User Name
Password
AppleNova Forums » AppleOutsider »

Japanese etiquette?


Register Members List Calendar Search FAQ Posting Guidelines
Japanese etiquette?
Thread Tools
alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Send a message via ICQ to alcimedes  
2004-05-20, 20:49

So some questions. I've been immersed in asian culture most of my life, but a unique situation arose.

we've been invited to a friend's wedding over in Japan, and they also said they would pay for the flight and rooms. so what kind of things should i be aware of as far as weddings go? i haven't been to any asian weddings, and most of my friends aren't japanese, and i know there are some massive cultural differences.

so anyone from or familiar with Japan and their culture able to give me a few pointers here?
  quote
Windswept
On Pacific time
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Moderator's Pub
 
2004-05-20, 21:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes
So some questions. I've been immersed in asian culture most of my life, but a unique situation arose.

we've been invited to a friend's wedding over in Japan, and they also said they would pay for the flight and rooms. so what kind of things should i be aware of as far as weddings go? i haven't been to any asian weddings, and most of my friends aren't japanese, and i know there are some massive cultural differences.

so anyone from or familiar with Japan and their culture able to give me a few pointers here?
Hi Alcimedes -

Gon, over at .com, knows quite a bit about Japan. He is a Finnish guy. I think he has a Japanese girlfriend, iirc. If you can't go there, maybe I could PM him with your question. Whaddaya think?
  quote
alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Send a message via ICQ to alcimedes  
2004-05-20, 23:34

go for it, if you don't mind. after the sic'ed the cops on brad (the cop laughed, then apologized after getting the info he needed) i don't really feel like posting there any more.

i'll ask some coworkers as well, just thought i'd test the waters here.
  quote
craiger77
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Seattle
 
2004-05-21, 03:20

My wife is Japanese so I asked her what you should expect. We got married in Japan, but we just went to government office, paid about $25, signed some papers I couldn't read and went home so I don't have any personal experience with Japanese weddings. We would rather spend money on travel than ceremony.

Well, first off you should know that you will be expected to give money, big money, so forget about that toaster you had your eyes on. Since they are paying your way over there and putting you up in a hotel my wife says you should give a minimum of 50,000 yen. At current exchange rates that is nearly $500. She would probably shell out 70,000 yen in a similar situation, but it depends on the cost of the hotel they put you up in and where the wedding is held. If at a big expensive hotel then the bride and groom are probably paying around 20,000 yen for each guest. If they weren't paying your way there then the general rule is giving the couple what they are paying for each guest plus a bonus of around 10,000 yen or so. So if one person goes 30,000 yen is the rule and 50,000 for a couple. If you are a really close friend then it would be higher. Even though we didn't even have a wedding ceremony my wife's friends and family gave us over $5,000 so money is big in Japanese weddings.

Another thing you have to be aware of is that there are certain amounts that are okay to pay, but others are taboo. Japan is big on number superstitions so that is why you should pay in amounts that start with the numbers 3, 5, 7, 8, or 10. You should never never give anyone Japanese 4 of anything. This is the worst number because saying it sounds the same as the word for death. That also means if you want to bring a gift it should not be something like 4 towels. When you are in Japan you will notice that things like dishes usually come in sets of 5. 5 is the luckiest number. 9 is also a very bad number. The bills should be new with no creases. Also the number of bills shouldn't be a bad number either so don't give 4 or 9 notes. Actually, my wife says the number of bills is more important than the amount when it comes to being taboo or not. Best to stick with giving 10,000 yen notes.

There is also a special card for giving money at weddings that is very fancy looking. My wife says that they would probably be happy to get the money in nice looking wedding card you buy here just because it would be unique. If you get a Japanese card make sure you get the right one though...ones for funerals and being pregnant look similar and that would really be a huge embarrassment!! There is also a place on the card to write your name and the amount you are giving and inside there is an envelope that has the money in it. It is also important how you fold the card, one way for weddings, another for funerals. You will need the help of a Japanese to figure this out my wife says.

When you get to where the ceremony is taking place there will be people taking the money. Usually it is two people for the groom and two for the bride. If you are only friends with one of the two getting married you are supposed to give the money to that side. Also the card should be wrapped in silk called a fukusa which you undo and then present it. My wife says as a foreigner it won't be a big deal if you get these kinds of details wrong.

If you want to bring some sort of gift besides the money that would be okay, but don't bring it to the ceremony because it isn't expected there and the couple won't know what to do with it. My wife says there is often a more casual party after the reception that would be a good time to give a gift.

Clothes are big deal in Japan and you will be expected to wear a suit and tie. If there is another party after the reception you can change into more casual clothes for that.

Food should be okay...my wife says French or other European foods are more common than Japanese. She can't remember eating any sushi at a wedding either so if you don't like raw fish don't worry to much. Each guest will have a specified seat...you can tell your importance by how close to the wedding couple you are seated!

I would guess that you will be assigned some friend of theirs as a chaperone, most likely someone who speaks good English, and that person will be able to guide you through the whole thing. Also in my experience a foreigner can get away with a lot in Japan that goes against Japanese culture...in fact they will probably be disappointed if they don't have at least a few goofs of yours to laugh at!

Where in Japan is the wedding? If in Tokyo area or other big city where foreigners are common then no big deal, but if out in the boonies then it will be a whole different experience. If the wedding is held somewhere where they don't see many foreign faces then expect to be treated either like a celebrity or an alien from another planet. Safest rule is to watch what the Japanese are doing and follow suit. Where this breaks down is meals because the Japanese expect the guest (thats you) to start eating first. Many times I have had know idea how to eat the food set before me so I waited for the Japanese to start, while they waited for me to start and we got nowhere fast until I would finally just have to ask how to eat something. Don't ever poke your chopsticks in the rice and best not to cross them either. There will be a little holder to rest them on when not being used. As long as you keep eating they will find or buy food for you to eat so you have to tell them when you are full. You are expected to eat all the rice in the bowl so don't let them keep filling it up unless you can finish it. Also it is bad manners to eat out of the rice bowl while it is on the table...pick it up and shovel rice out of it into your mouth. Japanese are big on drinking too. If you don't want any more then turn your glass upside down, otherwise it will keep getting filled up. If your host fills up your glass of beer, then you are expected to fill his. This are just a few general things I thought to add since you will probably be spending time with Japanese outside of the wedding too.

If you have any other questions about Japan let me know. I have spent probably a year or so there in 10 different trips.
  quote
alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Send a message via ICQ to alcimedes  
2004-05-21, 08:29

wow!

thanks for all the great info.

the gal who's getting married lived with my family for two years, and my mom knows her mom from when they were in college together. i knew of a few of those cultural differences (like the #4) but hadn't heard of some of the others. there's always a lot to learn before traveling somewhere.

i'm not positive where the ceremony is going to be, i still need to get the rest of the details, but i'll be digging through books before we leave, just to be on the safe side.

my parents and i were talking and we're going to give money at the wedding, but also wanted to pool money together for a gift as well. my parents live in NM and have access to a wide variety of southwest artwork/pottery etc. is there anything along those lines that might make a particularly good gift? i really don't want to get her something generic, as they were like family for years while staying with us.
  quote
curiousuburb
Antimatter Man
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
 
2004-05-21, 11:38

If you're experienced with Asian culture, some of this may be self-evident, but here's a couple of things which haven't been mentioned in craiger77's quite thorough post.

The colour palette for festivals is different in Asia.

White is for funerals not weddings.
Don't wear white, or some may think you bring bad luck to the couple.

Many asian weddings require the couple to circulate at the reception and drink with each table (I've been to HK weddings with 40 tables)... smart couples drink cognac with only the first table, and then surreptitiously switch to tea for toasts with the remaining tables (in order not to be useless for the honeymoon evening).

Japanese society is still quite homogeneous and tends to reward conformity over individuality. Your friends may be more 'traditional' or more 'western', but the cultural environment tends not to celebrate iconoclasts per se.

Be aware of the concept of "face", as in the desire not to 'lose face' (embarrassed or shamed). While not explicitly stated, the underlying desire to avoid situations where one might 'lose face' can be reflected in a seemingly reserved and conservative attitude. For example... although some Japanese understand English, if they feel a lack of confidence over their usage/pronunciation/diction, some will refuse to speak it out of concern they'll get it wrong and 'lose face'. The effect of this can be seen at times when folks nod as if they understand you rather than publicly admit that they don't (and thus lose face). Don't presume that everybody who seems to clue in is actually following, but whatever you do... don't push the issue and force a confrontation that might embarrass them.

The corollary to this is that it is always preferable to 'give face', particularly in social situations. By praising the qualities of a person and publicly crediting them for competence, dedication, skill, etc, you are offering them props in such a way that one could say your are earning credits with them. Relationships where mutual respect is gained by building people up have a self-reinforcing effect which reflects well on you to others as well.
(ie. paying respects to grandparents endears you to other generations)

In thinking of face as a kind of ledger system, their offer to fly you out and pay for your hotel might be considered a mark on their side of the page. The expected response might be that you return the favour and offer to pay expenses if they come your direction (for honeymoon or vacation). They host you... you host them... balance. This is traditional in some areas.

Hope this helps give you some ideas, or prompts more comment

edit: and I think culturally unique native artwork might make a nice gift,
particularly if there's some significance to the piece that makes it 'yours',
but also something they'll be able to share and impress guests with.
(of course... space is at a premium in Japan, so nothing massive)
  quote
Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2004-05-21, 12:10

Since I cannot add anything to the advice column (I was going to mention the part about the numbers and not pointing your chopsticks at someone when you set them down)... I will just say this:

Once the drinking and eating starts, don't stare if someone near you starts slurping their soba noodles. If you're not in a westernized area, some Japanese (particularly men) may eat rather voraciously in some respects... it can be a little shocking - even to a westerner - so just maintain a grin and drink your Saporo.


...into the light of a dark black night.
  quote
craiger77
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Seattle
 
2004-05-22, 10:28

While some of what curiousblurb wrote can be applied to Japan, I am going to have to do what I often find myself doing with my Chinese friends, which is chide him for equating Chinese culture with Asian culture. At these times I like to ask if this is really how things are in Turkey, Iran, Borneo, Sri Lanka, or Siberia?? Probably not. The differences between Asian cultures is as significant as any differences between an Asian and western one.

In Japan the two prominent religions are Buddhism and Shintoism. In general bad things like death are handled by Buddhism and good things like marriage and birth are handled by Shintoism. White being equated with death is part of Buddhism. These days most Japanese weddings start with a Shinto ceremony that is usually only seen by family and close friends. Here the bride will be dressed in a white kimono and the groom in a black one. After they will have a western style ceremony where the bride is again dressed in a white western style wedding dress. While I would probably leave that white tux in the closest there is no reason to shy away from white at a Japanese wedding.

As for face, there is of course some of this concept in Japanese culture, but not to the degree you see in Chinese or some other Asian ones. What face is is what we would call pride and I think all cultures show varying degrees of its importance. Just don't insult your hosts and you'll be fine The most important thing to remember when trying to understand Japanese culture is that it has evolved in a place that is isolated on an island that has been crowded for a very long time. Most of the culture is designed to keep people who are living jammed next to each other from being at each others throats all the time. The Japanese have what they call a public face and a private face. It is very frustrating sometimes trying to get them to tell you what they really feel because they want to preserve harmony by telling you want they think you want to hear. This is different then what you would find in nearby countries like Korea and China where people even to our standards can appear to be quite rude in public. Personally I usually prefer that to not knowing just what the hell my Japanese friends are thinking.

What is important in Japan is gift giving. This can drive you crazy there because you are always having to think what gift you need to give in various social situations. Visiting anyones home you are expected to bring something. Usually just some cake or fruit which you will see for sale at shops at every train station because people often buy it at the last minute. If you get a gift then you are expected to return something of equal value at some later date. Japanese spend a huge amount of time agonizing over the proper gift and how and when to present it. This is part of the Japanese culture that equates to what curious blurb called the ledger system. It often leads to fights between my wife and I because she is reluctant to receive any sort of help or gift from my friends and family because she feels we will then "owe" them to much. I keep telling her that I have been helping these people out for years and they are just now having a chance to pay me back, but that doesn't help much since she wasn't around when I was doing things for them. One thing that you will probably be surprised with at the wedding is that you will get some rather significant gifts from the bride and groom. While guests give lots of money at Japanese weddings, much of that is returned to them through the cost of the meal they enjoy and the gifts they receive.

Paying for transportation and accommodation for guests who must travel from far away to a wedding is pretty standard according to my wife so don't feel they are doing anything extraordinary just for you.

I have been living in New Mexico for that last year and there is a lot here that would make a nice gift. Like mentioned, just make sure it is small since Japanese are limited in space. Personally I like the more subdued stuff here like the all black pottery. The good stuff is pretty expensive and might make a good gift.

My wife says it would be fine for you to have the monetary gift come from you and your parents combined in one big amount. My advise would be to have a small gift from you and a different one from your parents though. Since there is the connection between your Moms I would recommend a small present from your Mom for the brides Mom to be given outside of the wedding. Remember if you are to visit anyones home if you want to follow Japanese custom then it is best to have a gift to give then to. It doesn't have to be anything expensive and food or wine is a good choice since it is consumable and won't take up space they don't have. Just don't bring any of those New Mexican chillies...the Japanese have a low tolerance for hot food unless they live in southern Japan near Korea.

Finally, I wouldn't worry to much about most of this stuff. Since the bride spent two years here she should be familiar with westerners and won't expect you to be "Japanese." They will be delighted when you follow their culture, but probably disappointed if don't do things to remind them of their time in America. Part of inviting you may even be a way for them to add a bit of "color" to their wedding.
  quote
Windswept
On Pacific time
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Moderator's Pub
 
2004-05-22, 11:04

Wow. Is it just me, or does all that constant gift-giving seem exhausting?

Do westerners living in Japan just get so used to giving gifts that it becomes second nature to them, or do they frequently find themselves stressing out over the decision of what would be the perfect gift?

Seems like a lot of added stress that we don't have to deal with in the west.
I'm not putting their tradition down, at all. I'm just glad I don't have to do it!

I just think of how much trouble I have buying gifts for my brother. He always needs clothes, but I pretty much gave up on trying to figure out what clothes he might like long ago. I almost *never* picked the right thing.....and spent a fortune on all those mistakes.

So now I stick to tools. The last thing he needed was some kind of specialized wrench for rebuilding his classic motorcycle. I think it ran about $120. So I just gave him the money. Not the way the Japanese would do it maybe, but he' s happy, and so I'm happy.
  quote
curiousuburb
Antimatter Man
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
 
2004-05-22, 12:20

craiger77 has provided some valuable clarifications (my bad for conflating Chinese and Japanese traditions... well spotted)

on the "ledger" concept for gifts, there is a parallel here among the West Coast Native tribes... the Potlatch. Potlatch ceremonies (once outlawed) are basically parties thrown by a host at which (s)he demonstrates his wealth by giving most of it away to his guests. The cycle repeats when (s)he becomes a guest at a neighbouring potlatch, where that host also gives away most of his wealth (returning some to the community in a continuous cycle)

got to teach... more later
  quote
craiger77
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Seattle
 
2004-05-22, 12:24

It is exhausting and it is not only westerners who find it so. Most Japanese I know hate the whole system, but no one has the courage to stop it. Japanese on holiday spend a huge amount of their time shopping for and worrying about what gifts to bring back to the people at home. It is probably the biggest cultural problem between my wife and I since she keeps trying to apply it here in America. As a typical male I hate shopping so getting dragged around trying to find the perfect gift that isn't needed drives me crazy.

Judging from the kind of useless crap I have received from Japanese friends over the years I am not sure that they try to hard to find the "perfect" gift though.

I read recently that the government in Korea is trying to end the practice of people giving lavish dinners for their friends where much of the food ends up being wasted which is kind of their equivalent to the endless gift giving cycle in Japan. I don't think the Japanese government would ever step in and try to change culture in that way though.

How things are presented is often more important than what is inside in Japan so the wrapping on things given as gifts are often very elaborate. There has been some effort to try to change this for environmental reasons since it makes a huge amount of waste, but not sure it is having any effect.
  quote
Argento
I puked at work.
Because I'm a pussy.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Head in a trash can.
 
2004-05-22, 13:05

Is it Kia?
  quote
alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Send a message via ICQ to alcimedes  
2004-05-28, 08:19

yeah, it's kae's wedding.

found out we're invited to the initial ceremony, as well as the second one.

should be a blast.
  quote
alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Send a message via ICQ to alcimedes  
2004-07-22, 15:52

OK, one last question. We're heading out in a few days, and I just wanted to see if anyone had a good suggestion for a gift for our host family.

I bought the bride and groom a mini iPod each, so that comes out about right money-wise, plus they're hard to get in Japan so they should be a cool gift.

I have no idea what to get our host family though, as a family gift. I want it to be something nice since they're flying us over, but nothing comes to mind. Once you leave the technology world I'm lost.

Any suggestions?
  quote
AsLan^
Not a tame lion...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Narnia
 
2004-07-22, 18:08

I dont know about Japan but in Korea authentic brand name clothes are very expensive, perhaps a matching set of clothing or from a nice brand like ralph lauren, claiborne, dkny or something similar. Like hiking or tennis outfits or something.

From what I hear Japanese fashion changes with the weather so ask your wife if thats a good idea or not...
  quote
curiousuburb
Antimatter Man
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
 
2004-07-22, 18:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes
OK, one last question. We're heading out in a few days, and I just wanted to see if anyone had a good suggestion for a gift for our host family.

I bought the bride and groom a mini iPod each, so that comes out about right money-wise, plus they're hard to get in Japan so they should be a cool gift.

I have no idea what to get our host family though, as a family gift. I want it to be something nice since they're flying us over, but nothing comes to mind. Once you leave the technology world I'm lost.

Any suggestions?
Nice call on the iPod Minis... they'll be a hit.
Did you get matching engravings?

As for the family gift, I'll repeat my endorsement for native art (maybe silver?) which clearly comes from your neck of the woods. I had thought maybe some crystal or artsy glass, but travel packaging might not be worth the stress.
  quote
Posting Rules Navigation
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Post Reply

Forum Jump
Thread Tools

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:19.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2024, AppleNova