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iTunes vs. MSN Music
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porter
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2004-09-01, 23:20

What can be done to prevent history repeating itself?

Should Apple try to do anything with iTunes or the iPod like:
-iTMS songs being able to play on other mp3 players?
-the iPod being able to play other propietary formats?

I think iPod and iTunes are just fine the way they are- it's available to both Mac and PC users. My only concern is that MS can and will probably operate MSN Music at a loss until iTMS is shut down- I think MS is too proud to lose to Apple on this one.

Apple should connect all the iTMS stores together, so anybody, anywhere can buy any song. Christ, you can already browse the other stores- they're so close to making this a reality. If Apple does that, then they'll really be way ahead of the competition.
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Paul
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2004-09-01, 23:38

You don't have a very good grasp on the legal hurdles involved in the iTMS... They cannot just give everyone access to the store globally. Just impossible unless there is a real shake-up in the RIAA and even then there will have to be massive negotiations... not goona happen.

I don't think Microsoft will be very successful because the RIAA doesn't trust them and will not give them as much flexibility as they have Apple.

Apple should do none of those things and just react to the MS store. If they start to make inroads (which is unlikely) all they have to do is lower the price of the iPod. Problem solved. The only thing that would question their hold is if some other hardware company makes a REAL iPod killer... but such a feat will be near impossible, and even if it is done it will be extremely expensive and will not become a major player.

The iPod is the secret to the iTMS' success, not the other way around. That is why Real et al. are dying to open it up however they can.

1215/234215 (top .51875%)
People really have got to stop thinking there is only one operating system, one economic system, one religion, and one business model. -EvilTwinSkippy (/.)
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BarracksSi
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2004-09-01, 23:51

The iTunes-iTMS-iPod integration is already so good, so full of "Of course, that's how it should work!"-ness, it's going to take a Herculean effort for another company to beat it.

Can Microsoft do it? If they were the only company involved, well, maybe they could. However, there are too many hands in the online music process to let them have free rein -- and not many of those hands want to let Microsoft run things, either.

I'm eager to see the MSN Music store get started. I can't wait to see Microsoft stumble.
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MCQ
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2004-09-02, 00:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarracksSi
The iTunes-iTMS-iPod integration is already so good, so full of "Of course, that's how it should work!"-ness, it's going to take a Herculean effort for another company to beat it.

Can Microsoft do it? If they were the only company involved, well, maybe they could. However, there are too many hands in the online music process to let them have free rein -- and not many of those hands want to let Microsoft run things, either.

I'm eager to see the MSN Music store get started. I can't wait to see Microsoft stumble.


http://beta.music.msn.com/
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alcimedes
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2004-09-02, 01:23

actually, that's not a bad iTunes ripoff.
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Eugene
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2004-09-02, 01:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes
actually, that's not a bad iTunes ripoff.
it makes me want to gouge out my eyes.

Too much text and the separators aren't apparent enough.
  quote
BarracksSi
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2004-09-02, 01:34

It would be better if it had preview clips.

But, it's just a beta, right?
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Barracuda
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2004-09-02, 01:38

I already like one feature of the MSN Music Store...for every artist's page that you go to, you can select "Find Tickets" and see where that artist is playing concerts and buy tickets to go see them. You can also select "Find Lyrics"...but it just does an MSN Search and brings up other websites and doesn't zero it down to the lyrics you are looking for very intuitively. I think Apple could definitely do this better with their spotlight technology.

I'd like to see those features added to iTunes.

Not that I am interested in buying anything on MSN Music Store...but can Mac users purchase and download on there? While you can search around their site, I don't think it's available to Mac users yet.
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Brad
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2004-09-02, 01:44

What I find hilarious is that there are ads on the side for "Sponsored Sites" that try to compete with MS's own offers.

Quote:
Unlimited Music Download for $0.95/Month
Download Society provides unlimited downloads of millions of songs, including albums or single tracks, Mp3s, new music, movies, games, and more. Support and service 24/7. (www.downloadsocie...)

Unlimited Music Downloads - $0.99/Month
Download and play unlimited music and MP3s for only $0.99/month. Find any artist online and download all the music you want. Play them on your MP3 player. No fees per song. (www.mp3downloadin...)

Free Music Downloads $29 One Time Fee
Unlimited fast MP3 music downloads. No monthly fees. All your favorite artists available. (www.kazagold.com)
  quote
Brad
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2004-09-02, 01:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barracuda
Not that I am interested in buying anything on MSN Music Store...but can Mac users purchase and download on there? While you can search around their site, I don't think it's available to Mac users yet.
Nope.

http://beta.music.msn.com/help/requirements.aspx
Quote:
HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE REQUIREMENTS
  • Windows 98 SE, Windows 2000, or Windows XP
  • Internet Explorer 5.01 (or later), which supports 128-bit encryption
  • Windows Media Player 7.1 (or later), we recommend the latest version
  • A 233 megahertz (MHz) processor (such as an Intel Pentium II or Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) processor) or faster
  • 64 megabytes (MB) of RAM or more
  • Speakers and sound capability
  • Payment with a valid credit card with a U.S. billing address
  • To enjoy high-quality audio as a Radio Plus subscriber, you will need Windows Media Player 9 Series (or later)
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hmurchison
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2004-09-02, 10:00

Quote:
What can be done to prevent history repeating itself?
I don't know what history that would be. If we're talking Macintosh era then Apple has never had a majority stake. If we're talking Apple II era then we can say Apple had a larger portion of the market but if they held the majority marketshare it was very short.

This is encouraging because doomsday journalists like to make it seem like the Macintosh lost its marketshare to the dominant MS when in fact Macs have never had large marketshare and Apple has never lost a %70 advantage to MS. History cannot repeat itself because the history that some offer is incorrect.

iTMS could lose but that would take a huge gaffe from Apple and damn near anti trust actions by MS.

omgwtfbbq
  quote
Brad
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2004-09-02, 10:45

I agree with hmurchison.

And, please, anyone that questions if history is repeating itself needs to read this article from Daring Fireball:

Why 2004 Won’t Be Like 1984

It's an excellent write-up of the events then and now.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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thegelding
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2004-09-02, 10:52

MS plans to make more off of ads than music....

the question is:

should apple add ads? (no)

should apple market and play up the fact that MS wants you to see multiple banner ads and such while apple and iTMS just wants you to get the music you want? (yes)


g

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everything is food if you chew hard enough
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Barracuda
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2004-09-02, 15:32

Apple will never pollute iTunes with such blantant ads! They are already much smarter than that...they actually work with the labels and artists and come up with all sorts of creative promotion; they have excellent featured artist pages, iTunes Originals, all sorts of cool stuff. They are really on top of it, and I think there will always be more inventive stuff coming our way...Apple will always stay ahead of the pack with their marketing skills!

The above two things I mentioned in my last post as far as what I liked about the MSN store are the only things I like...but I like the concept of them more than I like the execution of them and I know Apple can do a better job at that! Apple should add "Tour Dates and Ticket Sales" on the featured artists page, and/or have an "On Tour" section. Something that says..."This artist on tour" ...and where...that would be convenient and cool!

If you could search for a song with a few a lyrics, that would also be cool, but I think it would be really hard to pull off!
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ast3r3x
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2004-09-02, 16:06

If MS is having to sell $4 for popular songs. Do they suck that badly at convincing the record companies or is it that Apple is willing to take a hit to lock people into the iTMS?
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hmurchison
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2004-09-02, 17:47

"We'll make money on the ads" LOL riiiiiight Redmond. The key to making money from adverstising is great click through. This MSN Music site is an abomination...unless it drastically improves there won't be enough hits to generate money on ads.

Here's the truth. Inertia is hard for anyone to overcome..standard physics apply...if Apple maintains %60 marketshare of the legal downloads by year end 2005 the race is over for all intents and purposes. Microsoft has just over a year to skyrocket and judging from what I see their service is nowhere near the quality required.

All the koolaid drinking PC journalists in the world can will people to use such a crappy service. I'm sorry but there is no Microsoft Mystique here. End of 2005 there will be over 300 million purchased iTMS tracks. There will be home players and more car players. Apple just needs to execute very well for the next 18 months and inertia grants them the keys to this "dream machine" for a long time.

omgwtfbbq
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torifile
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2004-09-02, 20:14

One interesting thing: there are tracks that are "CD only" as in, you've got to buy the physical CD to get the song. How stupid is that? If I were going to buy the CD, I wouldn't buy ANY tracks off it online. And these are some of the same songs that are only $.99 on the iTMS. Different deals with the record companies?
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BarracksSi
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2004-09-02, 20:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by MYSELF
I'm eager to see the MSN Music store get started. I can't wait to see Microsoft stumble.
I'm enjoying it so far...
  quote
porter
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2004-09-02, 21:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barracuda
Apple will never pollute iTunes with such blantant ads! They are already much smarter than that...they actually work with the labels and artists and come up with all sorts of creative promotion; they have excellent featured artist pages, iTunes Originals, all sorts of cool stuff. They are really on top of it, and I think there will always be more inventive stuff coming our way...Apple will always stay ahead of the pack with their marketing skills!
Exactly!

Yes a global iTMS store is something they can do. Yes Paul, there are legal hurdles, massive negotiations, and etc. But look at the whole online music idea- a couple years ago iTMS would be unheard of, anybody would have been laughed off the forums for suggesting something like that. The internet is radically changing the music business, which is why iTMS exists today and why everybody wants in on the market. If anybody can get people to change it's Jobs and Apple. I think if Jobs wants a global iTMS, we will get a global iTMS.

Before the internet, it would be unheard of to get football scores for Manchester United or to listen to the latest pop music in Japan. Everything is going global because we can. As a result, we can download anything, anytime already. So businesses might as well make a profit off it. Yes it sounds crazy, but I think this is the next step, why else would they allow you to browse other iTMSs? You can do everything on a foreign iTMS short of buying the song.

If Apple did link all the iTMSs together, MSN would be in big trouble- you'd instantly get the world buying up American songs that may have not been released in their countries, the Japanese anime/JPOP fans around the world would use iTMS, and any immigrant would use it to keep up with the music from their original country. Imagine the sheer number of people using iTMS... around the world, while MS is still trying to get the US market.
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futuretheory
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2004-09-03, 00:55

With all these posts making fun of MSTune, I'm filled with memories of a crazed mother screeching at her telekinetic daughter, "They're all going to laugh at you!" just before the big dance... Wait that didn't work out so well for anybody, sorry bad comparison....
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mugwump
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2004-09-03, 03:12

I'm surprised that MS doesn't simply offer a 200 Million song promotion. "Get 10 free downloads when you sign up for your account."

$200M would be but a drop in their marketing budget.

BTW - The msTunes store is oh so bland.
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ast3r3x
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2004-09-03, 08:19

It was kinda creepy how they said like. Once we get your information, it's only a couple of clicks to sign up for our other services.
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sCreeD
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2004-09-03, 09:58

Speaking of which... Jobs offered Sony a partnership into iTMS.

Oy. If only they'd accepted the deal they could have avoided being spanked for this mess.

Screed
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Barracuda
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2004-09-03, 22:18

About the Global iTMS...very cool idea...that would be KILLER!!!

I too have been browsing the international iTMS stores...whenever I travel, I like to buy music in the native language (or artists from those countries that sing in English, too)...usually in a genre that I enjoy listening to; mostly rock/pop/alternative but also World music too. I have bought some excellent music from French musicians and I can't wait to hear the iTMS Norway...they have an excellent music scene there! I think their climate generates a certain creativity in bands as they hole up in the winter and jam....similar to Seattle

I think the best way to introduce this idea is for Apple to have an IMPORT section on each iTMS store. That's a good way to start before they go completely global someday and figure out how to allocate the royalties to all the different artists and different label subsideries around the world.

iTunes is beautifully interactive to the music buffs. It such a great way to introduce or keep up on new music. I love how Apple has New Music Tuesdays, just like the industry in the US.

I would even go so far as to say that iTunes captures the essence of music in a similar way as Cameron Crowe's Almost Famous. iTunes is very thoughtful and it RAWKS!!! :smokey:
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2004-09-04, 04:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile
One interesting thing: there are tracks that are "CD only" as in, you've got to buy the physical CD to get the song. How stupid is that? If I were going to buy the CD, I wouldn't buy ANY tracks off it online.
iTMS has some of those too ("album only"). It's unfortunate, but it's not Apple's or MSN's fault.
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staph
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2004-09-04, 04:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barracuda
I can't wait to hear the iTMS Norway...they have an excellent music scene there! I think their climate generates a certain creativity in bands as they hole up in the winter and jam....similar to Seattle
Yes… lots of industrial. And dark/industrial ambient too.

If the iTMS ever makes it to Australia.
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goldfish
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2004-09-04, 17:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by porter
Yes a global iTMS store is something they can do. Yes Paul, there are legal hurdles, massive negotiations, and etc. But look at the whole online music idea- a couple years ago iTMS would be unheard of, anybody would have been laughed off the forums for suggesting something like that. The internet is radically changing the music business, which is why iTMS exists today and why everybody wants in on the market. If anybody can get people to change it's Jobs and Apple. I think if Jobs wants a global iTMS, we will get a global iTMS.
Of course! All they'll have to do is harmonise the world's tax laws. And then after breakfast, Apple can sort out world peace....

Simon
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alcimedes
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2004-09-04, 18:50

Quote:
iTMS has some of those too ("album only"). It's unfortunate, but it's not Apple's or MSN's fault.
iirc, the apple one's mean you have to download the entire album for the album only songs. not buy the CD. if they don't let you download a track, they don't list it as one that's available.

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porter
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2004-09-05, 01:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldfish
Of course! All they'll have to do is harmonise the world's tax laws. And then after breakfast, Apple can sort out world peace....
Simon
OK, so lets say the RIAA's efforts to curb illegal mp3s works- the majority of people are afraid to download. In addition to that, iTMS, MSN, Napster, etc. all offer songs for cheap and business booms for them. Let's take it even farther- in America illegal downloading of music has totally stopped. Nobody does it anymore. The RIAA is content, and record labels are making record profits, right? Wrong.

Now what songs are being protected here in the US? American songs. You can download a gig of Spanish songs off Kazaa and nobody will touch you. Download a Metallica song and expect to hear from the RIAA. Why? Because they want to protect the American recording companies. Good for them, but guess what? The rest of the world is still downloading American songs. A Metallica CD released in America will be available illegally online, thus anybody in the world can download it. And it's the same for recording companies all over the world. So money is still being lost through illegal downloading.

Now what is better- to have 100% (which is an impossible figure) of all songs bought in one country and rampant illegal downloading in the rest of the world? Or to have some ratio where out of every 10 songs, 5 are bought, thus making a profit? Now you may think the rest of the world is backwards when it comes to using the internet and downloading. And you're right, but eventually the rest of the world will catch up to us. Then what?

Eventually the RIAA are going to have to deal with illegal downloading on an international level and in the future, foreign downloads could very well comprimise the majority of illegal downloading of RIAA music, now you tell me which is more far-fetched:

1) Apple negotiates with record companies in the countries they have iTMS set up to allow anybody on iTMS to buy a song from them. OK, so the way of doing business is changed radically due to technology... oooh, change! Foreshame! But the recording companies can profit from this due to this change. They may not be able to stop all illegal downloads, but they can make a profit on a certain percentage of downloads.

2) RIAA goes global and to counter music piracy in the world, they start suing non-US citizens and slapping $500,000 fines on users around the world. The RIAA must now contact the US government and individual country to determine whether the RIAA can work with local authorities and sue the person in their home country or whether to extradite that person to the US so they can be sued.

3) The RIAA sets up shop in other countries and attempts to convince foreign governments to prosecute their citizens because they downloaded Metallica, Brittany Spears, etc.

4) Just hope the problem goes away and that this whole "Internet" fad will die out and people will embrace CDs once again.

What is easier and more profitable to protect music, preventing somebody downloading music or allowing people to download music for a price?
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Wrao
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2004-09-05, 17:42

I think there is one thing that could severely hurt the iTMS.

If McCartney sided with MS and the Beatles recordings were released exclusively on MSN Music.

any possibility in this happening? cause that'd be bad news for Apple.
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