insurrection. President Trump's direct and express efforts, over several months, exhorting his supporters to march to the Capitol to prevent what he falsely characterized as an alleged fraud on the people of this country were indisputably overt and voluntary. Moreover, the evidence amply showed that President Trump undertook all these actions to aid and further a common unlawful purpose that he himself conceived and set in motion: prevent Congress from certifying the 2020 presidential election and stop the peaceful transfer of power.
  quote
drewprops
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Join Date: May 2004
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2023-12-22, 00:32

I will concede that I do not relish having courts weigh in on the political process, as it creates a precedent that will be abused in the same way that impeachment (formerly a deterrent and unthinkable option) has become a political tool increasingly used by legislators.

I will remind you of how everyone seems to become a constitutional expert in times like these.

I will conclude by saying that I do not have the faith that Republicans will vote for anyone other that the man who fomented rebellion and don't tell me that he didn't.

That's how threads like these are made pointless.

We believe what we believe and you won't stop us.

Rare is the time when grown adults change their hearts and minds, and it typically does not involve another person telling them how wrong they are.



...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
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_Ω_
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2023-12-22, 05:50

You guys are fucked. Which sadly means everyone else is fucked as well.

Sort your shit out
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Ryan
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2023-12-22, 10:21

For those who believe conviction is required for 14AS3: Jefferson Davis was never tried, so would he be permitted to run for president under the 14th? Is that really the intention of the Reconstruction Amendments?
  quote
kscherer
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2023-12-22, 11:32

The good news (and by "good" I mean "GREAT!!") is that Colorado is fully in support of its Democrat government simply saying you're an "insurrectionist", offering you a kangaroo-court trial, and barring you from running for politics. No "charges" filed whatsoever. Guilty until proven innocent. The courts rule.

On this merit alone, I sincerely hope the SCOTUS reviews and tosses this stupid nonsense, lest Republican states follow suit and toss Joe Biden for his [alleged - but all we know he did it] involvement in his son's criminal affairs.

If they don't, you're going to see states all over the country barring the likes of Joe Biden (or any Democrat) from their ballets for "treason" or whatever other charges they can dream up, all in retaliation. Democrats will then do the same, and soon the only choice you will have in any given state is whatever party-loyalist the red/blue state you live in offers you. (For support in this assumption, I can offer up my own state of Idaho whose GOP has already openly condemned the right of its citizens to vote for the Democrat of their choice in retaliation. I mean, if Colorado can't have the Republican candidate of their choice, why should Idaho permit Democrats onto the ballot? I'm not saying this is a good reaction, but that it's a retaliatory reaction that can only snowball).

This is a very dangerous precedent, and if the SCOTUS doesn't overturn it, American politics are going to become the shit-show envy of the world. Russia will look like political geniuses, and those commie-dictator-lead shitholes like North Korea will chuckle at our own self demise.

Gonna be so much fun.

"Welcome to Colorado! Vote for a Democrat. Or the insignificant Republican that we let you vote for."

Or, if you want a red state:

"Welcome to Idaho! Vote for a Republican. Or the insignificant Democrat that we let you vote for."

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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kscherer
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2023-12-22, 11:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
There is no federal charge in this case.
So, Donald Trump was not charged with a crime, but was found guilty of a crime and punished by a court of law?
  quote
turtle
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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2023-12-22, 12:25

Texas is "floating the idea" of removing Sleepy Joe.

Yeah, this won't become a divided nation at all.
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kscherer
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2023-12-22, 12:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Texas is "floating the idea" of removing Sleepy Joe.

Yeah, this won't become a divided nation at all.
Yep.

Now, we can come up with all kinds of ideas that we can label "treason" and use our majorities in the courts to stifle electoral competition.

The "false equivalency" thing will get thrown around a lot, but one man's "treason" is another man's "heroism". The parties now hate each other so vehemently, that neither side is willing to negotiate or compromise, and that can only lead to anarchy.

Democrats allowed Antifa/BLM to destroy their inner cities, so Republicans rebelled and destroyed their own. "But our side is all right and correct and stuff! You're side is the devil!"

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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turtle
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2023-12-22, 13:07

So I don't make you all have to click a link to an article someone shared with me, this is the link and here is the text (emphasis added by me):
Spoiler (click to toggle):
Trump Derangement Syndrome became Orwellian with the recent ruling of the Colorado Supreme Court.

It approved the erasure of Trump from the Republican primary ballot in Colorado, by invoking Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.

That ossified clause was intended to bar any ante-bellum federal officials who joined the Confederacy from again holding federal offices after 1865.

In no way is Trump’s conduct on January 6 comparable to calling for secession, much less prompting a Civil War that cost the country 700,000 lives.

An “insurrectionist” president does not address unarmed protestors with qualifiers like, “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”

How also can one be guilty of insurrection without ever being indicted for such a supposed crime, much less convicted of it?

And the more we learn about January 6, all the more it appears to have been a spontaneous riot, more buffoonish in nature than conspiratorial.

No one has explained the mysterious, politicized January 6 refusal of the Speaker of the House to order a reinforcement of the Capitol police.

Or the FBI stonewalling about its informants in the crowd.

Or the revealing admissions of New York Times reporter Matthew Rosenberg (“a ton of FBI informants among the people who attacked the Capitol”).

Or the warped composition and conduct of the January 6 congressional committee.

Or the months-long official disinformation surrounding the number and circumstances of those who died that day.

That day’s illegality in terms of violence and death paled in comparison to the largely excused and exempted 120 days of summer violence in 2020, when Antifa and BLM engineered riots, arson, and death.

Their planned violence accounted for 35 or so killed, and more than 1,500 injured police officers.

Some $1-2 billion in property was destroyed.

A police precinct, federal courthouse, and iconic Washington, D.C. church were torched.

Mobs attempted to storm the White House grounds and sent the president into a secure underground bunker.


But if one really wishes to imagine genuine “insurrectionary “and actionable language, then recall current Vice President Kamala Harris’s 2020 de facto encouragement to the rioters,

Quote:
But they’re not gonna stop. They’re not gonna stop, and this is a movement, I’m telling you. They’re not gonna stop, and everyone beware, because they’re not gonna stop. They’re not gonna stop before Election Day in November, and they’re not gonna stop after Election Day. Everyone should take note of that, on both levels, that they’re not going to let up — and they should not. And we should not.
Or remember this 2020 insurrectionary warning to two sitting Supreme Court Justices by then Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer.

At the very doors of the court, Schumer revved up an angry crowd with undisguised threats:

Quote:
I want to tell you Gorsuch. I want to tell you Kavanaugh. You have released the whirlwind and you will pay the price. You won’t know what hit you if you go forward with these awful decisions.
The Colorado court ruling is sadly only the most recent in a long series of disastrous firsts that are slowly unwinding the republic and making a mockery of the rule of law.

Remember the Russian collusion hoax and the 2016 Clinton/Fusion GPS effort to destroy a presidential candidate?

Recall the 2020 Russian disinformation farcical claim concerning the genuine Hunter Biden laptop?

Do not forget the precedent of impeaching a president twice and then trying an ex-president and private citizen in the Senate.

Then there was another first of raiding an ex-president’s private home over disputes about the removal of presidential papers that are typically solved bureaucratically and as a civil matter.

We are also witnessing ongoing lawfare waged by state and local partisan prosecutors to destroy the current leading presidential candidate.

Their indictments either have no merit or would never have applied to liberal politicians or both.

What will be Colorado’s precedent?

Will red-state courts now respond by erasing Joe Biden from their ballots on grounds that he is “guilty” of insurrectionary activity—by deliberately destroying the southern border, undermining U.S. security, sabotaging federal immigration law, and violating his oath of office?

Will some states remove Vice President Kamala Harris from their 2024 ballots on grounds that in 2020 she deliberately incited insurrectionary protestors who had been engaged in riot, arson, looting, violent assaults on police, and attacks on federal properties?

So does the Left see where it is taking the country?

It is destroying all the old parameters of accepted politics in using any means necessary to deny millions of citizens the right to elect their own highest official.

We have never seen anything like this before in American history. But it is only the latest chapter of an ongoing travesty that will not end well.


Yes this is clearly written by a conservative. Read it. Feel free to try to pick it apart. There might be holes in it. However, there is a ton of truth in it.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.

Last edited by turtle : 2023-12-22 at 13:27.
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709
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2023-12-22, 13:17

Every time I see the term 'Trump Derangement Syndrome' I always thinks it's referring to the people that would actually vote for Trump. Republicans are great at projection, I'll give 'em that.

So it goes.
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turtle
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2023-12-22, 13:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
Every time I see the term 'Trump Derangement Syndrome' I always thinks it's referring to the people that would actually vote for Trump. Republicans are great at projection, I'll give 'em that.


I mean, let's be real here. You defend the Democrats with sincerity but if you look they are just as bad as the Republicans. All sides ping on their opponents for weakness. We all beat our chest in support of our leadership (or who we want as leader).

The thing is, you cannot deny what is really in front of us. Not even being a conspiracy theorist on this one. Public facts are just that.

Edit: Adding this thought; Can't we call just concede that we are mushrooms kept in the dark and fed shit by the media?

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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kscherer
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2023-12-22, 15:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
… we are mushrooms kept in the dark and fed shit by the media?


People believe what they are told to believe.
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PB PM
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2023-12-22, 15:50

I think is very obvious from an outside perspective that the US is either going to have another civil war, or break up in the next 10-20 years. The union clearly does not exist anymore.

I think the only thing that held it together during the last 100 years was big outside threats. Now even that doesn’t seem to be enough anymore.
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kscherer
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2023-12-22, 17:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
I think is very obvious from an outside perspective that the US is either going to have another civil war, or break up in the next 10-20 years. The union clearly does not exist anymore.

I think the only thing that held it together during the last 100 years was big outside threats. Now even that doesn’t seem to be enough anymore.
America's only viable enemy in the modern era is itself.

We have the largest and strongest economy
We have the strongest military
We have a strong, resourceful population

And, to undermine all of that, we have a two-party political system whose extremes are so filled with hatred for the opposing side that we cannot stand beneath the wait of our hubris.

At some point in the next decade(s), someone is going to fire a shot (or throw a brick) at the wrong crowd and it's all going to cave in on itself.

That, or China will hack our electrical grid and send us back to the stone-age, in which case the Republicans will rule because they have all the guns!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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PB PM
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2023-12-22, 19:14

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
We have the largest and strongest economy
We have the strongest military
We have a strong, resourceful population
* You have an economy built on credit, importing more than it manufactures, like the rest of the west. It can topple very quickly.
* Your military uses a well trained smallish force with high end tech. In a large scale conventional war with a country like China, you'd run out of all the fancy gear and willing man power fast, just like Russia has in the Ukraine. Add a population unwilling to accept heavy casualties, in a large conventional war with a determined enemy it won't go well for the US. The Vietnamese beat you, the Chinese can to.
* You have a small (compared to China and India your biggest possible rivals) flaky tribal population that is ready to rip each other to bits.

Fixed it for you.
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kscherer
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2023-12-22, 23:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
* You have an economy built on credit, importing more than it manufactures, like the rest of the west. It can topple very quickly.
Every economy is a bubble. Ours is just the biggest and strongest, and will make the most noise when it pops. The Democrats will squeal the loudest, because they have no food in their cellars, nor do they have guns to guard what they don't have. Then, after smacking down all the Democrats, the Republicans will kill each other tryig to be top-dog.

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Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
* Your military uses a well trained smallish force with high end tech. In a large scale conventional war with a country like China, you'd run out of all the fancy gear and willing man power fast, just like Russia has in the Ukraine. Add a population unwilling to accept heavy casualties, in a large conventional war with a determined enemy it won't go well for the US. The Vietnamese beat you, the Chinese can to.
We kicked the world's ass in two world wars. Since then, Republicrat politicians have been fighting our wars police actions. Left to the soldiers on the ground to determine their own targets and fight their own fights we would have beaten the hell out of North Vietnam, and we can out-nuke China any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
* You have a small (compared to China and India your biggest possible rivals) flaky tribal population that is ready to rip each other to bits.
Every nation has this (including India and China). There is no nation on the planet right now that is truly "United" (except Canada, of course ).

You are not wrong on any of your points. But, each needs a little context.

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