[SantaBarbarian]

I'm wondering if anyone has noticed whether the heat/fan issues discussed in prior threads here have been addressed by the latest update. I've downloaded the combo updater, but haven't yet installed to test for myself.

The heat/fan thing was annoying enough for me that I reverted my PB12 .9GHz to 10.2.8, which runs cool without fan unless I'm really taxing it. The new toys in Tiger just weren't worth the heat and noise to me. I've left Tiger on an external drive, and will install the update there for testing. If nobody else has reported back by the time I get to that (currently on vacation in AK), I'll post a followup in this tread.

ciao

[Brad]

For what it's worth, I've never had any heat/fan issues with my 1.25 GHz PowerBook 12". I've been typing away, surfing the web, and entering info into Excel for several hours now with no sound from my fan at all.

[johnq]

Perhaps people should check the update's About page instead of listing off all their pet peeves

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=301722

[DMBand0026]

I've never had heat issues with my 12" PowerBook 1.33ghz. The fan turns on when the computer is under heavy load, and the fan turns off when it's not. Nothing has changed with Tiger and nothing changed with the updates to 10.4.1 or 10.4.2.

[Franz Josef]

Can't say I've ever had heat issues with my 12" PB running Panther,10.4, 10.4.1 or 10.4.2

[onlyafterdark]

I havent had any problems with my 12" 867MHz either.

I would suggest installing Temperature Monitor and find out what temp your fans come on / turn off at. Then you might have a better idea whether you have a heat / fan problem.

[Chinney]

Although those responding to this thread so far seem to have no problems, this has been the subject of other threads over the last couple of months in which enough people reported problems to at least raise suspicions.

http://forums.applenova.com/showthre...heat+fan+tiger
http://forums.applenova.com/showthre...heat+fan+tiger
http://forums.applenova.com/showthre...heat+fan+tiger


Although a lot of suggestions for causes were made, I am not sure that the AN threads ever got the bottom of the problem to everyone’s satisfaction.

[SantaBarbarian]

Wow, it's exciting to read that so many people don't notice heat/fan problems with their powerbooks! I'm jealous.

As mentioned above, some people really do have problems even after all the known issues are addressed. I'm one of those unlucky guys. I did install several temp monitors, and by booting in 10.2.8 and 10.4.1 I verified it definitely runs significantly hotter in Tiger.

I agree with those who say that just raising the fan on threshold will only make it hotter to touch and probably less reliable long-term. I found three possible solutions in my case:
1. Live with it. Too hot and noisy for my liking.
2. Reduce CPU speed. Still a bit hot, and slow on some ops.
3. Downshift back to 10.2.8 and hope for a fix. I chose door number three, thus my query here.

Two potential causes emerged when I was exploring it:
1. GPU variations in different Macs react differently to the graphics system changes in Tiger. Some run a great deal faster and possibly also cooler, while others (mine) get very hot even at idle (<3% CPU load).
2. I found that using the internal dialup modem added a lot to the heat, and would get the fan going within a few minutes (tho it often wouldn't shut off again even after logout and idle for 20 minutes). I never got around to testing whether the installed Apple WiFi card would similarly spike the heat, because I won't be usning that much anyway (downgraded home access to dialup).

I hope someone who had trouble with heat/fan before will write that they no longer do since .2, but I'm not holding my breath.

Congratulations to those not having heat/fan issues.

[SantaBarbarian]

Originally Posted by johnq Perhaps people should check the update's About page instead of listing off all their pet peeves http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=301722

I'm home from AK and have had a night's sleep (which is to say more than the few hours of relative darkness in Anchorage), and wanted to reply to your suggestion.

First off, thanks for the URL. I took a look, and didn't see anything related to the heat/fan thing I mentioned. If you found something I missed, please let me know because I'm keenly interested. I'm wondering whether you read the earlier AppleNova thread(s) on this, because quite a bit of detail was given there and I didn't want to rehash all that. If it would be helpful, I could track down the thread to give you or perhaps post the summary I wrote in a thread there just to bring things up to date in this thread if that's allowed.

I'm hoping to make some controlled temp measurement experiments tomorrow in 10.2.8 and 10.4.1, and then install the combo updater and take the same measurements on that.

Again, thanks everyone for the replies.

[SantaBarbarian]

Originally Posted by onlyafterdark I havent had any problems with my 12" 867MHz either.

Now THAT is interesting to me!! The guess I came to from my prior work on this problem was that it's related to the GPU. In Apple System Profiler is your AGP (first item in the Devices and Volumes tab in 10.2.8) a NVDA GeForce4MX? If so, is it ROM 2030, Rev. a5? I'd assumed that all 867MHz machines had the same video system.

Other system details: 640M Apple Store-installed RAM (128 built-in, 512 DDR SDRAM); Bus speed 133MHz; 256K L2 cache; Machine Model PowerBook6,1 (version = 3.3); Boot ROM 4.5.5f4

I never tried a clean install because I'd heard from several people with my problem who'd unsuccessfully tried that. If you have the same video, I'm sure interested to know the history of your machine. Did you start with 10.2 and upgrade through 10.3.9 before going to Tiger?

Originally Posted by onlyafterdark find out what temp your fans come on / turn off at. Then you might have a better idea whether you have a heat / fan problem.

I don't remember now, and didn't record the readings I got. I figured whatever Apple had set it at was ok with me, because I want maximum reliability. Plus of course, with normal use in Jag it's worked just fine and in Tiger it gets too hot for my lap before the fan comes on anyway. I found the noise less an issue than the heat. As I mentioned in the earlier thread, the noise isn't extreme. Impressively quiet really, especially compared with what others have reported on their new Macs. Just that it's in my lap so it's much more noticeable. Plus it fluctuates up and down in pitch at least slightly pretty much all the time, so it's more annoying to me than a constant pitch might be.

Anyway, I'll do some experiments in the next day or two and report back. Thanks for your reply.

[SantaBarbarian]

Originally Posted by SantaBarbarian ...I'll do some experiments in the next day or two and report back. Thanks for your reply.

Frankly I'm disappointed in Apple, because I bought Tiger and iLife but won't use them much due to the heat and noise issues. For anyone just joining this thread: THANKS! Also, please read the past discussions which I'm not repeating here. In essence, yes I've tried everything obvious and I know some laptops seem to be fine with Tiger. Mine isn't even when booting from the install DVD. It's about 10 degrees Celsius hotter than in Jag. 10.2.8, and the fan comes on and goes off at a much lower temperature with the result being that it's hot AND the fan's on most of the time.

If you've read everything about this problem and have a fix, new information or even any ideas about what could be causing it, PLEASE let me know!

I'd hoped for a fix from Apple since others have reported this problem too, but given the relative lack of interest (and even disbelief) even in a helpful technical forum like this my hopes are dim. Anyway, it took a few days more than I'd hoped to get around to doing some testing, but here it is:

Temperature Monitor v.2.5 - Readings (g=GPU Topside, c=CPU Bottomside)
Measurements taken with PB12 G4 867MHz in lap on firm cushion (front 3" exposed to air).
Fan status estimated from loudness and pitch of fan noise (no readings available).

--------------------
10.2.8 booted from Internal HD
Wake from overnight sleep: g76.5f, c76.5f - ambient air temp ~74f
**Note: this measurement in Fahrenheit, others in Celsius.

Various tasks for 30 minute warmup.
Idle in Eudora(5.2.1) online (dialup) a minute or so: g38, c38

Reading news in Firefox(1.0.5): g44.5, c43.8

Dowloading w/Firefox, Eudora & Process Viewer(1.2) open, using TextEdit(1.4): g55, c59
Process Viewer CPU load: ~9% avg. (3%-25% range) at 2 sec. intervals

Dowloading w/Firefox, Classic/FM foreground (CPU max): g55, c64 - FAN ON (low speed).
Note: FM=FileMaker Pro v4.0.
Running any application in Classic seems to max CPU (~100%) in every version of OS X tested, even if Classic application is only idle in foreground. When the Classic app is background, CPU load falls to normal.

--------------------
10.4.1 started from External Firewire HD
Wake from 3 hours sleep: g82f, c82f - ambient air temp ~74f
**Note: this measurement in Fahrenheit, others in Celsius.
Running the same versions of the application mix as in the above experiment by launching them
from the Internal HD, Temperature Monitor reports an Internal HD temperature sensor reading
not present in 10.2.8, after warmup it never varied more than 1c.

Various tasks for 30 minute warmup.
Idle in Eudora online (dialup) a minute or so(CPU load: ~4%): g48, c50

Reading news in Firefox: g48.5, c52, HD43 - FAN ON (low speed)
*After 1 minute with fan on low still online but editing this file in Text Edit: g48.2, c51.5, HD44

Dowloading w/Firefox, Eudora & Process Viewer open, editing this file in TextEdit: g48.5, c52.4
Process Viewer CPU load: ~14% avg. (9%-29% range).

Dowloading w/Firefox, Classic/FM foreground (CPU max): g49.8, c58.2 - Fan on (med. hi)

Idle offline, only Temperature Monitor & Text Edit open for 5 minutes: g47, c46.7 - Fan on (med)

Idle as above for one additional minute: FAN OFF g46.8, c46.9, HD43
*Note: occasional editing of this file during two "Idle" times listed immediately above.

--------------------
10.4.2 combo updater installed (permissions verified) on same External HD and restarted.
Wake from overnight sleep: g79f, c79f, HD77f - ambient air temp ~70f
**Note: this measurement in Fahrenheit, others in Celsius.
Running the same versions of the application mix.

Various tasks for 30 minute warmup.
Idle in Eudora online (dialup) a minute or so: g45.8, c48.8

Reading news in Firefox: g49.2, c52, HD45 - FAN ON (low speed)
*After 1 minute with fan on low still online but editing this file in Text Edit: g48.8, c51.5, HD45

Dowloading w/Firefox, Classic/FM foreground (CPU max): g49.5, c58.6, HD43 - Fan on (med. hi)

Idle offline, only Temperature Monitor & Text Edit open for 5 minutes: g46.8, c47.6 - Fan on (med)

Idle as above for one additional minute: FAN OFF g46.5, c47, HD43
*Note: occasional editing of this file during two "Idle" times listed immediately above.

--------------------
Summary and Conclusion
-Upon wake from sleep, both versions of Tiger seem to run hotter relative to ambient air temperature than Jaguar 10.2.8 (~8-9f vs. 2.5f above ambient).

-The first test (idle in Eudora) shows Tiger dramatically hotter (10-12c) than 10.2.8 in light load.

-Variations in ambient temperature and other variables during testing may account for the small variations between 10.4.1 and 10.4.2 in these tests.

-The FAN ON temperature for Jaguar appears to be 64c, and for Tiger 52c at the CPU sensor.

-The FAN OFF temperature for Tiger appears to be 47c, at the CPU sensor.

*Tiger runs significantly hotter doing the same task mix, even though the fan comes on and shuts off at a significantly lower temperature. Even with very light CPU load, Tiger runs hotter. Using this early model G4 PB12 in one's lap running Tiger is not feasible, while running Jaguar it is.

Both the CPU and GPU run hotter in Tiger, though the GPU is about 2c cooler than the CPU with light load. Probably due to changes in Tiger's graphics routines, the reverse is true in Jaguar as the GPU runs slightly warmer than the CPU with light load. It seems unlikely as earlier suggested, that Tiger's heat problems are mainly due to GPU heat since both CPU and GPU run much hotter even in sleep. This heat above ambient air during sleep in Tiger over Jaguar may be related to the overall heat difference between the two versions of OS X in light load.

In addition to the greater heat, the fan comes on earlier and stays on longer in Tiger. The fan speed also varies slightly as CPU load varies, making the noise more noticeable. For anyone sensitive to noise, running Tiger on this computer is less satisfactory than running Jaguar due to the noise.

It is most unusual that some users report no heat or fan issues while running Tiger on laptops. It may be that the more sophisticated power management capabilities of some laptops helps, or it may be due to different GPU or CPU configurations.

[stevegong]

Mother of god, THIS is the mother of all thermal challenges.

I did this

does NOT work!!! wtf?? Fan still kicks in same processor temp.

Maybe it's my GPU that's hot? I think there might be something wrong with it, becausse when I scroll on a website, I hear little clicking sounds, kinda like the iPod clicker...

[atomicbartbeans]

Mine clicks inside too, although it's quiet (12" iBook G4). Seems like it's not really a function of temperature so much as time spent using computer.

[SantaBarbarian]

Originally Posted by stevegong does NOT work!!! wtf?? Fan still kicks in same processor temp.

Yeh, I've read that it doesn't work on some models (or maybe just for some unlucky people). A bit like the heat issue itself, since some say their Powerbooks run cool and quiet. I'm hesitant to admit it, but I'm secretly glad that some of you are having this problem too. Misery loves company I guess.

Originally Posted by stevegong Maybe it's my GPU that's hot?

Have you tried one of the free temperature utilities to check out your theory? I was surprised that it's clearly not the GPU in mine, and now more completely stumped as to what's going on. I mean, why would the temperatures be so high even when it's asleep?!

Originally Posted by stevegong when I scroll on a website, I hear little clicking sounds

I wonder if that's the hard drive. Doesn't seem like there'd be anything physically moving in the GPU, unless the elves are restless...

[SantaBarbarian]

Originally Posted by atomicbartbeans Seems like it's not really a function of temperature so much as time spent using computer.

In the "17 PB G4 fan on constantly after installing Tiger" thread (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=6410), Digital Dave wrote: "process CPU times don't account for this increase."

I gather from other things said in that thread, that he was talking about some possible "stealth" processes in Tiger that didn't show up in the process list. I'm now beginning to wonder if that's related to the heat problem. If the CPU load is actually higher than the low idle numbers I'm seeing (like <10%), that would explain a lot. Maybe also why the CPU's so much warmer than surrounding air even after the PB's asleep overnight.

Any techies here have ideas on how to find out everything the CPU's up to?

[dougiemac]

Alright... I've run hot before so I figured I'd jump in on this. Now typically my fans don't turn on, even around 144 F. I usually run around 120-130... sometimes when its a hot day (we don't have a/c) I run closer to 130. But when I jump to 144 it's always running VLC or WMP or Quicktime. So I'd assume it is GPU in my case. Just my experiences.

[SantaBarbarian]

Originally Posted by dougiemac I usually run around 120-130... sometimes when its a hot day (we don't have a/c) I run closer to 130.

That reminds me of something I've noticed: the ambient temperature seems to make a lot of difference in how quickly it gets hot, and how hot it gets. I haven't checked this out, but my impression is that room air of 70f has quite different impact from 78f. Maybe it's just the difference of having a lap warmer when I'm already over my optimal setting?

Originally Posted by dougiemac But when I jump to 144 it's always running VLC or WMP or Quicktime. So I'd assume it is GPU in my case. Just my experiences.

Thanks for mentioning that. I guess there's no way to find out what the GPU's up to, so we can only guess. It makes sense to me that everything would be hotter when it's working hard, and the apps you mention do seem likely to tax the whole system. What's currently puzzling me is why the thing runs so hot when idle - even asleep!

Could this be something related to Spotlight? Maybe so deep in the system it's not showing up in Activity Monitor? Is there some daemon running that the system doesn't report even in Top?

I saw a post somewhere else today about Eudora plugins preventing sleep, so I immediately checked. No plugins. Got me thinking though: why did it run hot even when I booted from the Tiger DVD? That was probably before I learned to turn off Spotlight indexing, so maybe I should run that test again...

[cmeyer42]

try downloading TinkerTools (can't remember URL, go to VersionTracker or MacUpdateFiles and search) and disable Dashboard. Just the free version though, the server version doesn't have this setting. I had heating problems that went away after doing that. I didn't use the widgets enough to live with the heat it was generating so no biggie. As with the question "why upgrade to Tiger if no Dashboard", well I'm a CS student so Java 5 and Xcode 2 were the reasons!
Hope this helps!!

[stevegong]

disabling dashboard does nothing to lower my temperature

on a pb 1.5ghz 12"

[SantaBarbarian]

Originally Posted by cmeyer42 try downloading TinkerTools (can't remember URL, go to VersionTracker or MacUpdateFiles and search) and disable Dashboard.

Thanks. Took me a minute to find, because it's actually Tinker Tool: http://www.bresink.de/osx/TinkerTool.html

I downloaded both that and the System shareware version, but am reluctant to use apps because they could introduce other variables in my sytem. So I looked to see if there's a way to turn off Dashboard manually. In fact, I'd already turned off all the widgets but maybe there's something invisible going on with the whole widget capability so I like your idea of turning it off completely. Incidentally, I gather that in 10.4.2 Apple introduced a widget manager that can turn them on/off (tho probably not the whole capability so I didn't check).

I'm also wondering if there's something invisible going on with Spotlight even tho I've disabled it by putting all my attached drives in the Privacy tab. Looks like there's a way to turn both "features" off manually, described at http://rixstep.com/2/20050528,00.html

I'm going to look for my Tiger install DVD, boot from that again, and see if the heat issue is affected. I only tried it once, and don't recall if I'd turned off Spotlight indexing (which turns on every chance it gets, which maxes the CPU instantly). Won't I be excited if Tiger is tame when started from the DVD! That might mean a clean install would work, even tho someone said they'd tried it without success. I've sure been puzzled since "onlyafterdark" with my 867MHz model of PB12 claimed to have no heat problems.

Originally Posted by cmeyer42 Hope this helps!!

You've at the very least given me something more to try. Thanks again.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by SantaBarbarian I downloaded both that and the System shareware version, but am reluctant to use apps because they could introduce other variables in my sytem.

FYI, TinkerTool doesn't add anything to the system. It is simply an interface for options that are already present in the system that just don't have a pretty, friendly GUI. Everything that TinkerTool does is doable manually by a few terminal commands.

[SantaBarbarian]

Originally Posted by Brad FYI, TinkerTool doesn't add anything to the system. It is simply an interface for options that are already present in the system that just don't have a pretty, friendly GUI. Everything that TinkerTool does is doable manually by a few terminal commands.

Thanks for the followup. That's how I understood it too. It's just that I'm cautious about downloading and running apps - guess it's a carryover from my painful past in the windoze world.

Anyway, I'm about to try starting up from the Tiger DVD again to try a few things. I'm hopeful that stuff on the hard drive won't affect the heat issue since startup volume will be DVD. Don't recall now whether I was able to run apps and utilities (temp monitor apps, for example), but hopefully I won't need to startup from my external FW drive to experiment because that would again raise the spectre of a clean install possibly helping.

Onward...

[SantaBarbarian]

OK, here's the latest.

I restarted from the Tiger DVD, and the fans came on immediately when the blue screen showed up. This surprised me since I didn't think much CPU load was going on. I remembered that phenomenon from last time I started from DVD, and that I thought it might mean there's something pretty basic about Tiger that loads up the CPU. This time tho, I discovered something new: after a while the fan shut off. Once both fan and DVD stopped my impression was that the heat was decreasing too, though I didn't wait long enough to tell for sure.

As the techies here already knew, the install DVD only gives a few options and they're all in the top menu bar. Having messed with *nix a bit, I chose Terminal since nothing else looked helpful.

I couldn't launch any Tiger apps of course, nor could I find top on the DVD, so I tried to launch the top app that's on my internal drive but it didn't go (perhaps just as well, since it's from 10.2.8). All I found on the DVD to get process info is ps, and here's what it reported:
PID TT STAT TIME COMMAND
153 p0 Ss 0:00.05 -bash
159 p0 R+ 0:00.01 ps
2 ?? Ss+ 0:00.04 sh /etc/rc
3 ?? S+ 0:00.10 /bin/sh /etc/rc.cdrom multiuser
23 ?? S+ 0:00.07 /System/Installation/CDIS/instlogd
26 ?? S+ 0:00.11 /usr/sbin/netinfod -s local
80 ?? S+ 0:00.15 /System/Library/CoreServices/pbs
85 ?? S+ 0:01.29 /System/Installation/CDIS/LCA.app/Contents/MacOS/LCA
86 ?? S+ 0:00.01 /usr/bin/logger -t -p install.warn

Looks like not much going on, but I didn't know any way to find out what CPU load is and couldn't get man ps to work. Now that I'm back in Jag it works, but man ps doesn't seem to offer anything approaching top when I look at the options. Also, ps shows far fewer processes presumably because it only shows certain types. While there's an option for CPU use, I don't see a way to have it sample for a couple of seconds so when I run it in Jag's terminal I get only zeroes for CPU because they're probably sampled only while ps has control of the CPU. Surely I'm missing something, but there you go.

In short, I learned almost nothing. Any suggestions welcome.

At this point my impression is that whatever's going on in Tiger that makes it run hotter, is beyond my ability to discover. I'll keep watching this and other discussion areas, but it now seems unlikely the heat issue will be addressed by Apple.

[SantaBarbarian]

One more:

After restarting into 10.4.2 on my external FW drive, I disabled both Dashboard and Spotlight manually using the directions on the website mentioned in my prior message. No change in the raging inferno.

I then tried unplugging my PB so it would go on energy saver settings (default) and put it to sleep, and battery power helped a little with the wake from sleep temp: ambient air 74f, gpu & cpu 80.2f. The case (including bottom where it gets hottest) was cool to the touch. Within one minute I got g110f, c112f at idle. I'm sure curious what's going on while it's asleep.

After restarting back into cool old 10.2.8 I had to tax the dickens out of it to get the fan on, because I wanted to get the FanOFF temp. I'd forgotten to do in my detailed analysis reported earlier. Looks like it's 60c at the CPU, though that's a guess because without the CPU maxed the temp fell more than a degree every 2 seconds (the Temp. Mon. refresh setting I used). The reading displayed when the fan actually shut off was 59.5c.

Looks like I'm in Jaguar for the Summer, unless anyone has more ideas.

[dougiemac]

Dude, 110F is a pretty average range for processor temp on any computer...

[SantaBarbarian]

Originally Posted by dougiemac Dude, 110F is a pretty average range for processor temp on any computer...

I'm guessing you may not have read this entire thread. If you'd like to go beyond numbers and simulate the actual experience, wait for a hot day and then heat two square cast iron pans - one to 110f, the other to 127f. Place each in your lap while working on something that involves concentration. Note any differences in your comfort level.

As described earlier in this thread, the 110f you mention is the highest normal working temp in Jaguar (downloading via dialup). It's also the temperature *idle and offline one minute after waking* from a long sleep in Tiger. The 127f is when you're downloading via dialup in Tiger. So the comparison is between 110f and 127f. Oh, and in Tiger the fan's on rather loudly or it would be much hotter.

Maybe the bottom line is that this thread is played out unless someone has a new idea, or Apple amazes me by providing a solution with 10.4.x. Most people don't seem to notice and/or talk about this issue, and some apparently don't even have it. I do have it and have sought help with a solution.

[Dave]

I'd hold off on putting a 127 degree piece of iron on your bare skin. Methinks it might get burned.

[stevegong]

SantaBarbarian, what kind of a powerbook do you have?

[dougiemac]

The processor running at 127 or 110 is one thing, but the bottom of the PB actually being 110 or 127 is nearly impossible and DOESN'T HAPPEN. Seriously, you would BURN yourself. And if your that stupid and you are continually burning yourself or your desk, TAKE IT INTO APPLE you insane moron.

[SantaBarbarian]

Originally Posted by Dave I'd hold off on putting a 127 degree piece of iron on your bare skin.

It's uncomfortable for sure! I cheat and use a pillow when running Tiger, so hopefully I haven't endangered anyone by suggesting that little experiment. Thanks for the note of caution.