Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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As I mentioned, you have to do something to keep people grounded, prevent suicides and deal with emerging mental disorders. Food, Water and Meds are important, but are not the only considerations in situations like this. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hmm?
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Do you really believe that Bibles are a good way to combat suicides and mental disorders? As opposed to, say, professional psychiatric help, or counselling? Do you think Narcanon is a good way to combat drug addiction? Do you think handing out copies of the Qur'an would be an appropriate solution to preventing suicides and emerging mental disorders?
I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea. |
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I shot the sherrif.
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I think there are a lot of people of faith in Haiti that would be more thankful for a Bible than the amount of food or medication they could have shipped in that Bible's place.
Faith is a very important part of a lot of people's lives, and while I know that this board is generally very anti-religion, for a variety of reasons, there are people who's faith means more to them than any single meal, or even a week of meals. They're worried about their souls and the souls of their loved ones, hearing/reading stories in the Bible would for those people have much longer term benefits than eating a meal. While I may not have any faith in any God, it's pretty short-sighted to say then that if I wouldn't get any benefit from it no one else would either. I think many in this thread are underestimating the hope, focus and strength that people can draw from their religion. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if you get your results form a certified psychologist or God, what matters is what you do with it. Google is your frenemy. Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Example from my real life: my brother has absolutely no coping mechanisms for real life interaction. He does whatever he wants and if someone asks him to do something he doesn't want to do, he retracts into a shell and doesn't respond, or gets very angry. He's essentially high-functioning aspergers. He goes and works, goes back to his flat and annoys his flatmate by shouting and laughing on Xbox Live until 3 or 4am, then he goes to bed, gets up and goes to work. He can't deal with paying the rent or bills, so my parents organise that for him. He can't sustain relationships with people. He doesn't do his washing unless someone forces him to. If something comes up that he feels he can't cope with (heaven forbid he should have to travel somewhere by train alone, working out the timetables would give him a literal break down), he just retracts into a shell. He was encouraged into church by people who suggested it would be good for him to have a network of people to lean on, as well as the faith element. He went for a few years, and whilst he liked the idea of a man in the sky looking out for him, he found it hard to believe. He now sees a private counsellor every week and is really coming on in certain areas. I guess my point is that faith can get you so far, but it's not something you should use in lieu of real, actual help. It's very easy to get wrapped up in it. Frank wouldn't disagree with me when I say that Islam or Mormonism is the definition of false hope. So he can hopefully understand why I and others say the same about Christianity. When I grew up, I put away such childish things. Quote:
I don't criticise people for having faith. If you want to have your own private unfounded beliefs then that's up to you. I don't like seeing it pushed on other less fortunate people. I know we've got the Spanish to thank for that in Haiti, but that doesn't mean we should brazenly perpetuate it. If someone thinks they need a Bible to get through a disaster like this then they need real help. Probably more than can be given to them by a relief worker, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea. |
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Avast!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York?
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This thread is rapidly becoming vicious. Can we all take a step back? My mom, prior to the Haiti crisis, was involved in handing out hand-cranked radios there. The catch: they were tuned only to Christian stations. It always annoyed me. Now, it doesn't so much annoy me as it does raise my hope: please tell me that the programming is all information on how to get food/water/shelter and find your dead. If it is, what--to me--was a misguided attempt to limit the reach of Christian compassion can be changed into a life-saving act. If not... The Christian community has one thing in this crisis that cannot be said of most others--no matter how many magic sky fairies or magic books or tall tales you think are involved--they hadn't been ignoring Haiti for the past 20 years, and had been trying to help long before the question became "a pound of food for a pound of books." I'm not saying they did enough--of course they didn't (see Crystal Cathedral, or, in my case, the really, really nice church on what must be multi-million dollar real-estate up on Mullhulland Drive). But they were trying, which is more than I can say for most people, myself included. Hopefully, the Christian community won't blow their chance to show the world that they are there to be compassionate first, and reach out to Haitians second, after people are safe, and long after the news cycle has forgot Haiti altogether. Or, more accurately, hopefully the number of Christians set on making misguided evangelism their number one priority will be outnumbered by the number of Christians who are helping first, and will offer any comfort later. Can we all agree that we at least hope that, given the realities of the situation, that's the outcome? That said, when I told my mom I routed my donation through my sister-in-law, who is Buddhist (and who was able to send it directly to a nurse on the ground there), and has been down on a number of medical missions trips with the nuns there (who once saved her from men with guns!), my mom said, "You know, I think most of your sister's charities down there are Catholic." This from my mother who refuses all Christmas and birthday gifts (we buy goats/latrines, etc. from WorldVision or sponsor children (a few of whom are Haitian) in her name instead) and gives far more than her 10% to charity on an already limited budget. God save the Catholic-hating, fully-compassionate, Protestant Midwestern woman! A contradiction the world will never solve. "How could you falter / when you're the Rock of Gibralter? / I had to get off the boat so I could walk on water. / This ain't no tall order. / This is nothing to me. / Difficult takes a day. / Impossible takes a week." |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea. |
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I shot the sherrif.
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I should also say, if people hadn't picked up on it by now, that I have zero religious beliefs. None.
I'm about as atheist as they come. That said, I also realize that I'm one of the very small percentage of the population that thinks that way. Most of the people in this world have faith in a higher power. I don't. That doesn't mean that I have the right to preach to them that they're stupid because they don't agree with me. They all fervently believe that I'm the one living in ignorance. So rather than say "you don't think like I do, therefore you're an idiot" step back and realize that for a lot of people, faith provides infinitely more than simple food/water/shelter. There's also a lot of "well, *I* wouldn't want this so I'm sure no one there would either!" which is also a bit presumptuous. Stupid side story. There was a woman trapped in the rubble for a week. She spent the entire time praying to God to help her out. They dug her out, and she's now alive. Do I personally believe that God intervened on her behalf based on her prayers? No. It's irrelevant though, because her faith is what gave her the strength to hang on when many would have given up. No one in that scenario is going to pray to their psychologist or therapist for help, and even suggesting that people as abjectly poor as those living in Haiti are going to be able to pay $x per hour to talk about their problems shows just how far removed we are from their lives. Google is your frenemy. Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me |
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Avast!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York?
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In return for our helping hand, some of us just want the glowing feeling we get from helping our fellow humans, some of us just want to be able to rest our minds that we did something for people in dire need, some of us want to avoid hell, and some of us want Haitians to come to Christ. But all of us want something, and who are we to judge if it's "icky" to want the glowing feeling vs. avoiding hell. So is it icky that we all want something in return for extending a helping hand? Maybe... but unavoidable, surely. Quote:
I certainly don't know your situation, but I'd wager that--like mine--it's better than most Haitians. Perhaps neither of us understand why Bible stories bring these people hope, or why, after some stability is restored, it might be necessary to hear about the God they have believed in. If we saw tens-of-thousands of bodies in the street, our kin dead, and the world we know destroyed, perhaps we wouldn't need it. But perhaps, given how these people have looked at life, they will. Putting aside childish games also means looking at the state of facts not as we might want them to be, but as they are. "How could you falter / when you're the Rock of Gibralter? / I had to get off the boat so I could walk on water. / This ain't no tall order. / This is nothing to me. / Difficult takes a day. / Impossible takes a week." |
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Avast!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York?
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Hmm... perhaps there is something a bit icky about putting your worldview on others. Is the line that you don't impose it on people in order to help others? In other words, that compassion doesn't discriminate? "How could you falter / when you're the Rock of Gibralter? / I had to get off the boat so I could walk on water. / This ain't no tall order. / This is nothing to me. / Difficult takes a day. / Impossible takes a week." |
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Ice Arrow Sniper
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How could there be a thriving Christian community in Haiti so desperately in need of Bibles if Pat Robertson says the earthquake happened because of godlessness and deals with the devil?
Authentic Nova Scotia bagpipe innards |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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I'm not saying someone is an idiot for disagreeing with me. I deliberately surround myself with people who disagree with me at every opportunity. If you can't kick the tyres on your views then you don't know that they're sound. When I was younger I voted liberal democrat in the first general election I was allowed to vote in, despite having Labour-voting parents. I've since thought about it and completely changed. I now vote Conservative. I'm not adverse to changing my ideas or holding my hands up and admitting I'm wrong. Religion has a lot of built-in booby traps to protect against that. However the point with religion is that it's either right or wrong. The minutiae of what it gives people becomes irrelevant if it's false or vitally important if it's true. Whereas everyone has a value between 1-5 on political views (even people who say they don't vote or don't have an interest have viewpoints on specific legislation), on religion it's 0 or 1. And either 0 is right or 1 is right. They can't both be correct. I think that's why a lot of people are sensitive about religion more than politics or sports. With politics or sports it's impossible to empirically say who's right and wrong. With religion, it is possible to put the matter beyond reasonable doubt. That's why they're people of faith. Quote:
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You could maybe say that all people who give charitably (whether time, money, other donations) are self-serving. I don't think a Charity is necessarily self-serving, as a whole. The people who work for Amnesty don't necessarily want to feel good about themselves. I donate to Amnesty and I don't tell anyone (this doesn't count, you have no clue who I am, and I don't give a shit what anyone 'on' the internet thinks of me). I don't do it to feel good, I do it because I feel empathy. If I was in that situation, I'd want someone to help. Do I feel good because I did it? No, not really. I could give more. I give to other charities too. It's not something to feel good about, it's almost an obligation. As an aside, where would the world be if everyone who gives 10% of their salary to their church instead donated it to a secular charity? I don't know what the figures are like for tithes, but I've got to speculate they're pretty high. Quote:
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*The golden rule is actually pretty shitty (and incidentally predates the Bible by a loooong time), a better rule would be "Don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself," as it's non-interventionalist. Quote:
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1. The infrastructure for getting shipments into Haiti at the moment is fragile by all accounts. Don't clog it up with non-essentials. 2. Pushing Bibles on people at their lowest point. For Christians this represents the fulfilment of a doctrinal obligation. To everyone else it's a predatory act. In the same way as Frank has already said he sees the E-Meters as a risible attempt to get money out of Haitians or aid workers. All the religions see each other as not really providing much more beyond superficial help. An Islamic charity handing out aid and Qur'ans. A Christian would congratulate them on the aid, and dismiss the Qur'an as mythology. Let's start embracing the way they all think about each other! Hagel's dialectic FTW. 3. Bibles and Christianity encourage people to put their faith in the unseeable and to have the hope of glory after death. Let's work in the now and let the gods take care of the glory after death part. We can provide real care, real aid, real food, real solutions and real support. Western nations and charities can help rebuild Haiti without foisting our notions of spirituality on them. I get the feeling I'm being cast in a sort of "YOU DON'T SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!!11" role here, like people who criticised the war in Iraq (although obviously I'm not one of those people.) I'm not saying that the aid religious charities are providing is bad or unwelcome. I'm saying we can do better, as a species. That's all. I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea. Last edited by Iago : 2010-01-21 at 16:30. |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hmm?
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1. Can altruism ever be selfless? 2. Can you ever help someone without imposing your world view, to some degree, on them? Of the first, I'd say yes it can be, insofar as altruism can be an act of instinct. I don't dive in front of the President to stop the bullet because I'm going to be hailed as a hero--I don't know if I'll survive. I do it because it's instinctive, and because I have accepted that his life is more valuable than my own. Similarly, I don't give to charities to feel good about myself. I do it because I recognise the plight of my fellow man and would want them to help me if I was in their situation. By and large I'd say a lot of people actually feel pretty guilty when they contribute to charity. They know they could give more. The second point is a really difficult question to answer at any level. We dealt with it a lot on a module about foreign policy analysis I did. I subscribe to paternalism (the policy of restricting the freedoms or, better, 'augmenting' the freedoms of subordinate nations and entities in their best interests) because it's unavoidable, and when it works, it works very well. With Charity I'd say it happens on two levels. The very fact that you are there helping someone shows that you believe it to be a worthwhile endeavour and maybe a virtuous thing to do. So there's an aspect you can't get around without sending anonymous, identical robots to help. The part which gets me is that religious charities go beyond that. They believe their mandate to help comes from God. Would they help if they didn't believe god was telling them to? I think some would. I think more wouldn't. Everyone thinks they're right in this situation. A lot of atheists, agnostics, and even moderate people of faith would say that to give without religious overtones is the best way forward. A lot of people of faith would disagree with that and would maintain that what they provide is absolutely the best thing. That's why I believe in paternalism. It makes the trains run on time He really is the heir apparent to Jerry Falwell. *spits* I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea. |
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I shot the sherrif.
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My point in all of this is that there are lot of people upset that Bibles are being sent, and arguing that they have no value in this situation.
I would stipulate that to people of faith a Bible is worth considerably more than nothing, and to many it would be worth more than the amount of food displaced in a shipment as long as the ratio of Bibles/food doesn't get out of hand. While they might be worthless to us, they aren't going to be worthless to everyone, and to a population that's 90% Christian they might be valued by many. Google is your frenemy. Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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I really can't believe, in two-thousand fucking-ten, we're really discussing Christianity (and monotheistic religion, in general) like it actually means something.
It's about time we shook off all this negative bullshit, don't you think? We'll never evolve as a species with this stupid crap hanging around our collective necks like an albatross. So it goes. |
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I shot the sherrif.
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Quite the persuader aren't you. |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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I don't remember "aggressively" disagreeing with anyone in particular, but thanks for that. I can be quite the bitch.
If all it takes is for me to say "HAY, YOUR RELIGIN IS BROK" for the masses to swoop in and burn me at the virtual stake, then, well, I guess my work here is done. I'm not trying to "persuade" anyone, btw. You're looking at the wrong person. So it goes. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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The question is how far you go to enforce that. That's a question humans have been struggling with for a long time. We shouldn't ban religion, but I think we should be doing a lot more to discourage unwarranted religious belief. Let's remove the charitable tax breaks for religious organisations. You want to do good? Do it secularly. Otherwise you can pay your taxes like everyone else. It'll still get you into heaven, you just need to ask your god to pony up some more money. Kids shouldn't be brought into religious congregations until they're 16 or older. Your child is your duty, not your personal blank canvas. You want to tell them about areas which aren't demonstrably right/wrong, like politics, sport, etc? Fine. You want to tell them there's a skyman with a booboo list checking who's being naughty and nice, and have others drum that into their heads twice weekly whilst their brains are at a vulnerable stage of development? Uh, no. I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea. |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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That said, my post wasn't a response to another post in this thread so much as it was an expresion of disbelief.
Really, as smart as we think we are, we saddle ourselves with some millenium old voodoo. I'm the biggest fan I know of mythology. But to make it a part of our actual decision making is just dumb (imo, of course). So it goes. |
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Sneaky Punk
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Last edited by PB PM : 2010-01-21 at 16:54. |
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Avast!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York?
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Re: 2. Very good point that made me smile. But embracing how religions think about each other seems... interesting. I'd prefer to let them handle that, and try to think about it fresh. Your point rings true to me. Maybe I should have more faith in humanity to do something good despite themselves... in some ways, I do. But I cannot get around the fact that religion is the greatest motivator known to man--it drives people to extremes, both good and bad, on a mass scale--and it is also the greatest source of comfort we know (even if, for me personally, a Kurt Vonnegut novel provides greater solace). It's like when sports commentators play that stupid game--"which QB would you pick to lead a championship team"--if I were picking something to motivate people to follow a good cause, I very well might pick religion--the problem is, I'd pick it to motivate a bad cause as well. So I do agree that, in 2010, we should be able to do better than motivation and/or hope through religion. But I'm also afraid that we have not yet done better, in large part. It's like Churchill's old saw: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." Maybe we can apply that to religion: "Religion is the worst form of motivation/comfort, except all those other forms of motivation/comfort that have been tried from time to time." Sure, chicken soup, hot chocolate, a good therapist or a stiff drink work pretty well too. But those things are real, and when they disappear, you can be certain they are gone and certain that the hope you've placed upon them is gone too. Religion, on the other hand, has the great good benefit of speaking only of things we cannot know, and motivating us and comforting us thereby. Uncertainty has its upsides (and, of course, its massive, tragic downsides). One thing I do know: we won't evolve if we don't keep talking about what we don't know... it's just how we do it, I think. "How could you falter / when you're the Rock of Gibralter? / I had to get off the boat so I could walk on water. / This ain't no tall order. / This is nothing to me. / Difficult takes a day. / Impossible takes a week." |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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b): Don't get any on me. It's fine that you do what you do. Do it. Somewhere else than in my personal space. c): Religion is a business. Point. Tax it like any other business. You tax my amendment right to have guns, you should tax my amendment right to worship whatever the fuck I want (or the place I choose to worship at). d): Religious institutions should be absolutely banned from interfering in politics and social laws. No religion allowed in schools. No thinking allowed in religion (heh, that'll be my one dig ). Other than that, whatever. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. So it goes. |
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Avast!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York?
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And eliminating the tax breaks: hallelujah. But limiting when kids can be brought into religious congregations, etc., is a dangerous door to walk through, and requires absolute certainty regarding the results--both intentional and unintentional--of what would amount to a massive social experiment. We do not have that certainty when it comes to social engineering. And I can only imagine the underground movements--nothing cements conviction like persecution--and the resulting, more extreme, behaviors. I'm not so sure that pushing things underground is the way to go. Better education at public schools, though? Yes please. Teach children to think rationally, and they'll handle the rest themselves. (As a side note, being from a rural town with a terrible school system, I learned 90% of my useful skills in church: parsing text, questioning authority, reading music, etc. Am I an exception? Probably. But even though I'm not a whit religious, I've often thought about how to replace what I got in church for my kids... and how difficult that will be). "How could you falter / when you're the Rock of Gibralter? / I had to get off the boat so I could walk on water. / This ain't no tall order. / This is nothing to me. / Difficult takes a day. / Impossible takes a week." |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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Where you got "throwing insults" from is exactly why religion is fascinating to me. If you're not with us you're against us, obviously. There were no insults thrown, but that's what I love about religious people. If they even think a stink-eye was thrown their way they're always like "I AM PAIN! I AM KILLED BY TEH INFEDIL!!!" Fucking hell. Predicability, thy name is religious grunts. Honestly, I could give a shit, but your whole MYOB "like the rest of us" quip was the funniest thing I've ever heard coming from a believer. Fucking classic. If only. The world would be a better place. So it goes. |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hmm?
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I'm not so sure. I think we'd have found other things to fight over. I don't think we'd lose anything artistically, though. Although religious institutions were the great patrons of arts for many centuries, I believe we'd have seen other things being commissioned. Quote:
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I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea. |
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Antimatter Man
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
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As for athiest altruism:, Quote:
All those who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand. Last edited by curiousuburb : 2010-01-21 at 17:24. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Unknown
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Religion is sinister, pervasive and threatening? Oh, but you don't mean to insult anyone. Oh, OK. Your absolute disdain and intolerance for religion (and dare I say anyone who disagrees with you) is duly noted. Can we move on now. And don't worry. I'll still pray for you. Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents! |
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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Avast!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York?
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Here's what I think I can say for certain--I do wish that, if religion had to exist, it would have taken on Kurt Vonnegut's great humanist maxim as its one and only: "Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind." Quote:
"How could you falter / when you're the Rock of Gibralter? / I had to get off the boat so I could walk on water. / This ain't no tall order. / This is nothing to me. / Difficult takes a day. / Impossible takes a week." |
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Sneaky Punk
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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