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Intel Macs aren't using BIOS


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Intel Macs aren't using BIOS
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Mr Beardsley
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2006-01-11, 00:49

Take a look here:

http://developer.apple.com/documenta...uid/TP40002217

It seems as though those who thought Apple would go with EFi were correct. I'm glad to see they didn't use the ancient BIOS for their new systems.

"Slow vehicle speeds with frequent stops would signal traffic congestion, for instance."

uh... it could also signal that my Mom is at the wheel...
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rminkler
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2006-01-11, 00:58

This is a big relief.
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Paranoid666au
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2006-01-11, 01:17

So does this means you can't install or boot Windows?
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infinitespecter
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2006-01-11, 01:44

If I recall correctly (feel free to correct my mistakes), it means you can't install any current version of Windows but the 64 bit aware edition, which probably won't work because it requires a 64 bit processor. Vista later this year will be able to boot from EFi systems, however.
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rminkler
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2006-01-11, 03:40

That's my understanding of it as well.
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powerbook911
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2006-01-11, 03:41

Wow. This is pretty interesting. So much for my idea of having a dual boot machine.
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copland
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2006-01-11, 04:57

Nice feature from Microsoft to not adopt new technology fast.
Can you hack XP to run on a EFI machine?

copland
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Bryson
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2006-01-11, 05:12

I suspect that the site owners take a dim view of requests for info on hacking software to do things it isn't allowed to do....even if it is made by Microsoft...
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Barto
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2006-01-11, 05:12

Edit: thanks Bryson

Also if you have bought a retail copy of XP, I can't see how anyone would have a problem, especially Microsoft, with you installing it on a Mac even if you have to "hack" it.

I was going to get a MacBook, now I'm not so sure. If I can boot Windows, I'll be getting one - that's the #1 feature I need.

The sky was deep black; Jesus still loved me. I started down the alley, wailing in a ragged bass.

Last edited by Barto : 2006-01-11 at 05:18.
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Bryson
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2006-01-11, 05:15

Go:

Architectural Differences > Extensible Firmware interface.

Or, for the lazy:
Quote:
Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI)

Intel-based Macintosh computers use extensible firmware interface (EFI). EFI provides a flexible and adaptable interface between Mac OS X and the platform firmware. This change should be transparent to most developers, but may affect some, such as those who write boot drivers.

For more information on the EFI specification, see http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/
EDIT: before people think I'm going nuts, Barto's post used to say something different.
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Barto
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2006-01-11, 05:39

Now it says something different again! Huzzah! (sorry)

Anyway, according to "Implementing EFI on 32-bit Systems" on Microsoft's Firmware Design page, EFI for x86 (and presumably x86_64) computers include a compatibility mode for old operating systems. Let's hope this is the case with the MacBooks, otherwise you'll have to wait until Vista to boot Windows.

The sky was deep black; Jesus still loved me. I started down the alley, wailing in a ragged bass.
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copland
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2006-01-11, 05:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson
I suspect that the site owners take a dim view of requests for info on hacking software to do things it isn't allowed to do....even if it is made by Microsoft...
Hell I didn't want a manual on how to install XP on a Yonah Powerbook, I don't think I can afford one any time soon. My question was more on academic level, as the Book uses EFI you would have to write a new bootloader (something emulating a BIOS, prior to booting XP)?
I am just curious.

copland
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Paranoid666au
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2006-01-11, 07:44

Hopefully someone will figure it out. It has to be easier than hacking the 10.4.3 intel dev to run on a normal PC.
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Barto
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2006-01-11, 08:03

It's not certain if there's anything to hack yet! First of all, Vista will support EFI. Second, there's a good chance there's a compatibility mode in the MacBook that allows XP/whatever else to boot as is.

The sky was deep black; Jesus still loved me. I started down the alley, wailing in a ragged bass.
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Louie
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2006-01-11, 09:16

booting windows on a mac
putting it on for the purpose of gameing only is ok and slightly understandable
what the hell would you use it for other than gamming anyways

spell checking?!?
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Moogs
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2006-01-11, 09:20

Hopefully EFI will make it easier for the Epsons of the world to write drivers.

And I agree that anyone who aids in the process of getting Windows running on Macintels should just stay on the Windows platform. You're not doing anything constructive by encouraging bs hackage. You want to run windows, buy a cheap PC....

...into the light of a dark black night.
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InactionMan
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2006-01-11, 09:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louie
booting windows on a mac
putting it on for the purpose of gameing only is ok and slightly understandable
what the hell would you use it for other than gamming anyways
Some people have jobs that require Windows. Some software only runs on Windows. If I can convince my employeer to get me a MacBook Pro basaed on the fact that I can install Windows on one partition, you better damn will believe that myself and many others will happily install it.

I'd rather use a dual boot MacBook at work than a freaking HP/Dell/IBM/Whatever PC.
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bassplayinMacFiend
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2006-01-11, 09:31

Right now, in order to log into work remotely I run Win2K in VPC because the remote login uses ActiveX controls. This is mind-numbingly slow. If I could get a computer that dual boots Windows and OS X that would be the best solution for me.

I don't have room for another computer + display so buying a WinPC isn't an option for me. Heck, my PowerBook is pretty much just gathering dust as it is and I think it's time to get rid of it. I have another laptop in my iMac G5 anyway.
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faust
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2006-01-11, 09:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louie
booting windows on a mac
putting it on for the purpose of gameing only is ok and slightly understandable
what the hell would you use it for other than gamming anyways
Research software like SPSS, WinCross

MBA software for my saturday classes

Remote access to my work computer

If I can get a dual boot Mac that would win out over the PortableOne unit I'm looking at now.
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Barto
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2006-01-11, 09:39

Like many others here, my purchase of a MacBook is solely contingent on the ability to boot into Windows. Australian tax software requires Windows as another example.

And Moogs, I don't know where your head's at.

The sky was deep black; Jesus still loved me. I started down the alley, wailing in a ragged bass.
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spotcatbug
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2006-01-11, 09:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by InactionMan
Some people have jobs that require Windows. Some software only runs on Windows. If I can convince my employeer to get me a MacBook Pro basaed on the fact that I can install Windows on one partition, you better damn will believe that myself and many others will happily install it.

I'd rather use a dual boot MacBook at work than a freaking HP/Dell/IBM/Whatever PC.
EXACTLY. It's not that I wouldn't love to only ever use Mac OS X, it's that I have to use Windows at work to make money (to eat, etc.).

Ugh.
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mrkamputee
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2006-01-11, 10:25

As much as I hate booting to several OS's, I hope it's going to become fairly easy on these new macs, no longer will I need to keep my beige box for cross-platform development work at home.
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torifile
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2006-01-11, 10:45

I, too, am waiting to hear if I can install my *legal* (thankyouverymuch) copy of XP Pro on the Macbook. If so, you'll see me jumping for joy never to have to use VPC again. What I'm really hoping for is the ability to run Windows apps right along side my OS X apps without having to put up with VPC. Louie, some of us live in a world where we have to use Windows. Not everyone is in high school.

If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong.
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ajebbatson
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2006-01-11, 11:06

I know the hardcore Mac afficiando would puke at the very concept of running Windows on a Mac, but for me the ability to dual boot Windows would be the killer app. Using Visual Studio for work through VPC would be a less then optimal ability and not being able to get my Half Life 2/CS:S or Google Earth fixes are pretty much deal breakers at the moment...although I am sure my technolust will overcome these rather significant downsides.

To be honest I am really suprised that Apple haven't added the ability to dual boot Windows simply because it would make switching a much less difficult decision - afterall, if you can set aside a few gigs to run those "essential" Windows apps then there is no technical reason not to switch. A missed feature if there was one!

Just to be sure I phoned up Apple Sales (UK) and they have a "Products released at Mac World" line and the answer from them is that you cannot dual boot Windows XP on the MacBook Pro either officially or unoffically. Can anyone get official confirmation on the Vista dual boot issue from Apple?
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neiltc13
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2006-01-11, 11:08

I'm not really sure it's Apple's place to try to describe the compatibility of an unrealeased product from a different company - especially when that company is such a fierce rival.
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Mr Beardsley
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2006-01-11, 11:32

Gateway shipped a PC that used EFI back in November of 2003, so we know it is possible to run XP on an EFI system. Whether Apple's new Intel offereings have the compatibility mode needed to allow this, I suppose remains to be seen.

Gateway article:
http://news.com.com/2100-1008-5131787.html

"Slow vehicle speeds with frequent stops would signal traffic congestion, for instance."

uh... it could also signal that my Mom is at the wheel...
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JLL
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2006-01-11, 11:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajebbatson
Just to be sure I phoned up Apple Sales (UK) and they have a "Products released at Mac World" line and the answer from them is that you cannot dual boot Windows XP on the MacBook Pro either officially or unoffically. Can anyone get official confirmation on the Vista dual boot issue from Apple?
That depends on Microsoft - it's their job to get their OS to runs on the various machines out there.
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ajebbatson
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2006-01-11, 14:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLL
That depends on Microsoft - it's their job to get their OS to runs on the various machines out there.
Not in this case if only because the incentive is all Apple's - if people can dual boot to XP the cost, hassle and risk of switching is greatly reduced so Apple sell more Macs and have more OS X users, whereas Microsoft would just be helping people rid themselves of the Windows addiction.

As the Developers Transition Kit shows, OS X has no problem running on XP compatible hardware but I am not suggesting Apple should use standard PC hardware, just that they should have provided a compatibility mode then switching to Mac is a no brainer - if you want to use OS X but you still need to use 3D Studio Max with acceleration now and then, you can but as it is now you can't.
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JLL
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2006-01-11, 14:40

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajebbatson
Not in this case if only because the incentive is all Apple's
It's certainly not Apple's plan to get people to use Windows at all. Most people won't dual boot, they'll boot into one OS and be done with it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ajebbatson
As the Developers Transition Kit shows, OS X has no problem running on XP compatible hardware but I am not suggesting Apple should use standard PC hardware, just that they should have provided a compatibility mode then switching to Mac is a no brainer -
Which means that a Mac would be locked into the general PC standard. Apple does not (and should not) care about other manufactures and other OS vendors when making a Mac. Should they dump the keyboard lighting in MacBook Pro just because it might not work in Windows? Or do you really think that Apple would like to make Windows drivers for all their hardware? Should they wait for Microsoft every time they want to introduce new stuff in their hardware to make sure that Windows is ready for the hardware? Apple can't make changes in Windows, so they'll end up building Macs around Windows instead of building Macs and Mac OS X around each other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ajebbatson
if you want to use OS X but you still need to use 3D Studio Max with acceleration now and then, you can but as it is now you can't.
Then wait for a native VPC.

- No matter where you go, there you are.
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Mr Beardsley
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2006-01-11, 15:15

I totally agree with JLL that Apple should spend no time or money trying to get Windows working on their systems. Apple switched to Intel to get better performance out of their products, not to allow Windows on the system as an incentive to switch.

"Slow vehicle speeds with frequent stops would signal traffic congestion, for instance."

uh... it could also signal that my Mom is at the wheel...
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