Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
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This is where I see things going for sure which is also the main reason I think you don't see Apple jumping on the touch screen desktop computer just yet. Many have mentioned that Snow Leopard seems to look touch friendly and borrows UI from the iPhone i.e. Quicktime X.
Thoughts? |
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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Interesting!
Nice to see someone else agrees with what I've said all along about those touch-screen PCs. Yeah, it's "neat" when you use one for about two minutes in Staples or Best Buy. Try doing that crap all day and see how "neat" it is. If your arms are still attached... While I wasn't bonkers about that OS and layout, the underlying thinking - of using your natural hand and finger movements - sounds intriguing. To have just a single large "pad" in front of you (taking the place of your keyboard and mouse) and "driving" your computer from there really interests me. I wrote about this a couple of weeks ago...about how when you're typing or in an app that requires typing, you get a virtual keyboard (one that you can customize for languages and characters easily). But if you're in GarageBand or some other music app, the typing keyboard goes away and, instead, you get a musical keyboard or drum heads or whatever makes sense (guitar strings? ). When you're in iMovie, you get a timeline or frame views, and you just reach over with your fingers and drop effects/transitions onto clips. You see it happening on screen, in front you, in real time, instantly. I caught grief for saying so, but it's funny that the keyboard - with the same, in-place buttons - hasn't moved beyond what it is. But now, with Multi-Touch and so many other things available, a "Multi-Board" that can do, and become, anything you need is really fun to think about, and imagine. And using things like Photoshop and Illustrator in this way? Painting/airbrushing some photorealistic clouds with my right index finger, while my left index finger - via pressure or an up/down movement? - adjusts the flow and opacity or spray nozzle size, in real time? Or acts as an eraser, used in tandem with your paint strokes being applied by the other finger? Fingerpainting minus the mess (and erasing and undo capabilities). It would take a lot of companies getting on board to make it happen (Apple, then Adobe and others), but I think it would even be more fun and intuitive than using a pen tablet (which is already an improvement over the mouse). But once you remove all these plastic, battery-eating gizmos, you distill it down to what you'd do in kindergarten...the hands and fingers you'vef used since day one, only now you're using them in a very grown-up way, on your computer. Factor in gestures and "chording", and imagine all the things you can do, and control, in such a way. It just seems increasingly weird to me to hold a mouse and use a keyboard. I wanna grab, slide and push things... You can thank my phone for that, I guess. |
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Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
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Good stuff! Surely there are lots of details and assorted devils that will make his current clean vision more like everything we have today if it was to see real use, but it's still a great concept.
One thing I think could have been done better in the GUI, though, is that instead of just having a horizontal row to arrange things in it could also make use off the vertical. For example, you could switch between applications horizontally and between windows in the same application vertically. Apple and their current breed of multi touch trackpads might be able to make good use of this. |
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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I think so.
It's fun to think about how we might be using this stuff in 10 or so years. We'll look back and chuckle at how we currently go about it, I'm sure. A lot of things seem to be falling into place in recent years, to make me think we're on the verge of something like this coming along and changing so much of what we do, and how we do it. |
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Sneaky Punk
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Clearly some good ideas for overcoming some of the issues that limit the user, such as the mouse, but some of the other changes don't seem needed IMO. To me, a combination of the App switch, Expose and Spaces does more than enough to overcome the way windows are handled.
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
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True I think the horizontal window system is so-so, that's like having an accordion menu system for which you have to perform a three finger gesture until you get to the thumbnail view to access one in the whole order.
I actually think Expose is just fine, a four finger gesture and just touch the window you want and spaces would be so cool. That keyboard is so bulky, but I can't see them ever doing away with a physical keyboard completely anytime soon for one reason and one reason only. How would you touch-type on a flat surface? |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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Pssh. The future is obviously going to be controlling the computer with our minds. We'll all connect to what is by today's super computer through a wireless connection, which will patch our visual field directly into the mainframe. Or something like that.
That would be cool (as long as it's not MS running it - there's no way I'd let them connect to my brain!). Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
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It totally lost me when I realized you would have to remember how many fingers to use to do different tasks. That's way too complicated. Also, if the pad is really 1-to-1, then if you have a 24" monitor, is the pad 24"? That seems quite large.
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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I was thinking about it -- humans don't do visual multitasking -- the system isn't high throughput enough. Compare it to our sense of sound which can register differences in thousands of hertz, our visual system is 30ish hertz.
What this effectively means is that while we can use multiple fingers for doing things locally, it will always come down to us focusing on a single point. If you watch the video, all actions ultimately come down to a single finger clicking a single point, ie a mouse. I do think that it might speed up operating system use to some degree, but I do not think it will affect most of our input (from the keyboard)... |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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What I could see working is what people have been thinking Apple's up to - somehow incorporating some sort of multi-touch with the mouse to replace the scroll wheel. That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me. Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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Not a tame lion...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Narnia
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Why can't operating a computer be like driving a stick shift? For some people, driving a stick is the perfect melding between man and machine, information coming in from all senses: the sight of the road, the sound of the engine, the resistance of the pedals, and the changes of the force acting against ones body. That information is all processed in real time and decisions that are made are then executed with each hand and each foot. The amount of information being processed must be an order of magnitude greater than whats being presented on a computer screen. To achieve the same level of synergy between man and computers I think there needs to be a dramatically different way of presenting and processing that information. Right now, every computer presents "documents" to the user but reading is too slow and takes too much focus, perhaps we need to move to a symbology rendered in a 3D space before we can start to reach the same levels of information processing and interaction. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
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I think the real question when it comes to multi-tasking in a GUI is not so much how well we as humans can theoretically process multiple tasks at once, but rather being able to manipulate objects more than one way on the screen.
For example lets say you have a screen with two windows overlapping each other and you want to move the background window to the front while resizing it to be larger and at the same time move the foreground window and make it smaller. How would you do that in one stroke operation with a pointer? With multiple inputs you could activate the background window while pinching and scaling it up with one hand and do the same to the other window only decreasing it with the other hand. Or lets say you want to drag and drop a file into another directory. Touch and hold the file with one finger while you navigate to the directory with the other. Right now you would have to use spring loaded folders or cut and paste while not bad, were talking about one-to-one direct manipulation here. We do this type of multi-tasking everyday with our real desktops. |
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Custom User Title
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At home
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It's true & false at the same time. You can actually "focus" on one point as Swox pointed and that applies to eyes and hands too. BUT, your hands and eyes can do "support" task. Like pscates suggested, you could use your 2 hands to draw things. Sure you only use one to actually draw but the other hands can do support tasks like moving the canvas around, zooming, controlling tools parameters, etc. If you thinks about it, when you're working with one hand, the other always do some support task. Same thing with the eyes. You focus on one point but you get a blury zone where you can see/guess things.
Dave Mustaine :"God created whammy bars for people who don't know how to solo." |
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Rocket Surgeon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Canadark
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I like the hardware ideas - but I'm not convinced by the "line" of windows. That thumbnail view would soon be too small to use with a large number of windows, and you would lose the ability to put 3 or more windows next to each other to compare or copy-paste data back and forth - something I do every day.
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geri to my friends
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Heaven
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Nice idea.......But us old folks have enough trouble typing with 2 fingers, and at least my mouse only has a right and left click buttons + scroll wheel.
Now you're talking about me using all ten fingers/thumbs.................come on... I used to be undecided.....But now I'm not so sure. No trees were harmed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
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I like the idea of using the multiple fingers. Apple already has a portion of this on their laptops and it doesn't take long to get used to pinching, scrolling, etc... It does come natural quickly. What about actual typing though.. If the multi-touch worked well enough you might be able to get rid of the keyboard. THAT would take a long time for people to adapt to I suppose.. JTA |
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M AH - ch ain saw
Join Date: May 2004
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I think he's grasping at straws here, trying to solve a problem nobody has. With regards to the window accordion, at least.
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne
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I quite like the "con10uum" (although not the name) although I think ideally you'd have multiple continua or something along those lines. You could use a four-finger gesture to flick up and down between them. The GUI obviously needs to be developed a lot further before it can compete with the likes of OS X but I see potential in it.
The voice-over said the touch surface was 1-1 however the visuals showed it (at the end) as around the same size as the keyboard. I think the latter would be practical. Would work well in a 15-17" laptop too. A 13" laptop would have to have a thin version, which would essentially be the MBP trackpad about 2-2.5x as wide. |
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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It's funny because 10/GUI uses the word "arbitrary" so much. Much of their complaints are just that. To me there is simply nothing wrong with a cluttered desktop. You can make it as neat as you want to be, and I have no trouble seeing bits of existing windows from other apps peaking out from behind a random browser window.
As well multitouch is far less useful when it isn't directly linked to the display. A large 1:1 touchpad is a contrivance just like a mouse is. The only plus is non-linear manipulation, which is funny since they seem hell-bent on reducing the visual interface to just that. The mouse, keyboard and large trackpad/tablet can all exist concurrently, that's what peripheral buses are for. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne
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I think the point is that when windows are placed "arbitrarily" placed on a 2D plane, it's less simple to navigate them than when they're on a 1D continuum. With the 1D arrangement, all you have to do is flick back and forth. In a 2D arrangement, there's no "natural" way of navigating between windows which is both simple to conduct, and represented visually. Exposé comes close, but the windows can be too small to properly see what's in them if you have several similar windows open and moreover the positioning of them is arbitrarily decided by the software, meaning users get a very limited mental construct of where each window is spatially positioned (as this changes each time), which would aid with navigation.
Having the clutter of bits and pieces of window sticking out from behind each other is a very minor annoyance, but it is not the crux of the matter in this video, which is the natural flow of navigating between them. I hope my point is clear? It's a difficult concept to explain. EDIT: I'm not saying the 1D system is perfect, or even better, but it certainly has some advantages over a 2D system, as well as disadvantages. But I think with some further development, including the addition of multiple continua or something of the like, it could be a winner |
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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The point is we are given another dimension called memory to help us fill in the gaps, arrange things, then recover them. Removing a dimension doesn't serve any purpose to me. Expose does break down when you have many windows open, but so does "Con10uum." They only way to see your entire workflow is too zoom out completely, and that means you really are manipulating the vertical space anyway.
So in the end they don't even solve the "problem" they're telling you exists. The one thing they accomplish is making a pretty presentation. |
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Veteran Member
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I kind of agree with Eugene. They've told us what we already know, and created a solution that we've all already thought of.... Big deal.
I bet all they have actually created up to this point is a wad of patent applications so they can claim ownership over IP which should really be in the public domain. And that is what the "nice presentation" is part of. I'd also go on to say that if you have to hover both hands over any kind of touch pad all day long you are going to get sore wrists..... It's not like using a keyboard where you can rest on your palms...... 'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take' Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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Because human memory is dynamic. If I move something around my desktop, then place another window on top of it, I still know it's there. If you can't place an object you just moved a minute or two ago, then I just don't understand how your memory works. As well most of us have sufficiently large displays where dozens of windows can be open and still have corners visible. We also tend to put oft used windows/objects in the same desktop space every time. That's what memory and habit do for us.
This of course does not apply to the people who follow the Microsoft Windows paradigm of having every freaking window maximized and using a switcher/tabber mechanic to page through them. That's as one-dimensional as it gets. The point about zooming out is that you have to do it to see your entire workflow. That makes it no better than Expose in OS X. In fact it makes it worse because windows will shrink at a much faster pace. Also why limit yourself to a linear analog if you have a non-linear workflow? The more I think about Con10uum, the more I hate it. It's a contrivance developed by people who think different is automatically better than what already exists. EDIT: And if you do have a linear worflow, that's one thing nice about MS Windows, the taskbar allows you to easily organize your tabs from start to end no matter how many windows are cluttering your desktop. Need to go back to step one, just click on tab one! It does the same thing without mugging your entire screen. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne
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My point about memory was that, yes, when the user moves something it works fine. But when the system moves something (Exposé) and it changes every fricken time you use it, your memory isn't going to help much. Exposé (particularly the Snow Leopard version) suffers from this issue. And you need to view your whole workflow at once why? |
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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If you have a workflow that requires manipulating multiple large windows, then you use the tools of the trade that are best suited to it. This means a large display if you need one. If you get by with a 13" in screen for your daily grind then more power to you, but I have to wonder what makes up your workflow?
When Expose moves something you use visual differentiation along with labels to identify the correct object or window. This is no different than having to squint at the entire workflow you pinch/zoomed out in Con10uum. In addition if Apple gave the Dock the ability to arrange open windows as a list a la the taskbar, then Expose could share that same order when invoked. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne
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Sneaky Punk
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I'd agree that OSX works best when you have a 20" or larger screen. That said, when you combine spaces and expose, using a 13" screen is fine.
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