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What is up with the Mac?


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What is up with the Mac?
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Brave Ulysses
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Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2017-10-19, 15:52

Curious what theories everyone has as to what Apple is really doing with the Mac? The latest Mac Mini turned three years old this week. Despite that, a customer received a response from Tim Cook saying that the Mac mini will be a major part of apples product lineup in the future.

It seems like Mac development has really stagnated for the last 3-5 years. It’s easy to dismiss it as just apple putting less resources into a declining industry sector but even that doesn’t make a lot of sense. It doesn’t take much to produce annual updates, even if minor. And Apple admittedly screwed up the Mac Pro. Also felt the need to pre announce the iMac Pro which itself is a weird product, with a weird release date. To date, apple has not said much at all about the iMac pro.

Think it’s just complete disorder and lack of focus and resources or have they just been betting the farm on some major shift on the Mac side that is still not ready for prime time?
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chucker
 
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2017-10-20, 02:25

The Mac mini and Mac Pro are embarrassing, and they need to consolidate the MacBook line, but other than that, it’s just been… a bit slow? Stuff like APFS, Touch Bar and eGPU is happening, so it’s far from dead. I do wish we’d have more high-end MBP options, and I do wish they’d fix some longstanding issues such as Finder networking reliability (pretending a server isn’t there when it’s really just a stuck background process, for instance).

Also, please let us mirror iOS widgets to Notification Center?
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Yontsey
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2017-10-20, 02:47

I would really like to see a Mac Mini update. Have been needing a couple for my office at work but they are so outdated it’s hard to justify buying them right now.
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709
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Join Date: May 2004
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2017-10-20, 11:43

I was kind've hoping we'd get another stage event this year, but MR just reported that Apple is "Keynoted out for the year". Not even any HomePod release date news, which I would expect to be coming soon as that's the most likely thing I'd consider for Xmas gifting.

So it goes.
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PB PM
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2017-10-20, 22:06

A Mac Mini update would be nice, no doubt about it. Not that I have a big issue with my 2012 unit, but it would be nice to see some of the newer generation chips with better IGP's that would better support 4k than the current model.

Of course, I don't like how closed off the mini has become, without user up-gradable RAM or storage. Not a big deal for how I use my Mini, the 250GB SSD is enough, but I also use the second drive bay for a good old HDD for time machine and additional storage.
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Brave Ulysses
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2017-10-21, 17:04

But what could explain the multi year gap between updates for all these things. Do you think Apple is just waiting to jump to their AX processors when the time and performance is right? It seems like something went horribly wrong, or at least not to plan, across the entire Mac hardware front. And I don’t believe that it is just that Intel hasn’t released any exciting processors recently.
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chucker
 
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2017-10-22, 05:30

Seems like a combination of low priority and design mistakes.

With the Mac Pro, they acknowledged that it had a design flaw. Newer CPUs and GPUs required significant changes to the chassis, which they hadn't anticipated. That sort of makes sense (though it also speaks to hubris), but it doesn't quite excuse needing four years and counting to come out with a replacement. The latter is probably best explained by low priority.
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PB PM
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2017-10-22, 13:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
But what could explain the multi year gap between updates for all these things. Do you think Apple is just waiting to jump to their AX processors when the time and performance is right? It seems like something went horribly wrong, or at least not to plan, across the entire Mac hardware front. And I don’t believe that it is just that Intel hasn’t released any exciting processors recently.
What went wrong? What haven't they done wrong with the Mac in the past 3-4 years? From poor hardware choices, to dumbing down Mac OS and it's core software. Turning off the user base doesn't help sales, which likely made them think that nobody cared about the Mac anymore. Big mistake, I for one am hesitant to ever buy a Mac again, given the current direction.

I think the plan was to switch almost all Macs to AX chips, they might have even had them all designed and ready to go. Then started to notice a growing resentment and frustration from a vocal and influential portion of the user base, many of whom are content creators. They suddenly realized that AX bases systems were not going to be good enough for that group. Why would they care about that vocal user base? Simple, these social media types have a huge impact on what many people choose to buy. I think Apple finally figured it out when a growing part of these vocal members of Apple fanbase started publicly switching to hackintoshes, or Windows.
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turtle
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2017-10-22, 13:58

Yep, I now mostly build Hackintosh machines rather than but legit Apple hardware. I did buy an MBP but that is because I don't want my laptop being a hack. Heck, I hacked a server of mine running ESXi so I could run Mac VMs on it. That Dell was way cheaper than an equivalent Mac would have cost me.

I will say though, I'm paying the price of bugginess on my main system (that runs the ANMC VM for that matter) because it's not native Apple hardware. VMware isn't being very helpful in resoling the issue I'm having with Fusion either.

Going forward I would be shocked to have a Mac lineup like it was in the heyday switch to Intel period. I would love it, but I'm just not seeing it. Granted, many have moved away from PCs. In fact, I generally recommend most of the people talking with me to get a tablet and streaming receiver. Normally this is an iPad/iPad Pro and AppleTV, but not always. This covers most people's use cases.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
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Frank777
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2017-10-22, 18:59

It's not hard to figure out. Apple's earnings primarily come from iPhone/iOS now, and Cook has no historical attachment to the Mac.

When a Mini sells for $599 in its niche market, and an iPhone is over $1000. - and phones are used by everyone, the focus stays on profits.
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PB PM
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2017-10-22, 23:44

Sure iPhone's and iOS are top dog right now for Apple. Then again, if you start to piss off the Mac user base, who says those people will continue to buy iPhones or iPads? Without a Mac, there really isn't any reason to stay with iOS, unless you are really worried about security (business phone).
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Eugene
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2017-10-23, 00:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Sure iPhone's and iOS are top dog right now for Apple. Then again, if you start to piss off the Mac user base, who says those people will continue to buy iPhones or iPads? Without a Mac, there really isn't any reason to stay with iOS, unless you are really worried about security (business phone).
iPhone maintains a 34% market share in the US and ~20% globally. Macs amount to 7.5% of PC sales globally. It’s Macs that are the accessory for iPhone users not the other way around. It’s time to stop being 2000s PB PM and become 2010s PB PM. I mean, we're almost in the 2020s now.

Think about all the users on this board who have either built Hackintoshes or migrated their desktop workflows to Windows or at least a timeshare of macOS and Windows. I’m willing to bet we’re all still on iPhones by choice because Windows still isn’t a thing on phones and Android doesn’t coexist with Windows any better than iOS.
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PB PM
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2017-10-23, 09:21

That's the difference between us, I don't give a rip what year it is or what is trendy like the mindless sheep. My life does not revolve around phones, or computers for that matter. I use what I use because it does what I need, when it no longer does it, I stop. Which is why my main computer is no longer an Apple device. I use iOS right now, but in the future, maybe not.
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alcimedes
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2017-10-23, 14:43

nothing is up with the Mac, that's the underlying problem.
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Brave Ulysses
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2017-10-23, 22:23

I guess I find it a bit weird if only for the reason that nearly every Apple employee likely sits in front of a Mac everyday to do his/her job. You would think that alone would make it a priority.
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kscherer
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2017-10-23, 22:45

Those folks spend their day in front of Office, Xcode, or iApps. Every Mac currently made works more than well enough for that, so not a good enough argument.
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Eugene
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2017-10-24, 18:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
That's the difference between us, I don't give a rip what year it is or what is trendy like the mindless sheep. My life does not revolve around phones, or computers for that matter. I use what I use because it does what I need, when it no longer does it, I stop. Which is why my main computer is no longer an Apple device. I use iOS right now, but in the future, maybe not.
The difference between us is I started moving my workflow off the Mac around 2004 when my Power Mac G4 Quicksilver was no longer adequate. That’s the last time I bought a Mac desktop as my primary work computer. I’ve put together four Windows PCs since and my portables remain Macs. I still prefer macOS and the difference in hardware spec on the laptop side is less dramatic. The difference is the last time I upgraded my CPU or GPU was January 2011. Advances in IPC have largely slowed to a trickle. Only now has a 6-core equivalent of my 2600K been released. GPUs still don’t matter that much except in games and...uh...mining $6000 bitcoins.

You are still clinging onto old ideals for Apple and the PC industry. You are so blinded by aura of the past, that you can’t even see how you’ve moved away from Mac hardware yet still use an iPhone. Switch to Android, I dare you. Unlike with Mac vs DIY, there’s no major hardware advantage in switching to one of the many Android phones. iPhones are faster. If you want to switch to Android, then you must be a fan of the software side of things, so tell me, what specifically about it entices you?

Nope, Apple has basically ensured that I will stick to iDevices because of the iTunes Music Store, the App Store, iCloud, etc.

Apple also has a better dev environment than Android by a long shot. Just ask any app dev who wants to support accessory hardware like BT based sensors...it’s a mess. There are many iOS apps like these that simply work better than their Android counterparts.

Most important of all, it’s okay to think Apple should update their Macs just because they are due. You don’t have to make up FUD about how the lack of Mac updates will facilitate the decline of the iDevice market. Wait, I thought you didn’t care about trends, but here you are making weird off-base predictions.
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PB PM
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2017-10-24, 18:52

You don't get the difference between us at all actually. None of that matters to me, at all. Sure moving from iTunes would suck, but whatever. As I said, my life does not revolve around that stuff. Hardly ever use cloud functions, and could live without it easily. Don't even have a data plan! Yeah it's 2017, and I don't have data. Don't need to be connected to the net 24/7, just don't. Heck I could get by with my old moto Razer from 2004, but the iPhone is nice for the few times I bother using WIFI on it. The GPS/iPod/phone combined functions are the main reasons I switched to a smartphone from a dumb phone, beyond that I have few needs from it. So whether I use iOS, Android, or some other mobile OS, the tie ins are of little meaning.
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drewprops
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2017-10-24, 19:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
You don't get the difference between us at all actually...
LOL You aren't a customer for ANY modern computer manufacturer!


...
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PB PM
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2017-10-24, 20:00

Yeah poor me, not a social media addicted sheep who buys into all the nonsense of theses pethetic money grabbing companies. I'm laughing all the way to the bank.
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Eugene
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2017-10-24, 21:24

So on one hand you're saying you lead a simple life unfettered by the hardware update hype-train, and on the other hand you're constantly in these threads lamenting the lack of Mac updates. Working both sides of the argument when it suits you. You *are* overly concerned with what Apple does with the Mac. You suggest there will be a problem with iDevice customer retention (because you don't understand what's heads or tails.) If it doesn't matter to you, then why are you still here complaining about it on a forum devoted to the company that has grabbed more money in the last two decades than them all.

In fact it sounds like your life could be run from the very iDevices you say you don't really need. Perhaps it's the traditional PC/Mac that you don't actually need instead?!

e: Apple wants you to buy a MacBook [Pro] or an iMac. The Mac mini has never had the sales volume. It is increasingly niche now that standalone media devices have taken over the role of the HTPC. iOS devices replace it. Done. The Mac Pro? It's coming, maybe. I still think blaming the trash can design was a copout. They could have kept updating the components on each PCB while retaining the design. They elected not to. Whatever the Mac Pro morphs into, it'll probably be way more PC than most of us care for. I already know I won't be buying one.

Last edited by Eugene : 2017-10-24 at 22:02.
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PB PM
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2017-10-24, 21:54

Yeah, I'll just edit my videos and high resolution RAW photos on a tiny little iPhone screen, cause that makes perfect sense. I wouldn't say my life is not at all linked to tech, but rather I discard tech that I see as not needed for what I do. I don't need 24/7 social media, or music streaming, and I don't need 24/7 internet as a result. It's not complicated. Doesn't mean I don't use, I just don't use it much on an iPhone because I don't need it on the go nine times out of ten.

The desktop computer is extremely useful for photo and video editing/rendering, and having powerful GPU is nice for those things, and others, like running 3D simulations.

Last edited by PB PM : 2017-10-24 at 22:04.
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Eugene
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2017-10-24, 22:17

Lightroom CC still does not make use of GPU acceleration in any appreciable way...I have it turned off. Handbrake and other encoders also only minimally use GPU acceleration. So that leads to "3D simulations..." Specifically what kind? Games perhaps?

As mentioned earlier, I do all of my Lightroom work on a PC circa 2011. Only in the last month has a 6-core i7-2600K replacement been introduced. Anyone who has upgraded since 2011 really has no reason to upgrade CPUs again. GPU updates? Sure, a couple times from then till now would have made sense, but then again who buys Macs wanting the ability to in-place upgrade GPUs?
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PB PM
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2017-10-24, 23:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
Lightroom CC still does not make use of GPU acceleration in any appreciable way...I have it turned off. Handbrake and other encoders also only minimally use GPU acceleration. So that leads to "3D simulations..." Specifically what kind? Games perhaps?

As mentioned earlier, I do all of my Lightroom work on a PC circa 2011. Only in the last month has a 6-core i7-2600K replacement been introduced. Anyone who has upgraded since 2011 really has no reason to upgrade CPUs again. GPU updates? Sure, a couple times from then till now would have made sense, but then again who buys Macs wanting the ability to in-place upgrade GPUs?
Yeah, we get it, your 2011 machine is wonderful, everything newer no better, and stupid to buy. Whatever, we get it, you are wonderful and smarter than everyone else. Happy now?

I am aware LR CC is messed up right now, had to turn off GPU acceleration since it was crashing the program. Before that, the previous version did (GPUz/etc showed a spike in load while rendering/exporting files), it's just a matter of Adobe getting it up and running with the newer Nvidia/AMD drivers. Yeah handbrake is CPU bound, point being? It's not the only part of the video editing process that can use the GPU, Resolve uses it during colour grading, rendering, player-back files etc. It also is one of the reasons I stopped using Mac's because you had to upgrade often to have a supported GPU. Movie editing software on Mac OS, particularly on the iMovie/Final Cut, uses GPU acceleration a lot, which is one of the reasons I used one for so long, it made working with videos faster.
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Eugene
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2017-10-24, 23:49

My main issue is when someone says Apple should release something worth buying while also presenting a contrary opinion that constant minor updates are a crashgrab by greedy corporations.

Is it Apple's fault that Mac shipments are holding steady or increasing despite the lack of a new Mac Pro or mini? I think it's mostly our fault for caring so much about products we probably wouldn't buy anyway. Neither the mini or Mac Pro are likely to give you the ability to upgrade video cards as easily as a DIY PC.

I think I have a firmer grasp of the reality of the situation than you, definitely. Does anyone else care if and when Dell releases a new desktop? HP? Acer? Nope. This is a POV unique to regular visitors of forums like these. We exist in a bubble where people think Macs drive iPhone adoption (this has never EVER been the case,) where people can simultaneously claim to be uninhibited by social media connectivity while simultaneous having their personal website, Twitter, blog and Skype attached to every post.

I think my views on this subject in particular have been pretty consistent over the past few years. I wonder when it is I finally gave up hope of an expandable headless iMac or Mac Half-Pro. I should search old threads.
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chucker
 
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2017-10-25, 01:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
I think I have a firmer grasp of the reality of the situation than you, definitely. Does anyone else care if and when Dell releases a new desktop? HP? Acer?
No, because they just do. It ain’t sexy or innovative or noteworthy. It just happens. New Intel CPU, new options from Dell. Want a 32 GB laptop? Get one. It won’t be thin and lightweight and have good battery life, but it’ll exist at all. For five or more years now, it’s been impossible to get a 32 GB laptop from Apple, and that’s largely on them.
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Eugene
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2017-10-25, 01:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
No, because they just do. It ain’t sexy or innovative or noteworthy. It just happens. New Intel CPU, new options from Dell. Want a 32 GB laptop? Get one. It won’t be thin and lightweight and have good battery life, but it’ll exist at all. For five or more years now, it’s been impossible to get a 32 GB laptop from Apple, and that’s largely on them.
Apple should definitely keep the MacBook Pro and MacBook on a reasonable product update cycle, and they have been. The lack of expandability isn't the result of a lack of updates...I'm sure Apple has plotted the bell curve for when 32GB of memory will be necessary to them.

But yes, I also think it is a reasonable expectation that 32GB memory options exist now (though Apple would still only include it CTO on the highest end model.) Philosophically Apple has been wrong here for quite some time, since Jobs was still at the helm.
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Mac+
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2017-10-25, 09:32

You can trace that back to his first stint even! Apple has always been stingy on base RAM.

I remember advice from a lecturer when I was younger about buying a Mac. He pulled open a draw revealing all the useless RAM chips he’d had to replace since he upgraded.
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chucker
 
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2017-10-25, 13:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac+ View Post
You can trace that back to his first stint even! Apple has always been stingy on base RAM.

I remember advice from a lecturer when I was younger about buying a Mac. He pulled open a draw revealing all the useless RAM chips he’d had to replace since he upgraded.
But it’s not just the base RAM. Not only can I not upgrade it aftermarket because it’s soldered on — I can’t even order any configuration whatsoever with more RAM. There is no possible 15-inch MBP configuration with less than or more than 16 GB.
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Eugene
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2017-10-25, 16:57

The lack of a 32GB option or expandability on the MacBook Pro is not the result of delinquent updates, so it’s a different issue altogether. With a mean of 303 days between updates (259 if we isolate the one 527 day gap,) the MacBook Pro is clearly Apple’s most oft-updated hardware line...updated more frequently than the iPhone.

It’s also something that can be explained by their desire to keep things thin/light with a bit of planned obsolescence added in.

The lack of a Mac mini update since 2012 or Mac Pro update since 2013 can’t really be explained at all other than assuming Apple doesn’t really care about those Mac form-factors.
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