[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by 709 That was my gut reaction too. I love the idea of a high-speed rail, but when the Administration likened it to what's happening in Europe I wanted a comparison of distance between cities. So I roughed this together (it's pretty close to scale):

And of course there you have *how* many countries all throwing money into the pot? I'd love to see a GDP/km^2 comparison.

[Moogs]

Originally Posted by Kickaha How about after the first bomb in cargo sends a 150mph kinetic shrapnel weapon with a few metric tons of mass hurtling through a major city corridor? Bomb on plane: 100-200 dead. Bomb on train in metro area: a few times that, plus building damage, plus taking out a major transportation system. Plane taken down: rest of planes can keep flying. Train taken out: rails need to be replaced before any other trains can run."

You sound like someone who is afeared of mass terrer campaigns. The good news for HSR fans: it's painfully easy to blow up buses and train depots in this country... why bother with the logistics and risk of trying to blow up a train in mid-cruise when it will be [much more difficult] to make that happen most likely? Sure you could argue the fatwah-squad will go for maximum PR but evidence in Israel suggests otherwise. There is zero security on city buses in this country or on most subways. There will be a lot of security for HSR trains.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha And of course there you have *how* many countries all throwing money into the pot? I'd love to see a GDP/km^2 comparison.

EU: 3.9974275171518121 B$USD/km^2
US: 1.458689296330482 B$USD/km^2
Canada: 0.127094836384177 B$USD/km^2

Based on Wikipedia's PPP GDP values.

[Naderfan]

I would love a high speed train system. I used to take the Amtrak from Milwaukee to the Twin Cities when I was in college and it was nice. It took about the same time as driving, but I didn't have a car. Anyway, trains beat planes when it comes to space (you have so much leg room on a train!) the ability to get up and move around, service, etc. If trains could start competing with time, I think they'd get a lot more service, especially for those 5-6 hour drives.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Moogs You sound like someone who is afeared of mass terrer campaigns.

No, the only mass terror campaign I worry about is that parlayed by our own authorities to keep us in a state of constant fear.

I'm just pointing out that a HSR makes a dandy kinetic weapon. (Yes, I know it's nice that I use my powers for good, and not evil. I get that a lot. Hell, you can hijack a plane with a piece of rock that TSA won't look twice at, if you think it through.) Expect someone in the gummint to run with this to the (il)logical conclusion that we are in imminent danger, and impose the same sorts of idiotic and almost useless security restrictions on trains as we have on flights.

The good news for HSR fans: it's painfully easy to blow up buses and train depots in this country... why bother with the logistics and risk of trying to blow up a train in mid-cruise when it will be [much more difficult] to make that happen most likely? Sure you could argue the fatwah-squad will go for maximum PR but evidence in Israel suggests otherwise. There is zero security on city buses in this country or on most subways.

Yeah, but sitting in the station you don't get the impact of either the kinetic energy backing shrapnel in a crowded environment, or the psychological effect of a really visually stunning event. A building blowing up is one thing, but a 150+MPH shrapnel weapon at ground level is quite another. What sticks in your mind the most from 9/11? I'm willing to bet for most people it's the visuals.

More than a few zeppelins had burned, but it took the film of the Hindenburg to make people *REALLY* freak out about it.

There will be a lot of security for HSR trains.

Absolutely. Anyone who thinks that it will be buy-and-walk-on is deluding themselves.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by chucker EU: 3.9974275171518121 B$USD/km^2 US: 1.458689296330482 B$USD/km^2 Canada: 0.127094836384177 B$USD/km^2 Based on Wikipedia's PPP GDP values.

Danke. So the EU has effectively 2.75x the money per km^2 to put into transit, given the same proportional allocation.

Or, alternately, the US has to spend 2.75x the GDP% that the EU does to cover the same space as effectively.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Danke. So the EU has effectively 2.75x the money per km^2 to put into transit, given the same proportional allocation. Or, alternately, the US has to spend 2.75x the GDP% that the EU does to cover the same space as effectively.

Yes, with the caveat of ignoring the crass discrepancy between West Coast / East Coast US on the one side and Entire Frigging Rest US* on the other. (I know you know. Just pointing it out.)

*) Give me credit for not saying "Jesusland", would ya?

[curiousuburb]

Tunnels or an elevated special track (maglev ideally) are probably necessary.

Ground level crossings are bad enough with nimrods trying to run the light/jump the gates. At 450+ kph...

[Xaqtly]

I love going places on trains. There is a plan to build a high speed train that runs from Las Vegas to Anaheim, but nothing has come of it. It's too bad, because it would really ease the car traffic on the 15 between SoCal and Las Vegas. I know I wouldn't drive if I could just take a high speed train.

[709]

Originally Posted by curiousuburb Tunnels or an elevated special track (maglev ideally) are probably necessary. Ground level crossings are bad enough with nimrods trying to run the light/jump the gates. At 450+ kph...

True. A friend of mine is an engineer (like, choo-choo engineer) and he always has stories about hitting shit. Apparently it's a pretty common occurrence (which surprised me, really).

[zippy]

I would love to see this happen, but I don't think it ever will. The 8 Billion in Obama's stimulus is, from numerous estimates, anywhere from $40-70 billion short of implementing HSR in California alone.

I don't see that there is much to accomplish with this $8B.

The US is far to large and sparsely populated to feasibly accomplish anything remotely close to what Europe has. It's the same reason we are so far behind in other areas: broadband penetration/performance, wireless coverage, etc..

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Xaqtly I love going places on trains. There is a plan to build a high speed train that runs from Las Vegas to Anaheim, but nothing has come of it. It's too bad, because it would really ease the car traffic on the 15 between SoCal and Las Vegas. I know I wouldn't drive if I could just take a high speed train.

I'm surprised - with all the money in Hollywood, SoCal and Las Vegas - that a central hub from the area (Riverside? San Bernardino?), serving L.A., Orange County and San Diego residents and a direct, high-speed line to Vegas (and back) isn't in place.

Call it the Party Train (or another "p" word, if you want to get crude and tacky about it...and considering the destination in question, you probably do).

Two lanes, coming and going. Trains leaving (and returning) every 4-5 hours? Picking up drunks and "woo-hoo!" shirt-lifters, dropping them off in Vegas, returning broke, partied-out types back to SoCal so they can get to their bank and free clinic the next morning, etc.



I love the idea of trains. But as someone upthread mentioned, I just can't see it happening for 5-6 reasons.

Unfortunate, but true.

[Xaqtly]

What I heard is that both Disney and a number of casino owners in Vegas were going to contribute to this. A mean come on, a direct line between Disneyland and Vegas? There's no way it wouldn't be insanely popular.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Xaqtly What I heard is that both Disney and a number of casino owners in Vegas were going to contribute to this. A mean come on, a direct line between Disneyland and Vegas? There's no way it wouldn't be insanely popular.

No kidding. And Disney could market themselves as Vegas Daycare.

[curiousuburb]

Would that make a Disney-Vegas midpoint station Limbo, or Purgatory?
Or would that require a Southern line trip?

[Kickaha]

I dunno, where's 709 located again?

[zippy]

I like the 'idea' of train travel, but in my one experience with it, the reality was sooooo far from the idea, that I will likely never use train travel again. Unless they fix it.

I rode the Empire Builder Amtrack line from a small town in N Montana to Chicago. We were supposed to have a 6 hour layover in Chicago then catch a new train to S Illinois. But, we completely over-shot the 6 hour layover and missed the next train.

As for the other parts of the ride: The train stunk and was nasty-dirty-sticky everywhere. The on-board meals in the diner were alright, but pricey, and were kind of a pain to arrange with the whole reservation system. The 'snack bar' was a pathetic mix of pop-it in the microwave crap and a few candy-bars, in a cramped room at the bottom of the 'scenic lounge' car. And their hours were terrible. It seemed that when you were hungry and wanted something - they were closed. Oh, and they quickly ran out of just about anything that was remotely edible.

The seats in coach did not recline enough to actually be comfortable to sleep on. And sleeping in a community area is not easy to begin with. We could have opted for a sleeper, but they wanted an arm and leg for that.

We were not allowed to turn the seats to face each other as they were intended to for 'safety reasons'. So our family of 4 (at that time) could either sit front to back, or across the aisle. We opted for across the aisle for easier communication, but that added the wonderful pleasure of having our 2 year old wanting to constantly walk back and forth - when others were trying to get through.

I'm sure there's more that I have blocked out in my mind. Suffice to say that our 24 odd our journey was SUCK, SUCK, SUCK!



I had visions of something closer to what I had seen on TV/Movies. Take 'White Christmas' for instance. The scene where they are in a real lounge car - you know, with a bar and a bartender - having drinks is what I assumed we would find in our lounge car. Not even remotely close.

[Kickaha]

The only section of the Amtrak system that is decent is the BosWash corridor. Enough people use it as a primary commute system that it is well maintained, clean, and on schedule.

South of DC, however, you switch to rails owned by CSX, who, like everyone else in the nation, leases their rail rights to Amtrak.

And the cargo freight carriers pay more to CSX than Congress is willing to, so they get priority.

Cargo coming through? Amtrak waits on a siding. Every. Single. Time. This has turned the 10-11 hour Raleigh->New York trip into 18-20 hours at times. It's an 11 hour *drive* for god's sake. (Which is what we do now. Cheaper, too.)

BosWash corridor is nice, and the Accela trains are *fabulous* in that area, but outside of that region? Echhh. Nasty, dirty, and late.

[Naderfan]

Speaking of other things getting priority, on one of my trips we had to sit for over an hour outside this little town in Wisconsin. The reason? There was a fire and the fire hydrant was on the other side of the tracks. Who plans that?

[Maciej]

Originally Posted by Naderfan Speaking of other things getting priority, on one of my trips we had to sit for over an hour outside this little town in Wisconsin. The reason? There was a fire and the fire hydrant was on the other side of the tracks. Who plans that?

Ugh, I hate wisconsin.

[Kickaha]

Eh? I've been to Madison several times and loved it each time. And come on. CHEESE.

[Maciej]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Eh? I've been to Madison several times and loved it each time. And come on. CHEESE.

There's a reason they refer to Madison as 78 square miles surrounded by reality.

This is coming from a resident of Wisconsin, not just some Sconnie basher.

Anyway, back on topic. I think that some of the reasons above are why we should focus ourselves on improving local public transportation. Rather than on interstate transportation.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Maciej Anyway, back on topic. I think that some of the reasons above are why we should focus ourselves on improving local public transportation. Rather than on interstate transportation.

I wasn't aware they were mutually exclusive?

FWIW, nobody has seriously proposed a cross-country HSR line yet. Rather, the government has proposed ten corridors connecting population centers, which could then conceivably be connected at some time in the far future. This would likely happen along either coasts, first, with lines criss-crossing the midwest being the last to be built (Chicago Hub aside). So this isn't exactly transcontinental, "golden spike" stuff we're talking about here.

But is it still worth exploring? I think so.

And Capella, there is a proposed corridor in Florida.

[Dorian Gray]

My girlfriend travels a lot for her work, usually by TGV. She generally arrives at the station 15 minutes before departure time (there are no security checks at all here, Kichaha). The stations are usually a lot easier to get to than the airports. The trains are ultra-reliable (way more so than airlines), pretty quick (around 300 km/hr average on many routes), have few or no stops, and offer more passenger space than airliners. Ticket prices are pretty good though perhaps higher than I expected. There's a reason why low-cost airlines have failed in France...

I think we should be looking at something a bit more ambitious for the US. I understand many people fly coast to coast, so here's something ambitious: a perfectly straight, evacuated train tunnel from coast to coast. No intermediate stops. The train would have pressurised cabin capsules that rotate within the carriage, for passenger comfort under acceleration forces. It would accelerate at 0.5 g for half the journey. Somewhere under Kansas the speed would be stabilised for a minute to rotate the cabin to its deceleration position. Over the second half of the US the train would decelerate at 0.5 g, arriving at the other coast in an hour (time based on virtual envelope scribbling; could be inaccurate as I can't really remember the equations). Tickets would sell for $49.99. Any objections?

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray My girlfriend travels a lot for her work, usually by TGV. She generally arrives at the station 15 minutes before departure time (there are no security checks at all here, Kichaha).

Hi, have you met our government in the last few years?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by curiousuburb Ground level crossings are bad enough with nimrods trying to run the light/jump the gates. At 450+ kph...

I'll bet you could design the train & track so that the engine car absorbs most of the real damage, and that particular nimrod won't make the same mistake again.

[JohnnyTheA]

As one of the earlier posters said, short-run transportation infrastructure improvements would be better. In the US there is much business travel from coast to coast. Most people chalk up a whole day for travel to their destination, and another day back home. Even for shorter trips there you have to go through connecting flights which can as long or more than a coast-to-coast flight. So people already plan on wasting two full days for a biz trip unless it someplace really close. One has to ask themselves, could rail really accomplish this? LA to NY is ~2500 as a crow (or 757) would fly. It would probably be more like 3200 miles via rail. You would have to travel non-stop at 320 miles/hour to make the trip in ten hours. With all of the stops they would have to take and parts of the country where they couldn't go that fast (like the Rockies), you would be lucky to have service that could do the trip in 18 hours.

That means sleeping compartments and really really high cost. Nobody but the really high level executives will get this kind of travel expense. And those guys take their own chartered flights or corp jets anyway...

It might make some sense for the east coast where cities are close together like Europe but not at all for the west. Maybe LA to Vegas but thats really a shot in the arm of the gambling industry.. Tax payers shouldn't pay for that IMO...

Lets put the money into local transportation solutions like they have in DC and SF. I'm against all this stimulus but if they are going to spend the money it makes sense to spend it where it is needed most. In Los Angeles 405, which is one of the most busiest freeways in California, STILL goes down to only three lanes in each direction. Put a BART-style train running down the center of each freeway and there will be less congestion on the freeway.

I think there are those in the current admin that are against the sort of transportation projects that help people live in remote suburbs. There are all kinds of social and environmental things they have against it but it is where the money is best spent... Not "we want to be like the Euros" HSR plans...

JTA

[zippy]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray I think we should be looking at something a bit more ambitious for the US. I understand many people fly coast to coast, so here's something ambitious: a perfectly straight, evacuated train tunnel from coast to coast. No intermediate stops. The train would have pressurised cabin capsules that rotate within the carriage, for passenger comfort under acceleration forces. It would accelerate at 0.5 g for half the journey. Somewhere under Kansas the speed would be stabilised for a minute to rotate the cabin to its deceleration position. Over the second half of the US the train would decelerate at 0.5 g, arriving at the other coast in an hour (time based on virtual envelope scribbling; could be inaccurate as I can't really remember the equations). Tickets would sell for $49.99. Any objections?

'Reality' would like to disagree with you.

I like what you're selling, but we're gonna need a lot more of what you're smoking.

[JohnnyTheA]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray so here's something ambitious: a perfectly straight, evacuated train tunnel from coast to coast. No intermediate stops. The train would have pressurised cabin capsules...

Are you a fan of the late Gene Roddenberry's "Planet Earth"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8kv_NR-LNo and "Genesis II"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQihv3PivQY pilots are you?

Awesome stuff...

JTA

[Partial]

Would love this. Chicago's current train system isr eally nice, would love to be able to get their in a short time span from the Ill Mil.