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But for me, there isn't. My beliefs aren't based on a book, on someone else's account, on lies or on crazy ideas of superiority or "rapture". They're based on a model that allows me plenty of liberties, without "being judged". I couldn't care less what nutcases like Haggard or Osama think. My beliefs don't impact other people. They just fill what I consider to be a gap in my life. No social conditioning, sorry. If I wanted to go to church and listen to or personally talk to a priest, I could. I know a few fine ones; highly intelligent people, and I've had great conversations with them in the past. But most of the time, I just really don't care to and prefer my thoughts to myself (and am glad when they do the same). Was I born into this? Nope. My father faced strong opposition from his parents when he decided to live pretty much an entirely secular life. Roughly the same for my mom. Was I forced by peers into this? Nope. Virtually all classmates thought of confirmation as an easy way to get money, not to extend one's perspective. There were a few religious people in between, but they wouldn't have dared to speak up anyway for fear of suppression. Would I go to a "Christian College"? No, thank you very much. I value my freedoms, and I would strongly fight for my children (should I ever have any) to have the same. No personal offense, but I think your impression of religious people is largely influenced by the most vocal ones, who happen to be complete jackasses. I'm neither stupid (and therefore not "socially conditioned") nor radical (and therefore not "batshit crazy"). I don't mean anyone harm, I don't drive my beliefs into others' heads to convert them (quite the opposite), and I don't have some model of how everyone who's different is inherently inferior. I also strongly support GBLT rights, am politically very progressive, find capitalism hugely flawed, and would never make the grave mistake of judging the Western society of the 2000s by standards of decades, centuries or millennia ago. |
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I guess it's a choice: comfort vs. reality. If something that is almost certainly not true gives comfort, should people believe it? I'm fairly well adjusted to the fact that I have 70 years here and then nothing after that. A lot of people seem not to be. But I smell an inbound LART, so I'm unsubscribing from this one - AIM innit. Edit: Quote:
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I do associate myself with Jesus, but when I look at all the ridiculous things Christians have done in the recent years, I indeed have a hard time considering myself Christian. I guess if you will, I live in my own denomination.
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Spike, I guess what I'm trying to say is: don't make assumptions of people just because they're not an atheist. |
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geri to my friends
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Heaven
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Not really into the God thing. But to be fair when my 3 month old daughter was rushed to hospital with breathing difficulties, they were unable to find out what was wrong. And as she was getting worse.
The only thing they had not tried was treating her for Asthma as it is very rare in a baby under 12 months. They put here on a nebuliser. They told me that it was touch and go whether she would make it through the night. But if she did there was a good chance she would survive. They left it up to me to decide whether to tell my wife or not. I decided not to tell her, as she was upset enough and did not want to make things worse. We stayed at the hospital overnight. And I prayed for my daughter, as there was nothing else i could do. The morning came and my daughter survived it was diagnosed as Asthma. She was almost back to normal after the nights treatment. God or no God? Did my praying that night have any effect? Who knows, I for one am grateful my daughter suvived. I used to be undecided.....But now I'm not so sure. No trees were harmed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. |
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I'm reminded of Dawkins visiting the Sanctuary of Laurdes - people bringing their sick loved ones to this location to try and reap some of the whatever-the-fuck-it-is that she left behind her, like some kind of holy snail-trail. It's seductive because the Catholic Church have "recognised" 68 'miracles' that occurred (i.e. people visiting and recovering). But when you think that they have had over 200,000,000 deluded pilgrims marching through, you're looking at one in every 2,941,176 people being healed. Which amounts to nothing but chance. And, as Dawkins points out, it's always interesting that nobody ever prays for and recovers from a severed leg - the things people are generally "healed" of are things that might have gotten better anyway. I don't mean to make light of your situation or anything, I'm of course glad your daughter survived and that you may have gotten some kind of belief or faith from it - I just think it's wrong for humans to attribute things like this to a higher power when, very sadly, it's blind luck. It's like when you're reading and listening to the radio and an odd word comes up in the text, and it's used on the radio within seconds - you don't notice it when it doesn't happen. And not to milk Dawkins too much, there is a fantastic excerpt in his book about the Pope, who after recovering from being shot, said "The hand of God guided the bullet." As Dawkins noted, perhaps God could have contrived for the bullet to miss him altogether - and the Pope gave no thanks to the team of surgeons who operated on him for 12 hours overnight, without whom he would surely have died. |
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Location: Amsterdam
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Really, it's not the slightest problem for me to imagine how people can believe that, however bad and unfair life on earth can sometimes be, the universe is basically full of positivity. Some call that God, some think it has no name. Personally, I feel too small and skeptical to know about the universe like that. Maybe, I should be less skeptical about it. Or maybe, I have just a small spirit. Anyway, some years ago I felt wise, realizing that there are as many truths as there are perspectives. Lately I'm getting a little sick of the opportunism this same relativism causes in commerce, media and politics. It would be good for the western world if we were less skeptical about the intrinsic goodness of the Big Everything. It would lead to more integrity and more sincere looking for the truth. I think. But you go first. If you let your skepticism and reservations go, I'll do the same. Oh, Jesus already went before us... ... and died. Last edited by Doxxic : 2007-02-01 at 08:05. |
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I think perhaps the opposite is required. If people realise we're tiny, pretty much alone and only have each other to lean on, then we can really become a global community. I'm so fucking sick of seeing war on TV which has religion at its root. We don't need to justify love in this life, only hatred - religion does that to an absolute tee.
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feeling my oats
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so one God makes sense, but more than one God is weird?? why only one? wouldn't that be lonely? or strange? does God have a mother? if not, what was before God? who taught God right and wrong? told him not to touch the stove? but back to dark matter...could dark matter be the physical manifastation (sp?) of God? Could God have a physical presence, just not one we understand? i use to wonder if Gods (yes plural, i image God would have to be part of a race beyond ours) lived in black holes and in stars....i thought that supernovas were a way for a God to commit suicide...that they became too lonely and just exploded a sun to end their life... but i could be wrong on that point g crazy is not a rare human condition everything is food if you chew hard enough |
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As for extraterrestrial beings, yes, I believe in that as well. I find the notion that, of millions of planets, ours (and only ours!) happens to have remotely intelligent, sentient life forms ridiculous. I'm sure there's gonna be more advanced aliens out there, as well as less advanced ones. I just wouldn't associate them with "God". That's a wholly other matter. |
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mmmm....did God make us? did God make the other aliens?? does God favor us over all others??
God as "One" is ok. everything is God, God is everything. Sort of God as the energy, the red bull, of the universe, but better tasting. i'm cool with that. God as a man-like-thing is less interesting to me. g God as a Concept, not a person....mmmm...do you pray? does one pray to a concept?? dang...we keep moving away from dark matter... i might pray to my DMG....maybe DMG can help me win the lottery this weekend....now that would be a useful God crazy is not a rare human condition everything is food if you chew hard enough |
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cool...i'm less militant in my God talk than i was as a younger man (when i was told so many times by born agains that i was going to hell)
firm believer that if something makes you better and stronger, then it is a good thing...if God makes you stronger, then believe in God...never worked for me, but i wouldn't deny anybody who it does work for...the downside is people who believe but aren't stronger, are actually weaker, because of God anyhoo there has to be more people here who can help explain dark matter...i know a couple have, but i want more interpetations g crazy is not a rare human condition everything is food if you chew hard enough |
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Location: Amsterdam
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Chucker, would you describe God as the idea that the universe as a whole is good, harmonious, true and to be trusted?
If not, can you tell us more about your concept of God? btw You are the first one I've ever seen who seems to have the same ideas about "creation" that I have. I see creation as an inborn concept which helps us distinguish our family from others, and tell what belongs to us and what doesn't. In nature, causality is hard to define, and creation is non-existent, I think (though maybe some animals do feel like things in their world are created and belong to others, too) Last edited by Doxxic : 2007-02-01 at 19:02. |
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I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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Space bends around objects with mass. An object with mass must be a particle. Space doesn't bend around nothing. There is a reason that the dark matter appears in clumps closely associated with stars, it affects and is effected by gravity. There is a very interesting observation of two galaxies colliding which show that gravitaitonal lensing of the colliding bodies is smeared out beyond the stars as if there was something with the same momentum of the original galaxies that just kept going... It has been suggested that this is the dark matter shadow of the galaxies. Just to be sure, until these recent gravitational lensing observations were complete, I didn't actually know of any evidence that would legitimately cause you to think that dark matter actually existed. It is far easier to explain all of the observations now with known particles that do not interact with light than with a new type of gravity self-formation... |
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Multi-touch Piñata
Join Date: May 2004
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A mix of science and Theravadan Buddhism are what get me through life happily.
Kamma is just action. It's not a guess as to how things work, it's an observation. We're in a small lake and the ripples always come back to us eventually*. No creator, no fixed, substantial self, just endless interconnected processes. (* I won't get into it here but don't take that literally, because we have a lot of presumptions about what a "self" is.) Problem with "buddhism" is how misinterpreted and hyper-mispresented it is in the west. On top of that, only a fraction of the so-called adherents actually know the philosophical or doctrinal aspects of their own "branch". Plus the majority of attention goes to the (essentially "heretical") Mahayana schools such as Zen/"Tibetan"/Tantric/transcendant Buddhism that dominates the bookshelves, press and pop culture. Go back to the Early Buddhist material (Five out of a hundred books at your bookstore might be about Theravada and the rest are a mish-mash of "Tibetan"/Mahayana stuff or new age bunk) and you find a wealth of info on how to live a non-dogmatic, highly moral and constructive life, with actual happiness™, all without any need for a creator-god nor any reason for a reward-heaven and punishment-hell. It's arguable that science and (Theravada) Buddhism's impersonal, non-sentient processes are more motivational to a human living in a society than any fantastical, unknowable, creator myth can be because there is no safety net. We don't have the universe making exceptions "just for us", so it's up to us to do the right things and keep awareness, at a personal, societal and global level. If anything, coming from a Catholic background as I do, the Theravada's cold, impersonal universal mechanisms of kamma, samsara/nibbana is closer to my original conception of God when I was a kid. Getting into adulthood the Christian God concept is progressively more and more humanized/anthropromorphized by culture to the point of where He has no "weight" anymore. We created god in our image, in other words. My god as a kid was as stark and baffling as a 2001 monolith, or contemplating an event horizon. Unknowable and not caring to be known or not. I think I require absolute distain from my god, if I am to have one. I wish there were a god, for your sake. But imagination is a powerful thing, so the fact is, you imagine there is a god to such an extent that for all you know, he does exist. Meanwhile, I'll be here, in Reality, if you need me. "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." - Albert Einstein |
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It's all admittedly a very vague concept, but it isn't exactly meant to be described in detail, let alone defined. Like I said, the goal of my beliefs is to give my life "hope", "purpose", and the desire to strive for something "better". |
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Location: Amsterdam
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First I thought this thread had a bizarre title, but look how far it got us. We're actually discussing the inherent goodness of the universe.
To get back to the question: whatever dark matter is, it's can hardly be God's bright side... |
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Location: Arizona
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uhhhh........ |
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Location: Arizona
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feeling my oats
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if i started a new religion for my Dark Matter God, and i promised it was more sane and loving and giving than some of the other "new religions" (anything started in the last few hundred years), do you think:
1) i could get people to join? 2) i would get tax exempt status? 3) i would end up crucified?? a blending of science and theology...the "we are one, but we are also learning and growing and evolving and yet still searching"...a religion that discusses more than preaches, that strives to understand more that claims to have all the answers... can you be a religion if you ask more than you tell?? and would people want to be a part of that? would people fear that?? i do know that many, if not most, when it comes to religion, want to be told...can we change that so people instead want to add to and discover--again, would people accept, embrace, a religion that asked instead of told? maybe i'm not saying all this right...but would people accept a religion of questions and exploration vs a religion of rules and commandments (though the commandments at the time were very important and are still a good building block)... not trying to do a L Ron, nor do i want to be burned at the stake...but i just wonder if i could get people interested in such a thing and also if i can do it as a tax free entity thanks g ps...terms like Dark Matter Halo should help me get the angel crowd pss...anymore explainations of dark matter would be good crazy is not a rare human condition everything is food if you chew hard enough |
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not to get too crazy with all this...but...and this is really all spinning like a top around my brain
have we found God?? 1. impossibly huge, stretches across known space and time. 2. massive in weight, dwarfing the weight of whole universes. 3. impossibly powerful, bending light, changing the motion of galaxys, keeping the universe from tearing itself apart... 4. basically unknown and unapproachable (at least to early man, which we still are. by the time we can know and approach DM we will be much more advanced than we are today) we can touch it, can't see it, we know (or think we know) it's there, but we really don't even know what it is...we almost have to have Faith to believe in DM could this be God? doesn't it almost Have to be God?? eeek, i really need better minds and writers to get together and put this down, i feel like i'm failing to explain. i guess the question is kind of an artistic palindrome: how can dark matter not be God, how can God not be dark matter? who is charismatic enough to be the front man for my new religion? i need some good minds and writers too g crazy is not a rare human condition everything is food if you chew hard enough |
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Ok, talked to my wife last night and I might have to go with this...I actually have her approval to do something as crazy as this...she is just happy to see me using my mind, asking questions, wondering about everything again...so here goes...
The Church of the DMG: The Church of Calm and Strength There is something out there, something huge yet unknown. We can't see or touch it, but we know it is there. God is finally showing "his face" to us if we care to look. This something, this God, has a purpose. Whether this purpose is active or passive is not known, nor does it really matter. The Dark Matter God holds the universe together. The DMG brings strength to the universe, holding it tight, keeping it calm. Without the DMG the universe would rip itself apart. Without the DMG mankind would not exist, because mankind could not have evolved in a universe ripping itself apart. Thus the DMG, whether actively or passively, again it doesn't really matter, created mankind. So the DMG holds the universe together. The universe being held together allows for mankind to exist. But why should we have a Church of the DMG, The Church of Calm and Strength? What would be its purpose, it's function, its reason to exist? Well the main tenent would be: Just as the DMG brings calm and strength and stability to the universe, so can you "tap in to" the DMG, either actively or passively, to bring calm and strength and stability to yourself, your relationships, the small "universe" that emits from the center of you and reaches out to the people you know, people you love, people you work with, that you interact with each and every day. There would be some answers, lots of questions and always a searching and reaching out. How to find and maintain calm, how to find and maintain strength, how to find and maintain stability. Instead of sermons (though there would be a sermon component, a teaching, at the start of each gathering) there would be a process...a teaching followed by discussion followed by meditation/prayer...the meditation/prayer time would be a time when you try to clear you mind and reach out to the DMG...not to ask for things, but to tap in to the power that calms the universe... You close your eyes and see yourself...your size, your mass, the boundary of you...then you spread out to the house you are in, it's size and mass and boundary...then you spread out to feel your city, then your state, then your country, then your world...each time taking the time to feel the expanse, to feel the size, the mass, the boundary...then your expand to reach from one side of the solar system to the other...then expand to reach the next star...to reach ten more...then stretch to reach from one side of the milky way to the other...feel the hugeness of that, the weight of that, stretching so far, holding so much...now look over and realize that with all your mass as the milky way, with all the space to take, with all the 400 billion suns you now hold, well look over at the DMG that surrounds you, that calms you and holds you together and know that you are, as the milky way still, are but a speck of dirt under the pinky toenail of the DMG. Still you can reach out to that hugeness, that impossible size and mass and strength, and you can touch it and pull from it some strength and calm for you... Again, I don't have the words just right yet, time will help with that... So the purpose would be to find calm and strength and bring it inside you. The purpose would also be to come together and learn and question and grow. A final purpose would be to study and build and expand so that one day we could actually go out and travel to the DMG...this would take numerous centuries...perhaps be our quest...not be a main part of the religion, but a small, side part...I have no idea what we would do or say or feel when mankind gets to the DMG, but by then, so many years away, I know we will have a better understanding and a better connection to our DMG... Through practice and training I might be able to mentally reach out to the DMG. The children of my children’s children’s children may one day actually reach out and touch the DMG. By that time they may understand how and why. Later comes understanding of the Universe as One. Or almost one...DMG is One, all else is Two...Two can tap into One...perhaps Two becomes part of One...taking the whole energy cannot be destroyed, we are energy, what happens to our energy at death...etc etc.but that is what all the learning and questioning part of this religion are for... Chinney can be my voice in Canada ...I would like that But dang I have a lot to do...a web site to set up, web monkey to hire, forum to set up, tax exempt status to look into, physical church space to research and buy or rent, strong minds to help grow and further this and I would love to visit a few theology schools... heck I have bumper stickers to make-- I'm @ One with the DMG My God is Huge, DMG Calm and Strength, DMG The Church of Calm and Strength ...mmm, lots to do g PS. I also make a solemn pledge not to make myself rich on this and not to use my position to have sex with young men or women...the benefits beyond my current middle-class lifestyle would be purely emotional and mental..."worldly" I promise my life will change very little. A new scooter every couple of years will keep me happy...but my relationship with this world, with the people that inhabit it, my relationship with myself and my own mind, that I see growing quite a bit... crazy is not a rare human condition everything is food if you chew hard enough |
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ha, thanks...you can be my official historian...
wow, that would be weird if i actually needed an official historian g |
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Glad this thread got a bump: scientists are currently debating the worth of constructing an enormous, 31km (initially) particle accelerator in Australia at a cost of around $8bn. It's hoped that this might lead to discovering more about dark matter.
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1043 Really cool. Here's hoping they make a few black holes and conclusively prove that aspect of superstring theory once and for all. |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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Have you seen Religion, Inc.? It really sucks, but it's about a guy who starts a religion, though his goal is monetary gain.
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