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"Ow, ow! Don't tase me, bro!"


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View Poll Results: Were police justified in tasing this disruptive student?
Yes, I think police 'were' justified in tasing him. 20 30.77%
No, I don't think a taser should have been used in this incident. 45 69.23%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

"Ow, ow! Don't tase me, bro!"
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Windswept
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2007-09-19, 13:12

I imagine many of you have seen coverage of this guy disrupting a Senator Kerry 'question and answer session' by refusing to cooperate and by raising a ruckus.

I personally think he acted like the world's biggest self-absorbed spoiled brat. I cringed as I watched his appalling display of "oh-look-at-me" attention-seeking histrionics. I hope his mommy is happy at the obnoxious creature she has produced with her obviously excellent parenting skills. Ugh. I am embarrassed that he is an American college student.

He refused to cooperate, and resisted loudly and *aggressively* police efforts to remove him from disrupting the entire assembly.

Even when police had wrestled him to the floor, he continued to resist as hard as he could; and I personally feel they were justified in going to the next level to control his behavior, using equipment they'd been given for unruly, uncontrollable individuals.

They warned him that if he didn't cease his violent struggling they would use the taser; but, again, he refused to heed their warning.

Some people don't agree with the use of the taser on this guy. I do, and I hope it hurt like hell. But I thought I'd put up a poll to sample opinions on the board. I'm curious to see how others feel about his being tased.

This was a university setting, and after the killings at Virginia Tech, I think campus police are more proactive when someone on campus starts acting in an irrational manner.

Btw, before he started speaking, he handed a video camera to someone in the audience and asked her to film him.

I heard somewhere that he - a communications major - has a history of civil disobedience and resistance, but I haven't looked into that info at this point.

So, do you think police were justified in using a taser to control this unruly guy who continued to yell disruptively and resist arrest, or not?

Thanks for any replies. Poll up soon.


http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/off...taser.tale.cnn
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Bryson
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2007-09-19, 13:16

Was he, at any point, threatening the life of the officers? (It's difficult to tell from the video, but given that he was unarmed, I'm guessing no.)

Tasing a guy for being rude?

Hell no.

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GrayDiggity
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2007-09-19, 13:22

Well, I did not agree to the tasing until I read this article that makes it sound like the guy wanted to be tased. He was just creating a scene. I now agree with Windswept; I hope it hurt like hell.
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Windswept
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2007-09-19, 13:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
Was he, at any point, threatening the life of the officers? (It's difficult to tell from the video, but given that he was unarmed, I'm guessing no.)

Tasing a guy for being rude?

Hell no.

I don't really think tasing is restricted to someone who is endangering lives. I think tasing is intended as an effective mechanical method for briefly disabling someone who is unruly, disruptive, and refuses to cooperate with police.

Last edited by Windswept : 2007-09-19 at 13:36.
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AWR
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2007-09-19, 13:35

It is more polite than 5 officers getting their fists in, and with much less lasting damage.

That said, the kid is obviously a self-important drama queen who wasn't throwing his own punches. I don't know if he need to be tased - in fact, in hindsight it's prolly probably exactly hat he wanted. A BIG YOUTUBE HIT.
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InactionMan
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2007-09-19, 13:40

Uh, no. Tasers were supposed to replace guns as a non-lethal means of disabling someone. Would the cops have shot someone for being an obnoxious twat? Hopefully not. But if they did they'd be in an assload of trouble for shooting someone that wasn't a threat. Just because they have tasers it doesn't mean they should be allowed to get taser happy.

Also, I hate cops and will almost never side with them. So that's my bias.
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psmith2.0
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2007-09-19, 13:40

I'm of the opinion - now, more than ever - that most college students should be tasered weekly (if not daily).



I'm sure this is just a silly stunt, another plug for the "YouTube generation" (thanks, Time...you were so on top of that), but he's an idiot, no matter what his reasons and motivations were.

Zap him again, just for good measure. I won't tell...

He should be, just for saying "bro" in that way way that guys like him do. You just know he's got a John Mayer CD in his car and wears puka shells and a backwards ballcap. Little bastard. I'd zap him the rest of the afternoon.



InactionMan, our own little "down with the pigs!" rebel for the forum. Nice. Hope you never really need one; I'd hate to think they took their time arriving to the scene of your six-on-one 2:00am assbeating. It's been my experience that those who "hate cops" are usually the ones up to shady, low-rent shit to begin with...cops "spoil their fun" (or income).

Well, there's my bias...
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thegeriatric
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2007-09-19, 13:53

If you warn someone to stop doing whatever it is they are doing or else, and they ignore the warnings. Then they get what they deserve.

If it stopped the police from using more force to restrain him then maybe he suffered less.

I used to be undecided.....But now I'm not so sure.
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2007-09-19, 13:57

Tase every one of the 'Tape this so I'll get a bazillion hits on YouTube' asshats.

That is all.
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alcimedes
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2007-09-19, 13:57

Sorry, but if that had killed him it wouldn't have seemed as justified. I have a hard time believing that 6 officers wouldn't be able to hold that little prick still enough to get his hands behind his back.

Tasers can kill people. That's why they're supposed to be the last resort before you shoot someone. They aren't supposed to be the first thing you do when someone doesn't obey you immediately.

The kid was a twit, but the cops were out of line.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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Dorian Gray
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2007-09-19, 13:58

After watching the video, I'm shocked the police used a taser here. Not only was he not in any way, shape or form a threat to anyone, he was being held by fully six police officers. He was resisting arrest, and pretty mildly by the appearance of the video (i.e. it was pretend resistance: he never once threw a punch). The police themselves referred to his actions as merely "squirming". I think the director of the conference over-reacted in asking the police to intervene, the police over-reacted in friggin' arresting him, and massively over-reacted in using the taser.

Really, when it gets to the point that you can't cause a ruckus at a conference without being tortured by thugs in uniform, you have to wonder what freedom really means. I mean, the guy didn't even start shouting naughty words or something equally heinous. He just stubbornly insisted on asking Kerry a question.

InactionMan, I don't hate all police officers, though many of the ones I've personally dealt with deserve all they get from the public. I've also dealt with a couple who have been the very example of what a police officer should be, but they seem to be in the minority.

AWR and thegeriatric: if six police officers can't arrest someone, who wasn't even seriously struggling, without using their fists, then why do we have a police force at all? Their job is to deal with these situations professionally, not cause far more problems, as happened here.
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Windswept
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2007-09-19, 13:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I'm of the opinion - now, more than ever - that most college students should be tasered weekly (if not daily).



Well, I thought 'this' was an interesting excerpt from Gray Diggity's article:

Quote:
In the 12-page report, which gives accounts of the incident from the perspective of eight different officers who were present Monday afternoon, Officer Nicole Mallo writes that Meyer would only resist officers when cameras were present.

"As (Meyer) was escorted down stairs (at the University Auditorium) with no cameras in sight, he remained quiet, but once the cameras made their way down stairs he started screaming and yelling again," Mallo wrote.

...he asked, at one point, if cameras would be present at the jail.
What a publicity-seeking creep.

If any media organization ever hires this toad, I will go out of my way to boycott their productions.

Last edited by Windswept : 2007-09-19 at 14:27.
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RowdyScot
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2007-09-19, 13:59

I think pepper spray would have been just as effective. I don't recall anyone dying from pepper spray. We've had several deaths to tasers, however.
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Wrao
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2007-09-19, 14:01

All in favor of changing this thread's title to "Ow, Ow! Doctor said I wasn't supposed to be tased there!"?

All opposed?
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709
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2007-09-19, 14:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian Gray View Post
He just stubbornly insisted on asking Kerry a question.
Well, what the CNN tape doesn't show is that he ran up to the side mic and started yelling questions while another student was in the midst of asking their own. Apparently time was running short for questions and it was made known that the other student's questions would be the last ones. So he had to act fast if he wanted to get his stunt in.

Quote:
Meyer, a senior telecommunications major from the Fort Lauderdale suburb of Weston, has a website featuring several homemade videos.

In one, he stands in a street with a sign that says "Harry Dies" after the latest Harry Potter book was released. In another, he acts like a drunk in a bar while trying to pick up a man dressed in drag.

So it goes.
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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2007-09-19, 14:15

Does any of police officer even know how to press on nerve? I understand that if you press on nerve (e.g. the nerve just behind your jawbone), you can easily incapacitate anybody, whether they're a 90 pound weakling or 900-pound gorilla (well, gorilla may not have same anatomy, but you get the idea). It's Martial Arts 101, isn't it?
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Dorian Gray
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2007-09-19, 14:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709
Well, what the CNN tape doesn't show is that he ran up to the side mic and started yelling questions while another student was in the midst of asking their own.
Ah, well that's different. Tase him to death then!

I didn't know he had behaved rudely. After all, he thanked them for turning his mic off, so his mother taught him something, Windswept.



I'll never agree with the use of excessive force, particularly by the police, and this is an example of blatant excessive force.
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GrayDiggity
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2007-09-19, 14:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by InactionMan View Post
Also, I hate cops and will almost never side with them. So that's my bias.


Most people I know that "hate cops", do not actually hate cops, but have a problem with obeying the law. They just take it out on the enforcers of laws. It is not the cop's fault when he is simply doing his job.
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RowdyScot
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2007-09-19, 14:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post
Does any of police officer even know how to press on nerve? I understand that if you press on nerve (e.g. the nerve just behind your jawbone), you can easily incapacitate anybody, whether they're a 90 pound weakling or 900-pound gorilla (well, gorilla may not have same anatomy, but you get the idea). It's Martial Arts 101, isn't it?
This is true, but I'm not sure they teach that at police academies.
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709
¡Damned!
 
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2007-09-19, 14:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian Gray View Post
Ah, well that's different. Tase him to death then!

I didn't know he had behaved rudely.
Exactly. It was supposed to be a nice Q&A, not the bloody House of Commons.
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Windswept
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2007-09-19, 14:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
Well, what the CNN tape doesn't show is that he ran up to the side mic and started yelling questions while another student was in the midst of asking their own. Apparently time was running short for questions and it was made known that the other student's questions would be the last ones. So he had to act fast if he wanted to get his stunt in.
Apparently, he was in line behind various other students waiting to ask questions, and barged ahead of all of them to get up to the microphone.

Town hall meetings have rules, but this guy basically had no interest in following *rules*. He wanted to do exactly what he felt like doing, which in this case, included completely taking over and disrupting the discussion forum by his antics.

The angle of the video I've seen repeatedly on tv shows more clearly just how forcefully and persistently he was pulling himself out of the grasp of officers.

Last edited by Windswept : 2007-09-19 at 14:33.
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BuonRotto
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2007-09-19, 14:26

Unfortunately, being an asshole isn't illegal, it's protected. Some people relish it, like others might brandish outrageous firearms on their property or cheat on their spouse.

As far as taser = torture, at least in theory, pepper spray and taser are about on equal terms. As far as the risk of death, it depends on where you're tasered.

I'm on the fence about whether it was excessive, but if were in the audience or Kerry, I should be allowed to stuff a sock in the guy's mouth just as well. Just being an asshole back to the guy only makes more assholes in the room.
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Banana
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2007-09-19, 14:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by RowdyScot View Post
This is true, but I'm not sure they teach that at police academies.
Well, what do they teach?

"well, you clench up your hand so you have a fist... Now apply it on the dummy's face. Repeat until it's a bloody pulp."

I'd expect that the academy would at least discuss about anatomy and weak points that can be used to effectively restrain a unruly person. Besides, someone already pointed out that one could just use pepper spray, which is much more benign (long term benefits issues notwithstanding) compared to jolting him.

Also, someone should have had thought of proverb "Too many chefs spoils the broth". I'd bet that if they just had two officer manhandle the guy, they'd do better job than six officers together.
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Souflay123
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2007-09-19, 14:30

Okay, after watching the video, they went about it in the wrong way. my god, I am very much not on the side of the state. but anyway if in school be it college or whatever if they tased someone for being a annoying, or rude when asking questions I would be perpetually on the ground twitching.
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InactionMan
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2007-09-19, 14:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayDiggity View Post


Most people I know that "hate cops", do not actually hate cops, but have a problem with obeying the law. They just take it out on the enforcers of laws. It is not the cop's fault when he is simply doing his job.
I have no problem obeying the law. But there's too many instances of cops using excessive force and behaving far worse than the citizens their arresting. Canadian cops are actually some of the worse when it comes to reacting to citizens protesting and we hear about it a lot in our press. There's also been a lot of press in Canada about cops using tasers on marginalized section of society sometimes resulting in death.

What's worse is the cops in the instance seemed to know that this kid was being a shit and trying to get tasered and they were stupid enough to give him what they wanted. If anyone should be punished for their stupidity it should be the cops for falling for this kids ploy.
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RowdyScot
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2007-09-19, 14:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post
Well, what do they teach?

"well, you clench up your hand so you have a fist... Now apply it on the dummy's face. Repeat until it's a bloody pulp."

I'd expect that the academy would at least discuss about anatomy and weak points that can be used to effectively restrain a unruly person. Besides, someone already pointed out that one could just use pepper spray, which is much more benign (long term benefits issues notwithstanding) compared to jolting him.

Also, someone should have had thought of proverb "Too many chefs spoils the broth". I'd bet that if they just had two officer manhandle the guy, they'd do better job than six officers together.
They may go over it, but as a martial artist, I can tell you the opportunities don't always make themselves present, and even when they do, one may not remember to utilize nerve points. It unfortunately takes precision that isn't always possible in the heat of a fight. This seems to be one of those cases where it could and should have been done, but how often do you *ever* see cops utilize it?

Edit: To add to that, not every martial art uses nerves as a target. It can really depend on what arts cops are taught for hand-to-hand combat. Remember that this isn't the military. Martial arts may only be taught in a seminar-type setting. If this is the case, cops may be reminded about nerve points once or twice a year.

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psmith2.0
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2007-09-19, 14:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuonRotto View Post
Unfortunately, being an asshole isn't illegal, it's protected. Some people relish it, like others might brandish outrageous firearms on their property or cheat on their spouse.
I always go by the "your 'right' to be an insufferable a-hole ends when it bleeds over into my space/comfort/peace-of-mind" line of thinking. More of us should, frankly...a lot of this crap that goes on wouldn't be. There are ways to act in public, and there are ways not to. It's that simple, and it's universal and it's been around since the beginning of time. Just because we have cell phone cams, YouTube and horrible examples set by reality TV and celebrities, it doesn't mean everyone just runs around, doing whatever they want, with no consequences or fallout.

And that the rest of us have to simply "put up with it", or "learn to deal with it". Screw that. I deal enough as it is...

I'm not quite ready to give up to the dickwads of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuonRotto View Post
As far as taser = torture, at least in theory, pepper spray and taser are about on equal terms. As far as the risk of death, it depends on where you're tasered.
Well hell's bells...something has to be allowable to some of you people, right? I mean, do we just completely sit back, in the interest of being "above it all and exceedingly civil" and let the shitheads run the show? I always hope for the day that some smart scientist or group comes up with perfect "harmless weapon" to use against people; one that is somehow powerful enough to subdue the idiot in question but one that all the worrywarts and handwringers won't crap their pants over, and be in a knot about.

I'm not holding my breath. Sometimes it honestly seems like "just let people do whatever they want, if they're not a physical threat to anyone" is the only answer some people seem to put forth in certain scenarios.

That's not good enough, and I don't - and never will - accept it. Then you just have chaos and nuttiness, 24/7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuonRotto View Post
I'm on the fence about whether it was excessive, but if were in the audience or Kerry, I should be allowed to stuff a sock in the guy's mouth just as well. Just being an asshole back to the guy only makes more assholes in the room.
I'm not sure restraining an unrepentant, line-breaking, rule-chucking pain-in-the-ass is "being an asshole". Sorry, there was only one "asshole" in the venue that night, and he got dealt with.

I'm no fan of John Kerry, but I would never dream of disrupting his event or chance to speak. Isn't that one of the cornerstones people tend to get puffed-up and precious about during these trying, divisive times? People who do this stuff, IMO, are really the lowest of the low. It's only going to get worse, I'm afraid (see previous YouTube comments; there's now a showcase and audience for such behavior, including the Internet in general...tons of "videotape you and your friends acting like complete knobgobblers in public" sites out there).

Just ill-mannered, clueless attention whores. And God knows we've got enough of them already; do we really need more?

I kinda wish people like this kid were genuinely a bit frightened to do this kind of thing, knowing that their butt was going to be in a sling over it, and that people wouldn't put up with it.

There's funny. There's public pranks. I'm all for them, the right time, place, situation. Then there's just being a dick, for the sole purpose of attention and causing a ruckus. Not cool.
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Banana
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2007-09-19, 14:48

Well, agreed about precision required for nerve point. Would you at least think that if you basically kick him in shin or some other weak point you could then get in to utilize the nerve points, no?

Whether the case, I'd at least expect police to be sufficiently well versed in hand-to-hand combat to apply sufficient force even in heat. IOW, if one week of martial art training isn't enough for the police to restrain the asshole, then maybe they need more training.
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Koodari
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2007-09-19, 14:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windswept View Post
I personally think he acted like the world's biggest self-absorbed spoiled brat. I cringed as I watched his appalling display of "oh-look-at-me" attention-seeking histrionics. I hope his mommy is happy at the obnoxious creature she has produced with her obviously excellent parenting skills. Ugh. I am embarrassed that he is an American college student.
He engineered a scene, that's pretty clear, so attention-seeking yes. But self-absorbed and spoiled? Depends on his motivation, I'd say. What did he ask and what did Kerry answer? I think that's the most interesting part of the story, and without it the rest is not in context.
Quote:
He refused to cooperate, and resisted loudly and *aggressively* police efforts to remove him from disrupting the entire assembly.

Even when police had wrestled him to the floor, he continued to resist as hard as he could;
No, he didn't. From what I saw in the clip, he resisted but did not attempt to hurt the police at all. I don't call that aggressive.
Quote:
and I personally feel they were justified in going to the next level to control his behavior, using equipment they'd been given for unruly, uncontrollable individuals.
To be fair tasering is quite light use of force, but the police could have handled him without it. They had overwhelming numbers. There were definitely enough of them to carry an unarmed, nonviolent struggler out, and that is exactly what they should have done. The person who made the decision to employ taser should get a warning, couple days suspension or something, but it's not a big mistake.

One real-world factor that often drives use of slight excessive force is that the police are out of shape and don't trust their own ability to handle a situation using only their own body because they haven't properly refreshed their training for it. Then there's no other chance left besides deploying a tool and using that. I wonder if this could have played a part here?
Quote:
They warned him that if he didn't cease his violent struggling they would use the taser; but, again, he refused to heed their warning.
Giving a warning if there is time is standard procedure after the decision to escalate force, so this is business as usual. Doesn't make the decision correct.
Quote:
This was a university setting, and after the killings at Virginia Tech, I think campus police are more proactive when someone on campus starts acting in an irrational manner.
If by "proactive" you mean "more prone to use excessive force", then maybe. Otherwise VT is unrelated and that sentence sounds like police PR.
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alcimedes
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2007-09-19, 14:55

To me what it boils down to is this.

If he had died, would you all think tasering him was justified? Should have have died for what he did at the event?

Pepper spray would work just as well w/o a risk of death.

Restraining him isn't my issue. It's tasering someone for what to me isn't a good enough reason.

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