[Luca]

This is new. I'm very happy that there are people willing to bring up this issue. Basically, over 100 college presidents have signed on to what they call the Amethyst Initiative, which is trying to make the drinking age a topic of national discussion and debate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26271328/

I totally agree with them. They claim (rightly so) that the drinking age of 21 has these problems:

- It's discriminatory against supposed adults who are ages 18-20 and can do everything except drink, including go to war
- It's ineffective at preventing drinking among those under 21
- It encourages unsafe drinking since drinking must be done in private, not in public, where someone else could intervene before someone goes too far
- It tramples on the rights of states to decide for themselves what their drinking age could be by unfairly tying federal transportation funds to the drinking age

[chucker]

I agree with all points except the fourth, which is utter hogwash.

*cue Kickaha*

[Luca]

Originally Posted by chucker I agree with all points except the fourth, which is utter hogwash. *cue Kickaha*

States' rights!!!!!

[psmith2.0]

I guess this makes sense, for the reasons listed.

But I can barely tolerate sober 18-year-olds, so...it could get ugly.



I see both sides of it. For all the above good reasons, I also see an increase in bar fights and wrecks because a) places currently off-limits to 18-year-olds will be open and, let's face it, a bunch of teenagers - especially if they're of the mouthy, obnoxious type - coming into certain bars and clubs is just going to be a recipe for something weird, and b) giving 18-year-olds the "right" to suddenly drink, how many of them, on top of being such a relatively inexperienced driver, are going to call a cab or otherwise "do the right thing" when they've have 7-9 beers at the sports bar? Probably very few, if any. Part of being 18 (and I've been that age so I can talk about it with some authority ) is thinking you're invincible/immortal, that nothing bad is going to happen to you, that you and your friends "rule" and can overcome all, etc.



If they do this, they'll probably have to tweak the drinking and driving laws some too, to help offset the ensuing nuttiness. Stiffer fines and penalities for driving drunk, higher insurance rates, mandatory/automatic jail sentences if you cause a wreck or injury while drunk, etc.

Don't ask people to accept "okay, 18-year-olds can now drink! Turn 'em up, boys!" without touching anything else. That's just asking for it.





We know that outright banning and prohibiting stuff doesn't work (and only makes this stuff worse), so I don't know. But yeah...if you can work, serve (and die) in the military, vote, drive a car, etc., it's silly to make drinking a beer the lone, "can't touch it until you're 21" holdout. On the other hand, what if all those other things were bumped up to 21?



Just kidding...

I think.

I don't know.

Friggin' hammered 18-year-olds. That's all we need, yeah...jeez.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Luca States' rights!!!!!

Well, I do agree that Kentuckians have less capable bodies; therefore, they shouldn't drink until they're 30. But as for anyone else?

[Luca]

pscates, in my experience, there are just as many 20-somethings who are idiots as there are 18-year-olds. Age doesn't seem to have terribly much to do with it. The idiots will gravitate to bars that attract idiots, and the classy places will continue to attract a more mature clientele. In my experience, there are plenty of mature 18-year-olds. Not many fewer than there are mature 23-year-olds. I know that going through college changes people (usually for the better), but I don't see this changing much.

[psmith2.0]

I'm not talking an "either/or", Luca. I'm talking about opening up three more years' worth of drinkers. And younger ones. That does indeed factor in a bit, to varying degrees (depending on the person, of course). It's not an absolutely, across-the-board, carved-in-stone thing, no.

But don't act like throwing the gates open to 18-20 years olds legally (and openly) drinking will have zero impact. It won't.

But "class" also doesn't dictate behavior in any sort of absolute, predictable way. I know just as many prep school and "rich kids" who've dealt with drugs, alcohol, DUIs, etc. as any lower-rent types. And I've seen just as many khaki-wearing guys and their "perfect" girlfriends stumbling out of bars and to their VWs or snazzy Jeeps as I have rednecks doing the same.



Yes, there are plenty of mature 18-year-olds. And those aren't the types I'm talking (or worrying) about either...just like I don't worry about me or other 39-year-olds who can drink responsibly, not swerve all over the place, run over mailboxes, etc.

Your more mature, responsible 18-year-olds, by their very nature, aren't going to be out drinking and driving and causing trouble, so they're not who I'm worried about. I'm thinking of the dipshits who sneak and drink now, illegally, and do dumb, stupid things in the privacy of their basement or their friend's houses, who will suddenly be moving out into the public. Those types will now have a license to go nuts.



(see my comment earlier above about fights and wrecks)



That's all. It's a legit concern. I'm not opposed to it, in theory; I'm just saying it won't be a seamless, consequence-free action. By any stretch. So people (college presidents included) should know this.

And in my experience, there's a good bit of difference between a typical 18-year-old and a 21-year-old. Three years, during that particular time, can count for quite a bit (it certainly did with me). Most go to school, where you can age pretty fast because you're on your own, you learn to deal with schedules, money, juggling work and school, maybe your first serious romance or sexual awakening, etc.. And if you don't go to school, you usually go to work and move out on your own (which can really make you grow up fast too). So yeah, I think the gulf between many 18 and 21-year-olds can be quite dramatic, in many ways. And that doesn't mean plenty of 18-year-olds can't be mature and responsible, but I'm talking overall numbers and situations here too...someone can be 18 and quite pulled-together, but without being out in the world, paying bills, working for someone full-time (or going to school and taking it seriously because you're paying for it), etc., a 21-year-old is probably going to have a slight leg-up, just in "real world" know-how and viewpoint. Not a "better than" thing, just a practical sense.

That's just natural facts and circumstances. I certainly knew "this, this and that" when I was 18. But when I was 21 or 22, I still knew all that, plus a whole hell of a lot more because...I had to. I couldn't screw around or goof through things like I could 3-4 years earlier, and that certainly helps mold you as a person and make certain things very clear.

That's why I was often so vocal in telling a few 18 or 19-year olds back at the old place to "get off my dick" about lecturing me, or trying to tell me what was what...I'll respect their opinions on "the world" much more once they've been out in it and contributed to it, seen out it can work, paid a bill or three, dealt with the government and bureaucracies, paid taxes, deal with a landlord or problem neighbors, been knocked around a bit by life, maybe deal with a betrayal or two (friend or romantically), etc. and not just parrot some stuff they've read in a book or magazine to me.

Even if I still think they're full of crap or off their rocker at 23, at least they've come by it, by then, a bit more honestly and I can respect that, and even listen to their opinions with a bit more interest, and take it all a bit more seriously. In other words, I'll take a scolding or finger-wagging from a 22-year-old old before I will from an 18-year-old, you can bet on that...and I won't apologize or back down from that statement or view. And that's no gratuitous slam on 18-year-olds, that's just how it is...

[Luca]

Well, I see this issue as being comprised of two parts.

The first one is the law itself. It's unjust for the reasons I listed in the first post. It discriminates against 18-20-year-olds who are legally adults but who still aren't trusted with alcohol for whatever reason, and infringes on the rights of states to choose for themselves. But beyond that, the practical aspects of the law don't make much sense. The age of 21 seems totally random and not based on reality. At age 21, most college students are part of the way through their junior year... how does that make sense? Once you've been in college for a couple years you can drink? Why not make it 19, to keep high school students from buying alcohol, but allowing nearly all college students access to it? Or if getting it in college is really a problem, why not raise it to 25 or something? The fact is, the current drinking age of 21 doesn't seem to be based on any concrete facts.

The second, and IMO more important component of this issue, is the cultural perception of alcohol. Yes, there will always be alcohol abusers. But if kids are taught from a fairly young age how to drink alcohol responsibly, they will be in much better shape. In a way, the drinking age isn't important, because people under it will always find ways to get it anyway. What's more important is to remove the cultural stigma against alcohol. People make such a big deal about it that of course underage kids are going to try it, and they're going to go overboard. You tell a kid not to do something, he's going to do it. So why not teach people that drinking (in moderation of course) is okay? If it wasn't such a big deal to people, it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

[Souflay123]

You know, It is one of the most discomforting and upsetting things to be treated like less of a human being because of my age. I am over 18, I have great credit, I can sell you your auto/home/heath insurance, but I cant really go to vegas and hang out with a few friends that live there are have a good time, I cant rent a car, I can buy any sort of booze, and I cant legally possess it ether. But at 18 you can sell it, and at 16 you can sell cigarettes, but at ether age you can do neither of what you are selling. The age difference causes so much discrimination, and pure stupidity. Just like here, "But I can barely tolerate sober 18-year-olds, so...it could get ugly" I am 19, I have been told before that I cannot be trusted b/c of my age because someone so young should not be doing the job that I do. I am constantly treated like a second class of human being because I have that red line across my license. Also hints why I refuse to show ID when buying something with a credit card, because the moment that they see that I am under 21 it now below them to assist me. Lowering the drinking age is not going to do very much, b/c those who drink already will continue to do so, but in a more responsible manner b/c it will not be this tabu illegal thing. It is such bullshit, you can drive, fly a plane, hold your insurance, life, and Securities(stocks/and financial planning) licenses, go to war, get married, buy a home, a car, have a credit card in your name and yet you cant have a drink legally, what ageist bullshit!

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Luca Well, I see this issue as being comprised of two parts. The first one is the law itself. It's unjust for the reasons I listed in the first post. It discriminates against 18-20-year-olds who are legally adults but who still aren't trusted with alcohol for whatever reason, and infringes on the rights of states to choose for themselves. But beyond that, the practical aspects of the law don't make much sense. The age of 21 seems totally random and not based on reality. At age 21, most college students are part of the way through their junior year... how does that make sense? Once you've been in college for a couple years you can drink? Why not make it 19, to keep high school students from buying alcohol, but allowing nearly all college students access to it? Or if getting it in college is really a problem, why not raise it to 25 or something? The fact is, the current drinking age of 21 doesn't seem to be based on any concrete facts. The second, and IMO more important component of this issue, is the cultural perception of alcohol. Yes, there will always be alcohol abusers. But if kids are taught from a fairly young age how to drink alcohol responsibly, they will be in much better shape. In a way, the drinking age isn't important, because people under it will always find ways to get it anyway. What's more important is to remove the cultural stigma against alcohol. People make such a big deal about it that of course underage kids are going to try it, and they're going to go overboard. You tell a kid not to do something, he's going to do it. So why not teach people that drinking (in moderation of course) is okay? If it wasn't such a big deal to people, it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

I agree.

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Souflay123 You know, It is one of the most discomforting and upsetting things to be treated like less of a human being because of my age. I am over 18, I have great credit, I can sell you your auto/home/heath insurance, but I cant really go to vegas and hang out with a few friends that live there are have a good time, I cant rent a car, I can buy any sort of booze, and I cant legally possess it ether. But at 18 you can sell it, and at 16 you can sell cigarettes, but at ether age you can do neither of what you are selling. The age difference causes so much discrimination, and pure stupidity. Just like here, "But I can barely tolerate sober 18-year-olds, so...it could get ugly" I am 19, I have been told before that I cannot be trusted b/c of my age because someone so young should not be doing the job that I do. I am constantly treated like a second class of human being because I have that red line across my license. Also hints why I refuse to show ID when buying something with a credit card, because the moment that they see that I am under 21 it now below them to assist me. Lowering the drinking age is not going to do very much, b/c those who drink already will continue to do so, but in a more responsible manner b/c it will not be this tabu illegal thing. It is such bullshit, you can drive, fly a plane, hold your insurance, life, and Securities(stocks/and financial planning) licenses, go to war, get married, buy a home, a car, have a credit card in your name and yet you cant have a drink legally, what ageist bullshit!

Relax and ease up a bit. It's called "life", and every one of us here went through the exact same thing. There is no fast-forward button to it all. I certainly didn't have a time machine! The stuff that used to burn me up and weigh on me, at 18 or 19, I can't even remember now (hell, I didn't even remember them when I was 21 or 22, really). It's quite fleeting and "of the moment".

You're just in that strange "middle-ground", as you say, where this set of stuff is okay, but this stuff over here isn't. Yeah, it's quite frustrating. I remember very well! But you hunker down and ride it out. We all have. In short time, it won't matter a bit to you...you'll be able to do anything, go anywhere and you'll be looked at as a bona-fide, trustworthy grown-up with not catches/hitches (and then you'll spend all your time wishing you were 17 again and didn't have "so much shit to worry about", trust me).



My "barely tolerate sober 18-year-olds" comment was said with my tongue firmly stuck in my cheek (see the smiley immediately afterwards?), so relax...I know quite a few cool, responsible and mature teenagers and I think very highly of them (some of them are even here at 'Nova). No one here is out to get you.

[Moogs]

In principle everything they're saying makes sense. If you're old enough to go vote and go to war, in theory you're old enough to decide for yourself to have a drink or not.

The PROBLEM is that the solution (or rather the question being asked) is backwards. The reality in the United States is most 18 year olds are NOT fit to cast a vote, not fit to go to war, get married or anything else like that. Most 18 year olds are quite immature and getting more so by the decade. Giving 18 year olds the right to drink will just result in more binge-drinking than before, more 15 year olds getting beer bought for them, etc. If they're going that route, better to just drop it WAY down like Europe and let parents handle the introduction to alcohol at age 14. At least that way it's in their home, they have control over what's going on the first few times, etc.

What I think is more sensible based on the average 18 year old here, and assuming we'll never be like Europe:

Driver's Permit Period: 16-18
Driver's License: 18
Eligible to Vote: 20
Eligible for Military Service: 20
Eligible to Drink: 20 (or they could go to 22, and that way collegiate institutions would have a much easier time managing that situation because virtually no one on campus would be old enough to drink other than grad students, who are unlikely candidates to be hell-raisers most of the time).

The reason collegiate professionals bring it up at all is they want to wash their hands of the underage drinking on campus thing because it's hard work. Better to just say "what the hell; let em all drink" so they don't actually have to find a solution to anything. All they care about is their reputation, period.

[psmith2.0]

That's something to consider...an 18-year-old in 2008 vs. an 18-year-old in, say, 1908. Or, if you want to get really wild, something like 1808 or 1858.



As "far along" as we are with technology and gizmos and stuff, I'm not entirely convinced today's 18-year-olds are smarter, more "responsible" or more pulled-together than 100-150 years ago. Think of the things a child had to deal with then, how fast they grew up, what was expected of them, etc. Imagine a typical farmhouse scenario in Kansas or Iowa in 1908. If you were 12 or so, you probably got up at some insane hour and helped gather eggs or milk a cow. You probably had to do a few hours of serious work and labor before the sun was even up. You went to school and you learned hard things. Facts and figures and numbers and history. You came home and worked some more (your Dad might give you a hammer and some material and have you fix a fence at the other end of the property). If you didn't get bitten by a rattlesnake or stomped by a horse, you'd come home (no TV, no video games, no Myspace, no A/C, no energy drinks, no texting, etc.) and go to bed...and do it all again.

And all that's if you were 12-14. If you were 18, you were probably well out of school and working full-time on the farm, or maybe even married and raising a kid of your own. That was more common back then, from all I've read and heard. We have it easier now, no doubt. Do we have it better?



I sometimes wonder...

The things you had to know and do back then surely made you a stronger, more practical (and thankful) person. It had to!



Now? Some kids will flip out and lose their shit if they're asked to take 40 minutes to mow the yard (on a riding mower, no less)! That's 40 minutes away from Guitar Hero or whatever...oh no! That has to translate into larger "character" issues, I would think.



I don't know. Age, maturity levels, etc. It's all a weird, moving target.

But Moogs is right. If legal drinking is happening at 18, then you gotta assume that's just going to make the other stuff trickle down. So instead of 18-year-olds hanging out in front of the corner Stop 'n' Rob, asking 21-year-olds to buy them beer, you'll probably now have 15-year-olds doing the same of the newly legal 18-year-olds.

And I know babies in France drink red wine with their dinner, and German toddlers brew their own beer for lunch , but it's different here in the States. Excess is the rule of the day, and our "role models" on TV and the Internet only reinforce that. A 15-year-old here isn't going to sip a nice wine while discussing the world his buddies. He's going to hammer back a six-pack, shoplift some cigarettes to "cap off the evening", wreck his bike riding home and puke all over his mom's foyer rug. That's how we do it here , so opening up those doors, and skootching all those numbers down even lower, kinda concerns me.

There are so many who won't do it responsibly (or who will abuse those lowered ages). Holy smokes, we're so whacked out on pills and every other thing, why would anyone think that kids wouldn't seek out booze if it was that much easier to acquire?



These college presidents better think super-extra long and hard about all this, and consider all sides and outcomes...not just the ones they dig or approve.

[709]

Originally Posted by Moogs The PROBLEM is that the solution (or rather the question being asked) is backwards. The reality in the United States is most 18 year olds are NOT fit to cast a vote, not fit to go to war, get married or anything else like that. Most 18 year olds are quite immature and getting more so by the decade. Giving 18 year olds the right to drink will just result in more binge-drinking than before, more 15 year olds getting beer bought for them, etc.

Word.

Having owned a bar at one point in my life I got to see firsthand what a bunch of fucking idiots most "first-time" drinkers are. Loud, don't know their limit assholes, the lot. Given that the state of stupidity in this country seems to be infecting younger and younger minds, mixing that with the false sense of entitlement most of these "young adults" have would be a recipe for disaster, imo.

[Luca]

I think you guys are stereotyping, a lot. You can't say that all 18-year-olds are unfit to do this or that. There are some 16-year-olds who are a lot more mature and intelligent than some people twice their age. How can you generalize so much based on age? Moogs, pscates, 709... you sound like cranky old men who want to get back at young 'uns for being annoying.

The problem with that mentality is that, especially ages 18-20, if you push these kids, they'll push back. There are a lot of smart, idealistic people at that age who aren't so jaded as to think that restricting freedoms is a good thing. They're convinced that they are prepared to take on the world, and I think they're right. Older people hate on young people way too much, and it does nothing to help the situation.

For once, I think it's time we give personal responsibility a chance. Change the drinking age to 18 (while we're at it, change the handgun-owning age to 18 as well) and let young people make their own decisions. It's this patronizing attitude toward 18-20-year-olds that causes much of this immature behavior.

[psmith2.0]

Yeah. I think that's very true and very real. I swear we're meaner and dumber, as a society, than even just two decades ago. And the distractions (texting, etc.) and other vices (prescription meds) that are so prevalent now among teens (vs. 10-20 years ago), I can't see how adding booze to that could result in anything too good.

Yes, I understand the reasons and thinking behind it (from Luca's opening post), but my gut tells me "uh-oh". And 709 says, in just four lines, what my biggest fear is...

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Luca I think you guys are stereotyping, a lot. You can't say that all 18-year-olds are unfit to do this or that. There are some 16-year-olds who are a lot more mature and intelligent than some people twice their age. How can you generalize so much based on age? Moogs, pscates, 709... you sound like cranky old men who want to get back at young 'uns for being annoying.

Yeah, that's all it is. It's not ~40 years of experience and observation and learning and seeing and watching. Or going through all this stuff ourselves, firsthand, and speaking from (sometimes) iffy, painful personal experience. Or being somewhat pragmatic about some very real "what ifs". No, we're just opting to be cranky old farts for yuk-yuks and to pass the time.



If we're that, then you're at the other end of the spectrum and coming off like some Who song, where youth can "do no wrong", and anyone over 25 is a dipstick.

Originally Posted by Luca The problem with that mentality is that, especially ages 18-20, if you push these kids, they'll push back. There are a lot of smart, idealistic people at that age who aren't so jaded as to think that restricting freedoms is a good thing. They're convinced that they are prepared to take on the world, and I think they're right. Older people hate on young people way too much, and it does nothing to help the situation.

There's no "hating" at play here, Luca. Jeez.

Damn, it's like talking with a you-know-who supporter*. No matter how you say something, or what sort of legitimate concerns/questions you might raise, the person doing the asking or having the concerns is always painted as "the problem", or as though they have iffy, questionable motivations in their heart.



It's not like that at all.

* Before anyone brings it up, that is NO slam or ding or "political" jab whatsoever; I'm merely trying to think of a situation where being on the other side of a popular (to some) view instantly puts you on the run/defensive...that's the best example I could think of. It's NO reflection on anyone's beliefs, leanings or the Senator himself. Okay? Are we all crystal clear on this?

Originally Posted by Luca For once, I think it's time we give personal responsibility a chance. Change the drinking age to 18 (while we're at it, change the handgun-owning age to 18 as well) and let young people make their own decisions. It's this patronizing attitude toward 18-20-year-olds that causes much of this immature behavior.

Oh really?

You just completely lost me on this. Your opening post was dead-on, now you're just out-to-lunch.

What makes this current crop of 18-year-olds so perfect and special that everything should automatically be re-done and adjusted for them? This stuff cycles around, and we all pass through it. What elevates one set of years about the others? I'm genuinely asking.

[Luca]

Here's my take on your concerns, pscates:

...dumber, as a society, than even just two decades ago.

This is a common sign that you are getting older and wiser. The world hasn't gotten any dumber, you've just gotten smarter.

And the distractions (texting, etc.) and other vices (prescription meds) that are so prevalent now among teens (vs. 10-20 years ago)

20 years ago everyone was talking about how TV would rot our children's brains. 40 years ago, it was rock music. 60 years ago it was... I don't know, the jitterbug? As for prescription meds, that's more symptomatic of society in general, not just young people. Parents are going out of their way to get antidepressants for their angsty teens (back in the day, you would have been told to just get over it, since everyone has problems during those years, and it usually worked out). And don't forget the amount of drug abuse that went on in the 60s and 70s. Nothing has really changed in that regard.

EDIT: My overall point, pscates, isn't that old people are mean and young people are perfect. It's basically that I don't think older people give young people enough of a chance. And I agree that young kids do a bunch of dumb stuff, but they need to learn. Give them some more personal responsibility (something sorely lacking in most people) while they're still in a safe, controlled environment (at home or at school) so they can learn to be productive members of society, rather than simply protecting them from everything that you don't think they're prepared to handle.

[rasmits]

I'm sorry but I can't help but feel like anyone who says, "And the distractions (texting, etc.) and other vices (prescription meds) that are so prevalent now among teens (vs. 10-20 years ago), I can't see how adding booze to that could result in anything too good" is seriously out of touch with how young people think and opperate. Maybe it's just been a while for you, but that just doesn't make any sense.

edit: Luca explained himself much better than I did about that.

The problem is, we have 70 year old politicians making laws to govern "the youth" of society based on what they think is best. People need to realise an 18 year old is legally no longer a part of "the youth of society". It blows my mind that the US government would allow an 18 year old to buy a house and go to war but not have a beer - and people actually agree with this.

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Luca Here's my take on your concerns, pscates: This is a common sign that you are getting older and wiser. The world hasn't gotten any dumber, you've just gotten smarter. 20 years ago everyone was talking about how TV would rot our children's brains. 40 years ago, it was rock music. 60 years ago it was... I don't know, the jitterbug? As for prescription meds, that's more symptomatic of society in general, not just young people. Parents are going out of their way to get antidepressants for their angsty teens (back in the day, you would have been told to just get over it, since everyone has problems during those years, and it usually worked out). And don't forget the amount of drug abuse that went on in the 60s and 70s. Nothing has really changed in that regard. EDIT: My overall point, pscates, isn't that old people are mean and young people are perfect. It's basically that I don't think older people give young people enough of a chance. And I agree that young kids do a bunch of dumb stuff, but they need to learn. Give them some more personal responsibility (something sorely lacking in most people) while they're still in a safe, controlled environment (at home or at school) so they can learn to be productive members of society, rather than simply protecting them from everything that you don't think they're prepared to handle.

Fair enough. I appreciate your reasoned answer.

Originally Posted by rasmits I'm sorry but I can't help but feel like anyone who says, "And the distractions (texting, etc.) and other vices (prescription meds) that are so prevalent now among teens (vs. 10-20 years ago), I can't see how adding booze to that could result in anything too good" is seriously out of touch with how young people think and opperate. Maybe it's just been a while for you, but that just doesn't make any sense.

First, it's "operate". You kids with your damn spell-check...I'm kidding! It's a joke!

Secondly, if it "doesn't make any sense" to you, then I'm guessing we're at the opposite ends of it all, because I can't grasp how someone couldn't look around and easily see that there are indeed a couple of factors in place that weren't 10, 20 or 30 years ago and add them to the mix.

You might be confused and thinking that I'm dinging "texting" or something, in and of itself. I'm not. I mention that only as a "distraction" that is there. Something that people are doing, many of them in their car (we're not even going to argue/debate that because a) it's true, and b) we've all seen it). So it's adding something (booze) to an already dangerous activity that some (not all) are engaging in. That's all I meant.

I never made some sort of "text messagers are young and stupid and shouldn't drink!" statement (that doesn't even make sense). I'm talking strictly in terms of distractions and the things many people are doing while driving (but let's face it: texting is a youth/teen-heavy activity...again, not much room to argue there). I don't see most adults zipping down the highway, cell phone in one hand, texting. Sorry if that's offensive or weird to point out, but I don't think it is (most adults tend to talk on the phone and nearly kill me in that manner, so I'm not giving them a pass either).



And the only people who say silly stuff like "I can text and drive with no problem" are the ones foolishly doing it all the time, as a habit, and they will one day realize a) it's nothing to brag about, and b) it's going to come back to bite them at some point.

Call me an "old fart" for saying that, but I don't care. Anyone with any sense should know better...it's a distraction. Just like talking on the phone, drinking a drink, eating a burger, reading the paper, fooling with the radio, applying makeup, shaving, daydreaming, etc. We all do them, some more than others. Some are more dangerous than others. But right now, summer of 2008, I'm seeing a lot of young people zipping around me while text messaging. Or cutting through parking lots and barely missing me, while doing the same. Some might do it "better than others", but, again, I don't think that's a very boast-worthy thing.

On the "prescription medication" front, are you going to say that's not a situation that is drastically different than 20 or so years ago? Have you not watched TV in about 10 or so years? I only know a handful of people who aren't on anything (legally or otherwise). So yeah, I think that can factor in and play a role in stuff and be viewed as a legitimate thing to discuss. Some people - including teens - seek out and abuse that stuff. But since we're not talking about "all ages" here, I'm, naturally, focusing on the 18-year-old element, as that's tied to Luca's opening post and entire thread.

Make no mistake: I'm not bonkers about all of society leaning on pills for every little ailment, real or otherwise. But this thread is about teens and so forth, so that's where that angle points.

I don't know what is so "off the charts" or unspeakable about either of those things.

Originally Posted by rasmits The problem is, we have 70 year old politicians making laws to govern "the youth" of society based on what they think is best. People need to realise an 18 year old is legally no longer a part of "the youth of society". It blows my mind that the US government would allow an 18 year old to buy a house and go to war but not have a beer - and people actually agree with this.

Well, that's what this thread is about. It'll get debated and it may come to be if the push and demand is there. Isn't that how this sort of thing usually works?

If this is something you're truly passionate about and believe in - and it sounds like you are - quit barking at me about it and go call or write your elected representatives and let them know what you think about it all. They're the ones who can bring about this change you seek, not me. Listening to you and doing the things you want is their job, not mine.



To my utter shock, I sent a litter to a county representative once and actually heard back (and something moved forward a bit). I couldn't believe it! Still can't!

"Holy crap, they listen!"

[Sauvblanc]

I have no problem with the age limit being lowered to 18 in the sense of being allowed to buy booze.

But what I *would* like to see is more of a cultural shift towards what the Europeans do. As 'Scates hinted, alcohol is a huge part of the culture there. The net effect is that it demystifies alcohol and makes it less of a taboo thing. It's just seen as part of life, you learn that a good glass of wine is a great way to enhance a meal or is a nice way to unwind after a hard day at work and gives you something to socialize with others over. If you get a little tipsy because you've had too much, no biggie. So by the time you can legally buy your own booze the mystique has gone out of it. But there's no real sense of peer pressure to drink or drinking for the sake of getting drunk, as it is here in the young 'uns.

In order for this to happen the collective puckered American sphincter and anal-retentiveness attitude towards booze would need to relax a little bit. But if we grown ups can't even order a beer with our burger at the local restaurant without someone getting all huffy about it, there's no chance any of this stuff is gonna change.

[rasmits]

Originally Posted by Sauvblanc I have no problem with the age limit being lowered to 18 in the sense of being allowed to buy booze. But what I *would* like to see is more of a cultural shift towards what the Europeans do. As 'Scates hinted, alcohol is a huge part of the culture there. The net effect is that it demystifies alcohol and makes it less of a taboo thing. It's just seen as part of life, you learn that a good glass of wine is a great way to enhance a meal or is a nice way to unwind after a hard day at work and gives you something to socialize with others over. If you get a little tipsy because you've had too much, no biggie. So by the time you can legally buy your own booze the mystique has gone out of it. But there's no real sense of peer pressure to drink or drinking for the sake of getting drunk, as it is here in the young 'uns. In order for this to happen the collective puckered American sphincter and anal-retentiveness attitude towards booze would need to relax a little bit. But if we grown ups can't even order a beer with our burger at the local restaurant without someone getting all huffy about it, there's no chance any of this stuff is gonna change.

Just like sex. Americans have to hide the sight of tittes from all their kids as if they should all be ashamed to see them... Then the kids turn 16 and go on wild sex rampages - hiding it from their parents.

Conservativism is the result of these 16 year olds growing up and trying to save the next generation from their "mistakes" by banning it all.

[faramirtook]

I happen to think this boils down to mostly a psychological issue in the underage binge drinking caption of this debate. Alcohol is forbidden fruit. If the age to be served wine or beer in one's home or in a restaurant with guardians present were tuned down to around ~15, to buy wine/beer on one's own to about ~17, and to buy hard liquor to ~18, I think that a lot of the binge drinking issues would be reduced because kids would be eased into drinking.

It just wouldn't be as big of a deal with less of a "rite of passage" or "forbidden fruit" stigma. Stupid people will always but always do stupid things. I'm 17. I could get as much booze as I could afford from any of my 21+ friends, invite a couple guys my own age over, and we could all break our heads on the side of my pool after drinking a 30-pack and a handle of rum. If the drinking age were 21, 18, 17, 4π, or e, I could still get that booze to get completely smashed with. But I'd wager I'd want to get completely smashed more if it were illegal for me to do so. In a way, it's like skinnydipping in the town pool after dark or going in the "do not enter" door.

Edit: Sauvblanc is much more eloquent and a faster typer than I am. He's exactly right.

[Souflay123]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Relax and ease up a bit. It's called "life", and every one of us here went through the exact same thing. There is no fast-forward button to it all. I certainly didn't have a time machine! The stuff that used to burn me up and weigh on me, at 18 or 19, I can't even remember now (hell, I didn't even remember them when I was 21 or 22, really). It's quite fleeting and "of the moment". You're just in that strange "middle-ground", as you say, where this set of stuff is okay, but this stuff over here isn't. Yeah, it's quite frustrating. I remember very well! But you hunker down and ride it out. We all have. In short time, it won't matter a bit to you...you'll be able to do anything, go anywhere and you'll be looked at as a bona-fide, trustworthy grown-up with not catches/hitches (and then you'll spend all your time wishing you were 17 again and didn't have "so much shit to worry about", trust me). My "barely tolerate sober 18-year-olds" comment was said with my tongue firmly stuck in my cheek (see the smiley immediately afterwards?), so relax...I know quite a few cool, responsible and mature teenagers and I think very highly of them (some of them are even here at 'Nova). No one here is out to get you.

I am not speaking of the apple nova people, you all are very nice , what I am referring to is when I go out and go shopping, or want to go to a friends birthday but am not allowed b/c I am under age (not going and planning on drinking, but just going out) going to hang out in vegas, not to gamble or drink, but just relax with friends who are going in to the casino, or go out at night and I get left in the room b/c I am not allowed. When I was in MO my friends wanted to go to boats and I was left in the car to go find a spa (that did not really exist in that city) b/c I was not allowed on b/c of age restrictions. And is not just being left behind b/c I am not allowed, it is that I am treated differently when I was renting an apartment, and it has actually cost me money b/c when my potential customer found out my age they were uncomfortable working with someone under 21. And by quoting you I was not trying to say that you are after me, I was referencing the general ideas of society that if you are under 21, or 25 that you are a stupid, immature, moronic, drama queen, that watches The Hills and twirl's her hair when gossiping on her pink crystal encrusted flip phone. And yes, there are a ton of really stupid young people out there, who do really stupid things. But I hate to break it to you, there are just as many or more really stupid 30/40/50/60/70/&80 year olds who also do really stupid things

[Luca]

Getting to your sex example and the tendency for parents to be overprotective of their children... there's a reason why Germany has outlawed home schooling. They want their youth to be prepared for the world when they are thrust out into it, not confused and afraid.

[Sauvblanc]

Originally Posted by Souflay123 But I hate to break it to you, there are just as many or more really stupid 30/40/50/60/70/&80 year olds who also do really stupid things

Amen. One only needs to spend 10 minutes driving around LA to see the truth in that comment.

[Souflay123]

Originally Posted by Sauvblanc I have no problem with the age limit being lowered to 18 in the sense of being allowed to buy booze. But what I *would* like to see is more of a cultural shift towards what the Europeans do. As 'Scates hinted, alcohol is a huge part of the culture there. The net effect is that it demystifies alcohol and makes it less of a taboo thing. It's just seen as part of life, you learn that a good glass of wine is a great way to enhance a meal or is a nice way to unwind after a hard day at work and gives you something to socialize with others over. If you get a little tipsy because you've had too much, no biggie. So by the time you can legally buy your own booze the mystique has gone out of it. But there's no real sense of peer pressure to drink or drinking for the sake of getting drunk, as it is here in the young 'uns. In order for this to happen the collective puckered American sphincter and anal-retentiveness attitude towards booze would need to relax a little bit. But if we grown ups can't even order a beer with our burger at the local restaurant without someone getting all huffy about it, there's no chance any of this stuff is gonna change.

Originally Posted by Sauvblanc Amen. One only needs to spend 10 minutes driving around LA to see the truth in that comment.

(and sell insurance )


here! here!

[Naderfan]

Well, you know, if the binge drinking just shifted down to 14-15 year olds, that would solve a problem with drinking and driving, no?

But in all seriousness, I think overall this is a good idea. I think in the first few years of changing the law, you'd have a lot of problems with 18-20 yrs old who suddenly find out they can legally start drinking and go nuts. But I think it's also kind of comparable to people who turn 21 and then go bar hopping all night and nearly (and sometimes do) kill themselves via alcohol. After things settle down, I think it would be a better position.

One of the key reasons I've read for college presidents wanting to do this is right now, they're caught in a really hard place. They KNOW underage drinking is happening and will happen regardless of the rules, policies, etc. Even if they become the toughest enforcers ever imagined, kids will still be drinking. However, since it's illegal, these administrators can't have an educated, reasonable discussion with students about drinking and the risks. Most will still talk about support services on campus for students who have had too much or general safety things, but that's it.

I also have my doubts on the trickle-down theory. The big difference between 18-20 yr olds and the 14-17 crowd is that most 18-20'ers are going to be away from home - college, living in their own apartments, whatever. The vast majority of the high school crowd is still living with their parents. Now, obviously, this depends on the parents, but I would think that as a general rule of thumb, it's much harder to be binge drinking every weekend when you're still living at home than when you're living in a dorm (or, even worse, a frat or sorority house.)

At any rate, it would at least be good to have this discussion go somewhere, rather than being killed on the spot by MADD.

[psmith2.0]

I agree with the previous posts. We've made some things so "untouchable" or taboo (and beyond discussion or honest talk) that all we've done is made it like a magnet to anyone who is halfway curious.

Here's a bit of a personal tidbit to this: in junior high and high school, all my friends had very strict, "NO! NO! NO!" parents. All of them. Guess what all my friends did, every single chance they go? Smoke, drank, at least one unplanned pregnancy that I know of, etc.

My parents, being a bit younger (they had me at 17 and 18) weren't that way at all. They're weren't all-out ultra-permissive hippies by any stretch, but there was always beer and wine in the house, Jackson Browne and Marvin Gaye on the record player (no Lawrence Welk or Mitch Miller), Playboys in the closet, Pryor albums on the shelf (not even hidden from me, and I got into all of them).

I remember, to this day, my Dad coming to me at around 13 or so and basically saying "Listen...we're not going to preach at you about what we don't want you doing, because you'll just do it more. Just promise us that you'll be smart and think things through. If you want to know what something is like - pot, liquor, etc. - we can make that happen, and we're not going to think you're a bad person...just don't be out doing stupid, dangerous stuff with people you don't really know or trust. Have fun, but think beyond the moment, okay?"



Words to that effect. My Mom was right there, echoing it all.

Instantly, all the mystery and allure of this stuff ceased to exist. It was just "stuff". I knew I wasn't going to get killed or shipped off to military school if I smoked a joint or drank something. But, honestly, the appeal wasn't there. Now I realize that could've gone the other way and I could've gone absolutely bonkers and turned into a little Keith Richards. But, for whatever reason, I didn't. It was years before I drank and did other things. I was a "late bloomer", but even then it wasn't a huge thing. Maybe I passed it all by. But I also made it through high school unscathed...no VD, no knocked-up girlfriend, no trips to rehab, no expulsions or trips to juvenile court, etc. I did things, definitely. But I was very smart and mature about it. Their words truly stuck with me, and I always did "think beyond the moment" (hell, I still do in many things). I had a tight little circle of trusted friends and I did a few things, but in a controlled, "we're not going anywhere" type of environment, the few times I opted to partake.

A few months after the above talk, my Dad and I were alone one Saturday and that's when I received the other "talk" (but having years of access to Playboy, their "Joy of Sex" book and about five Richard Pryor and Redd Foxx albums, I pretty knew most of it already, but I certainly played dumb and humored him because he was doing his job). But it had the same effect (see, they knew what they were doing after all!)...I was always very smart, safe and "looked beyond the moment" in anything I did (and I have no 24-year-old kid to show for it).



There's a lot to be said for parents doing their job to both lay down boundaries and guidelines (with the expectation that you don't completely blow them off), but who also don't make a bottle of beer or a joint seem like the Lost Ark of the Covenant, you know? I didn't spend my teen years needlessly putting myself at risk to "discover" this stuff because they didn't make it some huge deal or untouchable, out-of-bounds thing. They were always super-open about drugs, alcohol, sex, etc.

I'm forever grateful for that approach, and I talked about this recently with my dad and he remembered it too.

Truth is, I was such a "late bloomer" that it wasn't until after my divorce, and I spent a year-long "lost weekend" in Nashville (1997-1998) where I pretty much did everything. I can honestly say, at 39, I'm not curious about much. Did it, got the T-shirt, etc. Realized it just wasn't "me", and so it was never a problem, any of that stuff. Could've been, but by then I was my own person and I didn't need to impress or dazzle anyone. I just spent a year getting it all out of my system, I guess...bottle in one hand, bong in the other, someone slinked across my bed, etc. I was like Peter O'Toole and Nikki Sixx, all wrapped up into one.



But that was then, this is now. I'm an angel. *ding* (but I got to see how a demon lived for a while)

But yeah...our "attitudes" about so much of this stuff needs to be rethought because I think it creates problems (and temptations) where none might exist otherwise. It's a fine line and balancing act, tailored and tweaked for each person or family involved. But just making stuff "off limits" or "we don't discuss that in this family" is no real answer or solution.



Sadly, that's all some kids and teens know, so can you blame them for going out and doing everything they can, every time they get the opportunity? You make something a "forbidden fruit" to a teenager, they're just going to do it twice (and then once more for good measure, and take pics of it with their cell phone).

[Naderfan]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 I agree with the previous posts. We've made some things so "untouchable" or taboo (and beyond discussion or honest talk) that all we've done is made it like a magnet to anyone who is halfway curious. Here's a bit of a personal tidbit to this: in junior high and high school, all my friends had very strict, "NO! NO! NO!" parents. All of them. Guess what all my friends did, every single chance they go? Smoke, drank, at least one unplanned pregnancy that I know of, etc. My parents, being a bit younger (they had me at 17 and 18) weren't that way at all. They're weren't all-out ultra-permissive hippies by any stretch, but there was always beer and wine in the house, Jackson Browne and Marvin Gaye on the record player (no Lawrence Welk or Mitch Miller), Playboys in the closet, Pryor albums on the shelf (not even hidden from me, and I got into all of them). I remember, to this day, my Dad coming to me at around 13 or so and basically saying "Listen...we're not going to preach at you about what we don't want you doing, because you'll just do it more. Just promise us that you'll be smart and think things through. If you want to know what something is like - pot, liquor, etc. - we can make that happen, and we're not going to think you're a bad person...just don't be out doing stupid, dangerous stuff with people you don't really know or trust. Have fun, but think beyond the moment, okay?"

My dad gave me the same type of talk when I was 14. Basically, he said that I was getting to the age where he and my mom couldn't tell me what to do anymore, they just had to hope and trust they'd instilled good values/judgement and hope for the best. he told me that if I wanted to drink or whatever, that was certainly my choice, but that I also needed to keep in mind that there are consequences for every action. A few years later, when he was driving me to college for the first time, we had a long talk about drinking with him basically giving me advice (things like, "since you're smaller and a girl, you'll feel the effects of alcohol a lot sooner than guys," "don't drink till you're sick" "always have your drink with you, never leave it unattended" etc.) And frankly, I never really had an urge to drink. I always played designated driver or just had a small glass of something that I carried around to make it look like I was drinking rather than get harassed about it. Once I turned 21, I started drinking more regularly and having fun, but yeah, I never was out binging with my friends and I credit a lot of that to my parents' attitudes.