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The battle over App Stores begins.


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The battle over App Stores begins.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
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2020-08-13, 14:51

So today I was so happy to share with my kids that they can now get more V-bucks for their money if they don't buy through the iOS App Store. Epic has been pretty in your face about the fact that they will allow users to buy from them directly to cut out Apple.

Now, about four hours later, Apple pulled Fortnite from the App Store.

In a similar push for changes in Apple's handling of their store, Microsoft is not able to release Project xCloud for iOS/iPad OS at launch.

Preceding this are major pushes to label Apple and Google's stores as antitrust violators.

This ought to be a good show in one way or another.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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turtle
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Formerly turtle2472
 
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2020-08-13, 15:27

Shock of all shocks, Epic is suing Apple for removing Fortnite from the App Store.
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kscherer
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2020-08-13, 15:55

When is Epic going to start letting 3rd-parties sell their wares within Fortnite?

Generation Tantrum is at it again.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
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2020-08-13, 15:57

I would agree. It is also more about the money. Notice that when Epic makes the discount for their V-bucks it isn't 30% off but rather 20%? It would have been more convincing if they discounted it by the amount Apple takes off the top.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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kscherer
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2020-08-13, 16:27

This is about Epic wanting to pay nothing. And about them demanding that the government be the ones to set App Store rules, rather than the company that invests the time and effort to make the iPhone a possibility.

These clowns threw a fit back when the iPhone first launched because there was no development platform for them to take advantage of. Then when Apple did launch the App Store and announced they were "only" charging 30%, there was celebration galore because the average cost to developers at the time was closer to 70% with all of the retail contracts, packaging, marketing, etc. Now that the honeymoon has worn off, they want everything for free. They have decided it is their "right" to use Apple's work for their own advantage.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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Last edited by kscherer : 2020-08-13 at 16:41.
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PB PM
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2020-08-13, 16:57

As if the anti-competitive cases against Apple for the app store didn't have enough firepower already, this will just push them over the edge. Careful Apple, you might find yourself getting split up like MS did back in the day!
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kscherer
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2020-08-13, 18:05

Microsoft had monopoly power over an entire industry. Apple does not. Apple only have a "monopoly" over their own products (in which they are a minority player).

While it is true that the App Store holds a "monopoly" within the ecosystem, it will be interesting to see how that plays out in the courts. If the App Store is a monopoly, then so would be Epic's "monopoly" over the resale of power-ups within their own ecosystem (Fortnite). Should Apple be forced to open up the iPhone to other stores, then so should Epic be forced to open up Fortnite to 3rd-party power-up stores.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
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2020-08-13, 20:55

I explained this whole situation to my kids (who are horrified that Apple did this to them. ) Almost exactly how you laid it out Ken. Now they understand and are still annoyed, but only because they will have to play the game on the Xbox only.

Google stepped in line with Apple and booted them from their store too.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-08-13, 21:32

Apple does some weird stuff when it comes to apps like when iOS gains a feature an app offered before the OS had it is now removed from the store for breaking guidelines. I can see and think Apple deserves getting smacked for something like that.

But I am having a hard time seeing the issue of Apple wanting a cut for using the infrastructure they provide.

giggity
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PB PM
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2020-08-14, 07:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Microsoft had monopoly power over an entire industry. Apple does not. Apple only have a "monopoly" over their own products (in which they are a minority player).

While it is true that the App Store holds a "monopoly" within the ecosystem, it will be interesting to see how that plays out in the courts. If the App Store is a monopoly, then so would be Epic's "monopoly" over the resale of power-ups within their own ecosystem (Fortnite). Should Apple be forced to open up the iPhone to other stores, then so should Epic be forced to open up Fortnite to 3rd-party power-up stores.
I cannot say I feel bad for Epic, or EA or any of the others who want to take 100% of the pie. Some of the choices Apple has made, like booting third party apps that have better versions of included features, does not sit well with me though.

Apple already lost the case in Russia, no shocker there, but I suspect the cases in the EU will go the same way. In the US, chances are 50/50 either way, depends on the judges.

I for one don’t really care, haven’t paid for anything through the App Store in years. Haven’t installed a new app I years either, most of it’s crap anyway.
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Ryan
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2020-08-14, 08:47

I haven't followed the Epic case so I don't know the details.

I do think Apple has been far too heavy-handed in some of their App Store rules. Requiring a cut for app purchases or IAP using their infrastructure is fine, but it's ridiculous to demand a cut when the developer brings their own payment infrastructure or is selling something that's "more" than just an IAP (eg Kindle books).
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turtle
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Formerly turtle2472
 
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2020-08-14, 09:12

The problem with allowing outside payment methods is that now a company can put up a major app for free in the store and allow Apple to eat the infrastructure costs. The developer of that app then allows payments/subscriptions to be made without going through Apple. Who's paying for the infrastructure of that app within Apple's system?

Basically it means Apple is supposed to give developers a free ride and get nothing in return.

I'm not saying the way it is now is "right", but Apple being expected to host/distribute an app that Apple didn't develop for free is nothing more than being an entitled, whiny chump.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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kscherer
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2020-08-14, 10:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
I'm not saying the way it is now is "right", but Apple being expected to host/distribute an app that Apple didn't develop for free is nothing more than being an entitled, whiny chump.
Exactly. And that it's coming from a multi-billion-dollar selling app is just about as self-righteous a stance as it gets.
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Ryan
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2020-08-14, 17:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
The problem with allowing outside payment methods is that now a company can put up a major app for free in the store and allow Apple to eat the infrastructure costs. The developer of that app then allows payments/subscriptions to be made without going through Apple. Who's paying for the infrastructure of that app within Apple's system?

Basically it means Apple is supposed to give developers a free ride and get nothing in return.

I'm not saying the way it is now is "right", but Apple being expected to host/distribute an app that Apple didn't develop for free is nothing more than being an entitled, whiny chump.
What about a paid subscription app where the bulk of the functionality is on the developer's infrastructure?

I use a cloud-based budgeting app called You Need A Budget. They have an iOS app but also a website. If I buy my subscription through their app, should YNAB have to pay 30% of my subscription to Apple when the complexity is all on YNAB's end?
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kscherer
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2020-08-14, 17:48

If Apple gives too much ground on this, then the only apps will be "free" apps with loads of in-app purchases. Not only will it be more expensive for us, but the App Store will just dissolve because Apple will have no financial incentive to continue. Then we will be back to the old Palm Pilot method of expensive, crappy apps.

I prefer that Apple stick to their guns and developers admit that the App Store represents a cost of doing business, just like having to pay rent for a retail space.

These guys are demanding that a land developer spend the time and money to develop a mall, and then offer up free rent for all of the tenants. Yeah, that will work.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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Ryan
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2020-08-14, 18:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
If Apple gives too much ground on this, then the only apps will be "free" apps with loads of in-app purchases. Not only will it be more expensive for us, but the App Store will just dissolve because Apple will have no financial incentive to continue. Then we will be back to the old Palm Pilot method of expensive, crappy apps.

I prefer that Apple stick to their guns and developers admit that the App Store represents a cost of doing business, just like having to pay rent for a retail space.

These guys are demanding that a land developer spend the time and money to develop a mall, and then offer up free rent for all of the tenants. Yeah, that will work.
It's a two-way street though. Without app developers, Apple's ecosystem loses value.
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Ebby
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2020-08-15, 05:36

As much as I think this is a monopoly pushing around the little guys, I'm inclined to side with apple on this. But instead of taking a sneaky 30%, add the store fee to customers receipt as an additional line item. Its more transparent and fair to developers and customers can vote with their wallets.

But I still remember the days when apps were web based, native ones banned and the only app store had to be installed via jailbreak. Apple was not first, but adding a second store is a vector for all sorts of nefarious code and, monopoly aside, a company touting security and privacy can't allow that.

^^ One more quality post from the desk of Ebby. ^^
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
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2020-08-17, 14:42

Looks like Apple's going for the throat on this one. They are (according to Epic) pull their developer accounts for iOS and Mac. This apparently will effect Epic's Unreal Engine business too. I guess epic didn't think about that before they decided to try to strong arm Apple into being compliant with their business desires.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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bassplayinMacFiend
Banging the Bottom End
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2020-08-17, 15:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
The problem with allowing outside payment methods is that now a company can put up a major app for free in the store and allow Apple to eat the infrastructure costs. The developer of that app then allows payments/subscriptions to be made without going through Apple. Who's paying for the infrastructure of that app within Apple's system?

Basically it means Apple is supposed to give developers a free ride and get nothing in return.

I'm not saying the way it is now is "right", but Apple being expected to host/distribute an app that Apple didn't develop for free is nothing more than being an entitled, whiny chump.
I’m sure Epic would be more than happy to host the fortnite iOS app on their own store, but that isn’t exactly possible now is it.

At some point, phones need to be recognized as portable computers. Other non-phone portable computers can load software from anywhere the user desires. I think this will happen with phones at some point, and this case could be a catalyst for that.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
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2020-08-17, 16:38

Probably. Gonna create a lot of security issues for phone users, too. As if there aren't already enough.

Oh, and then people are going to sue Apple for failing to protect them.

Personally, I think this is more about Epic seeking to harvest data from their user's, because there is significantly more money in doing that than there is in selling a silly game (witness Facebook and Google, who make their trillion-dollar companies by harvesting user information). As of right now, harvesting data is restricted by Apple—and by extension—the user. Side-loading is going to give developers a lot of get-around power, especially if the court's make the stupid and uneducated claim that Apple must offer full access to all of the phone's features to side-loaded apps.

[Some] developers are making the claim that this is all about "consumer choice", but it's not. That's the smoke-and-mirrors ploy. Epic doesn't give a rat's ass about consumers, and a decision in Epic's favor is going to be very bad for consumers in a lot of ways. Very bad indeed.

Also, Epic has no intention of passing the savings on to consumers. They're going to charge the same (because they can—their customers are addicts), and then claim they have to in order to cover all of the distribution costs associated with the project.



The court's duty in this case is to enforce contractual agreements, into which Epic entered. Those contracts are legal and binding. If the court's determine to undermine that contractual agreement, then they will be setting a terrible case of precedence that will have long-ranging and disastrous effects.

And, "developers and consumers don't have a choice!" is the lamest argument in history. All Epic has to do is go Android-only. There, see how that worked? They exercised their choice. Now they can side-load, their addicted customers can "choose" to buy Android instead of iPhone, and … Apple won't even feel a dent because people don't buy iPhones for Fortnite. They buy iPhones because iPhones fit their needs, and then they indulge in the available stew of apps for the platform they have chosen. And then, if Fortnite isn't available on iPhone, well, that's Epic's choice!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)

Last edited by kscherer : 2020-08-17 at 17:15.
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PB PM
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2020-08-17, 19:22

Somehow we survived all the evil security issues on the Mac platform for, what 40+ years without being locked to an App Store. Let’s be real, it has nothing to do with security, it’s about control and profits for Apple.
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turtle
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Formerly turtle2472
 
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2020-08-18, 08:49

I would go with it is all about control for Apple, with a major side helping of money. "It just works" doesn't work with side loading. They need things to just work or they are no different than any other company out there. This is why Apple tries to control everything in their production/development process.

Once you get beyond that, then it is all about making the money. They are a business after all and don't give much away even when there are legitimate wrongs done.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
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2020-08-18, 10:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Somehow we survived all the evil security issues on the Mac platform for, what 40+ years without being locked to an App Store. Let’s be real, it has nothing to do with security, it’s about control and profits for Apple.
A lot of those 40 years had a very different distribution model that people don't want to get back to.

While Apple is being quite disingenuous by pretending we went straight from brick-and-mortar to the App Store, downloading software from the Web was something the masses always looked at with suspicion. Just ask a Windows user how they feel about installing something.
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kscherer
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2020-08-18, 12:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Somehow we survived all the evil security issues on the Mac platform for, what 40+ years without being locked to an App Store.
Errant software developers never had always-on-access to our children's location data.

Russian and Chinese hackers were never able to track the movement of any particular device they chose whenever they wanted.

We never had Pakistan and India trying to scam their way into every device they could access.

The world has changed. A lot! I guarantee side-loaded Fortnite-type addiction games are going to have a field day, and no one will be the wiser.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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Brave Ulysses
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2020-08-18, 14:20

I'm having a hard time caring about this situation, and I think that is a big problem for both sides.

30% of a cut on seemingly everything, does seem to be high, but who has the right to determine what is appropriate?

And from my end user perspective, I don't care what that cut is unless it starts to deter developers from developing for the platform.... which is seems to be starting to do. But, time will tell.
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turtle
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2020-08-18, 14:33

My challenge here is that these businesses are trying to get the government to get involved when it isn't their job. The buyers should be voting with their wallets. I could have my phones like I did with Windows Mobile back 15+ years ago but instead I want the simplicity of iPhone.

I made a choice by choosing an iPhone to use the software that developers support iOS development. There are a few apps I'd love to have on iOS that aren't. I'm not moving to Android because they are there. Being able to side-load is cool for certain things, but those are so limited in my view that it isn't worth the hassle.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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PB PM
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2020-08-18, 14:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Errant software developers never had always-on-access to our children's location data.

Russian and Chinese hackers were never able to track the movement of any particular device they chose whenever they wanted.

We never had Pakistan and India trying to scam their way into every device they could access.

The world has changed. A lot! I guarantee side-loaded Fortnite-type addiction games are going to have a field day, and no one will be the wiser.
While there is some truth to that, for the last 20-28 years the Mac has been exposed to the internet and all those issues you talked about. That’s at least half of the years the Mac platform has existed. If I people are scared, by all means use the App Store, but should users be forced to? I don’t know, it really doesn’t matter to me. Most of the in app purchases are more of a scam that more people fall for than bad actors making evil apps.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
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2020-08-19, 12:19

And now they're after Google. How long will it be before Walmart and Fred Meyer are under suit because they dare to mark up soda pop?

What these ass-hats are going to wind up with is an app environment where all developers must go it entirely alone, small developers will have to cough up hefty fees in order to gain access to developer tools, and apps will rise in price by significant margins in order to cover those costs.

If developers win this, there will be no win for consumers. None! The only people who stand to win anything are the mega-developers. And the quality of their software will begin to slide because Apple and Google will no longer put the same effort into development tools, since there is no profit in it.

And it will all go before judges/juries that haven't a clue how much money/labor goes into creating these things.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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PB PM
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2020-08-19, 14:38

There are downsides to weakening or removing the App Store, no doubt about it. Not to mention how easy it makes to find apps, or it’ll at least it used to be. I very much dislike the current version of the App Store, it’s so cluttered.
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kscherer
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2020-08-19, 14:48

Definitely a lot of crap in there. But what are you going to do with 1.5 million apps?

Adding more app stores will just make things significantly more confusing.

Edit: Also, this!





- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)

Last edited by kscherer : 2020-08-19 at 16:49.
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