[kscherer]

Originally Posted by PB PM Not even close to being true.

Absolutely true. As usual, the "nerd/spec" nonsense holds center stage.

For everyday use (which is precisely what I stated) the M1 kicks the crap out of almost all of its competitors. To this day, 95% of all computer purchases are made by web-surfing, paper-writing, photo-hoarding, emailing, texting "every day" users, and the M1 will run circles around almost all of it's competitors for these uses.

At almost 3 years old, it is still far superior in all the important ways (within the everyday user space) to anything that Intel is capable of providing.

Notice that I never mentioned "gaming" or pro use.

[Kickaha]

Ah, I was looking for this:

"LTT did tests comparing the Mac Studio (M2 Pro Max), Mac Pro (M2 Pro Max) against a top of the line Windows PC with a top of the consumer Intel chip 13th gen (custom built, not from Dell or another maker). In almost every test, the PC was faster, not by just a little."

Not a Mac Pro rundown. Perhaps it's buried in there... will view.

[turtle]

Not to hate on LTT, but there is a large controversy out there over the validity of their data comparisons. I'd check others comparisons before accepting anything LTT puts out for a while and even then would compare to others.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got my first Windows computer in what, 30 years?, for school, and I cannot see how Windows would be faster for anyone. With the stupid "hover to select / hover to launch" which apparently cannot be deactivated (supposedly deactivated by default, and otherwise blamed on defective trackpad/mouse drivers), I spend more time closing windows and programs that pop up if I stay on the wrong part of the screen for more than a second than doing actual work. Not to mention learning to use a left/right click keypad as a left handed person. Sure, once in a program, and using the keyboard and ignoring the trackpad/mouse, Windows might be "fast". Or maybe, once in a program in full screen mode. At least Windows still has a command line.

Just saying, no matter what the raw benchmarks, there is still user interaction to consider.

[Kickaha]

Hear, hear.

Raw CPU speed is less important when it's being wasted on stupid shit, or the meatbag running it is slowed down by the UI.

Nanoseconds don't matter when the bottleneck is on the order of tenths of seconds.

I bought my first Windows machine as a primary machine for work, ever, despite doing Windows development at various times in the past. Frankly, the UI still blows chunks, PowerShell is functionally deficient but has that gee whiz factor, and daily I want to throw the fucking thing through the window. WSL is the only thing that saves it from becoming driveway chow.

So, basically... the situation hasn't changed much since the 90s. "Windows is cheaper (if you don't want fast) and faster (if you don't want cheap)!" "Yeah, but good luck using it."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Ah, I was looking for this: "LTT did tests comparing the Mac Studio (M2 Pro Max), Mac Pro (M2 Pro Max) against a top of the line Windows PC with a top of the consumer Intel chip 13th gen (custom built, not from Dell or another maker). In almost every test, the PC was faster, not by just a little." Not a Mac Pro rundown. Perhaps it's buried in there... will view.

Yeah as I said they did a few, that might not be the right one.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by kscherer Absolutely true. As usual, the "nerd/spec" nonsense holds center stage.

So when the truth hurts we throw insults. Got it.

[turtle]

I'm daily using a Mac still but run a Windows 11 VM for work things that require PC. I loath doing anything command line on the PC. Powershell does run on linux, but it isn't the same. For that I do use the PC, or one of my domain controllers.

[Kickaha]

Oh hell, I use PowerShell on my Mac, so it's not like I'm not familiar with it, but good god, it makes my teeth itch. It's a mechanism of last resort.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by PB PM So when the truth hurts we throw insults. Got it.

Pfft. Anyone insulted by 'nerd' isn't much of one. XD

Seriously though, some people care about the specs, and some people care about getting things done. That has never changed. To use the ever popular car analogy, some people have show cars ("It's got 600 hp, and look at all this chrome!"), some people have cars they use to get to work and otherwise don't think about, and both camps think the other is insane.

[turtle]

To be clear; I prefer geek. Thankyouverymuch.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by PB PM So when the truth hurts we throw insults. Got it.

Dude, it wasn't an insult. But, take it how you want.

It's just typical that all this "spec is the bomb" stuff never, ever takes into consideration what computers are actually used for by the bulk of customers.

PC's are rarely faster than Macs in general usage. Rarely!

The overhead required by anti-this-and-that, the OS bloat, and all the other inefficiencies of Windows slow the fool things down to a crawl even when the hardware is working fine. Most people (the vast majority) do not know how to "nerd" their machines into behaving and suffer beneath the weight of the Wintel empire until they believe it's just "normal". Meanwhile, old Macs get the work done even when the dummies are at the wheel.

Once you separate out the special use PC's (probably less than 5%), the argument collapses.

I sit in front of an M1 iMac every day and it still smokes any general-use PC I've ever encountered.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by kscherer Meanwhile, old Macs get the work done even when the dummies are at the wheel.

... you haven't met my family.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by Kickaha ... you haven't met my family.

Hey, I said Macs get the work done, I never said the dummies do.

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by PB PM So when the truth hurts we throw insults. Got it.

Absolutely. My middle name!

Is that not page 1 of The Internet and How to Use It book?

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by kscherer I sit in front of an M1 iMac every day and it still smokes any general-use PC I've ever encountered.

I was at my Dad's for dinner last night and I sat at his refurb M1 Mac mini for a while (Photos, Safari, Maps, etc.) and it was a rocket...launching, every action/task, zooming, rotating, etc. I even opened up Garageband and made some noise. I was impressed (but I use a 2.6 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5-based machine every day of my life, so I probably should be).

An M-anything is gonna impress me, my standards are so low at this point. "It boots up in under a minute? Awesome!"

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by psmith2.0 I was at my Dad's for dinner last night and I sat at his refurb M1 Mac mini for a while (Photos, Safari, Maps, etc.) and it was a rocket...launching, every action/task, zooming, rotating, etc. I even opened up Garageband and made some noise. I was impressed (but I use a 2.6 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5-based machine every day of my life, so I probably should be).

And yet, the M1 iMac appears to be underperforming. I don't know anyone with one, and haven't seen a single one in offices.

I really do think Apple's problem is that adding reasonable RAM and SSD upgrades inflates the price too much, and of course, that white bezel...

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by kscherer PC's are rarely faster than Macs in general usage. Rarely!

Look I like Mac’s as much as the next guy, I do own some, but I’m not going to sugar coat it and pretend they are the best computers in the in the universe. I use both, and oddly enough both my Mac and PC have the same Intel chip, guess what, the PC is faster. Apple does so many things to hobble performance it’s not even funny, from inadequate cooling, to slow SSDs and so on. I’m not talking about tests, or games (I’m not a gamer). I’m talking real world programs, like Photoshop, Lightroom, and more. So we can agree to disagree.

Apple makes beautiful computers, with a nice OS, much simpler to use for non-computer people, sort of. I do so much Mac tech support for my family it’s not even funny (both seniors and under 45s alike). Are Macs faster for web browsers? Not really, not if you use a good browser. Does the Mac handle files better? No discernible difference these days. Are the built in apps better, for the most part yes. Apple sure has tried to make them as bad as MS in the last 5-10 years though. Will we still be able to say that after the next big refresh of the apps? Who knows?

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Seriously though, some people care about the specs, and some people care about getting things done.

OK, but "it's faster!" ""not close to being true" "shut up nerd, you only care about specs" isn't the way I saw that conversation going.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Oh hell, I use PowerShell on my Mac, so it's not like I'm not familiar with it, but good god, it makes my teeth itch. It's a mechanism of last resort.

I give Microsoft credit on attempting to improve upon a 1970s' approach.

Not so much on the execution. PowerShell is too verbose and weird.

[Matsu]

I do believe that Apple tends to favour reliability in their machines. My 27” iMac just turned 10. It’s been on 24-7 for most of its life and churned through a couple hundred thousand images in Lightroom. My first iPad Air is still chugging along remarkably well, nearly as old, and the battery has been almost magically resilient.

I don’t think either my G4 and or first intel C2D PowerBooks were as good, frankly.

As design decisions leaned ever more heavily in favour of tight hardware integration, their consumer products found a new level of reliability. At first we criticized the decisions as anti-consumer, unrepairable, un-upgradable, etc… superficial, if you will, in the name of aesthetics only.

And sure, that’s been an important part of it, but, I think, taken as a whole, it’s afforded something else beyond user experience. Controlling the power and thermal characteristics of the machines among other things has eliminated certain failure points and given us devices that just last…

[Frank777]

This 'slide through' design still needs some refinement, but is the closest thing I've seen in bringing the PowerBook Duo concept to the current iMac-MacBook Pro line in ages.

In theory, you could have a big-screen iMac experience on your desk without having the distraction of two screens in front of you.

If this could be designed to work well, it might kill off the iMac line entirely. You buy the MacBook you want, and buy the glass dock accessory for it for when you're at home. No extra wires showing, no two mirrored screens on the desk to take up space and distract your eyes.

I'm a geek at heart, so it reminds me of a Jedi fighter elegantly attaching to a hyperdrive when needed.

[chucker]

Apple would much rather sell you two devices that work well than one device that's awkward.

[psmith2.0]

Going back to some of the windows discussion earlier, I admit I’ve not used it - I’ve never had to - as some (most?) here, but here is the one thing I can/will say, with zero fear of contradiction: the few times I do sit down and use it, as recently as three days ago (no idea which version…I truly don’t care), it just seems to fight me the entire time, and just get in my way. Windows (lower case) and messages/alerts just popping open constantly to annoy/distract me. I was trying to print out a stupid auto insurance ID card PDF and I was screwing around for 40 minutes. I just could not escape the barrage of “help” and “assistance”, which was anything but.

I literally barked, out loud, “you could best help me complete my task by shutting up and leaving me the hell alone for just 3-4 minutes!”

I was ready to start throwing stuff after 20-25 minutes of no progress. I don’t know if all that can be turned off. I assumed trying to figure out how would easily burn/eat up another 30 minutes, at least. My point is this person’s PC wasn’t set up to have all that stuff disabled, so I honestly couldn’t help but wonder “how does this motherf… actually ever get anything DONE?!? Is this why they’re always in such a gruff, pissy mood, fooling with/fighting their computer to such a degree, 6-7 days a week?”

I’d already be murdering strangers in the street if this was my computer-using existence! Just horrible, if that’s what it’s like. Just LEAVE ME ALONE, I don’t need my hand held or to be “assisted” to the point that it’s a total pain-in-the-ass and task-zapper. In what solar system is that “helping” me? I know YMMV, but every time I sit at a Windows-based PC (1-2 times a year out of some weird necessity/have-to scenario), it’s a fight and a struggle. I have never been able to just sit down, wake it up, bring up my document, shoot it to the printer and have it in my hands within 2-3 minutes, as I’d do on any Maccive ever owned/used.

It’s maddening. The angriest and most profane I’ve ever been in my life was the 60 minutes I fought someone’s Dell laptop, just trying to open/print a few things.

“How/why do you deal with this? Do you think this is normal and ‘just how it is? I promise you it isn’t!”

The devil you know, right. Some can deal with the pain-in-the-ass they know/are familiar with than the thought of learning something new, from the ground up. I suppose that applies to many relationships/marriages. “eh, I’d rather be miserable with an old ball-and-chain I know than to go through it all again, someone new, getting to know all their quirks, patterns, annoying habits, family members…”.

No, I don’t own a printer. I hate them. They’re just toner hogs, they always jam/act up when you least need it, and nothing I do really requires one. I email PDF and other files back and forth all day. So the 1-2 times a year I need to print something, the printer I need is always hooked to a Windows box and hilarity (no, murderous cussing rage) ensues.

[Anonymous Coward]

Originally Posted by psmith2.0 Going back to some of the windows discussion earlier

I recently got some Windows computers, because that's what it seems colleges treat as the standard for programming classes (but I'm stubborn and still use my Mac). I was watching some videos on how to set up some things, and I observed this:

Whenever the demonstrations on the computer are stopped for the author to make comments, the cursor is constantly kept moving quickly. I thought that this was just a nervous habit or something, but now I'm thinking, the only way to use the Windows operating system, when not actually in a program in full screen, is to keep the cursor from pausing anywhere, otherwise it will open a window or start a program. But it has to be kept in motion constantly and quickly.

I guess it is a matter of style, and some Windows users must think Mac users are crazy because we actually have to press a button to make things happen. "On a Windows machine, it's so easy, just point and the computer does things for you. And if we do have to make a choice, we have a right click button (just don't forget to change the settings if you are left handed)."

[drewprops]

I avoid these conversations now because there's no winning them, and if I can't win, then I don't want to play!!


...

[chucker]

Originally Posted by psmith2.0 it just seems to fight me the entire time [..] The devil you know, right

I think that's a big part of it — people who come from Windows to macOS feel, conversely, that macOS fights them.

[drewprops]

I think a 25th Anniversary Mac should be 14 inches wide by 16 inches tall and be named Larry click this link.


...

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by chucker I think that's a big part of it — people who come from Windows to macOS feel, conversely, that macOS fights them.

A month ago, I had my stepfather ask where the hell Apple hid the disk defragger, so... yeah.

That was an interesting conversation. He simply could NOT believe that it was not necessary. Ditto with RAM management. "But you know as well as I do that when you get a dozen windows open, things bog, so you have to carefully manage memory."

I sent him a screenshot of my laptop with ~60 windows open in Mission Control. He was absolutely certain I had mocked it up.

And THEN we got to the complaints about why can't the close window widgets be on the right side, why is there just one menu bar, etc, etc.

Sometimes people fight themselves.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by Kickaha A month ago, I had my stepfather ask where the hell Apple hid the disk defragger, so... yeah.

You are supposed to say it's in the Utilities folder, next to the .exe file virus scanner, and the USB driver source code debugger.