[Brave Ulysses]

What's the deal with iCloud.

The basic function of iCloud works rather well (syncing settings/contacts/etc and Find My Device). Everything else sucks and is at a standstill in development and progress.

Most annoying to me is the ridiculous 5GB Data cap. It's nearly useless with multiple iDevices and when trying to use Document Sharing and even more useless when Backing up your iDevices to the cloud. I think it's ridiculous that email counts toward that 5GB too. Right now, my email takes up 4GB of the 5GB. I've had my mac.com address since Day 1. I like having a record of email and I prefer not to delete it. All other email services have gone unlimited.

What's the deal here?

I use Photostream a lot too, but it still confuses me at times, and it's very annoying that it doesn't have a solid website interface for others.

Also, why the hell does www.icloud.com still not work on iOS? It is IMPOSSIBLE to check your iCloud email (or use any other iCloud service such as Find my Phone) on someone else's iPhone or iPad without adding your email address at the system level. It's ridiculous.


end Rant for now :-)

[Partial]

Those are all valid concerns. I agree with you. iCloud needs some significant updates. Dropbox is 100000x better.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Partial Those are all valid concerns. I agree with you. iCloud needs some significant updates. Dropbox is 100000x better.

I wish Apple had bought Dropbox.

[drewprops]

I'm tired of seeing warnings about not backing up to the cloud on my iPhone. I don't even read that fucking two dialog warning anymore.

I like the synced notes & email. I'm terrified of photo stream. I now have Mavericks and like that the Maps app can sync to phones bookmarks.

The other stuff?
Hell if I know how to use it.

...

[turtle]

The bookmark syncing and Messages connection is awesome. My wife and I use Messages while I'm at work so I can type on my computer to her while she's away from the house. We use my Jabber server when she's here at home.

More space really does seem like a move they need to make, though they do give unlimited for photos and those libraries get huge. You can even create photo streams that you don't share and store even more in the cloud that way.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Most annoying to me is the ridiculous 5GB Data cap. It's nearly useless with multiple iDevices and when trying to use Document Sharing and even more useless when Backing up your iDevices to the cloud. I think it's ridiculous that email counts toward that 5GB too. Right now, my email takes up 4GB of the 5GB. I've had my mac.com address since Day 1. I like having a record of email and I prefer not to delete it. All other email services have gone unlimited.

Are you talking about per device limit, or the free 5GB Apple gives you? If it is the latter, pay for more, simple as that.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by PB PM Are you talking about per device limit, or the free 5GB Apple gives you? If it is the latter, pay for more, simple as that.

There is no per device limit. It's 5GB per iCloud account. It is borderline insufficient for 1 device. Completely insufficient if you have more than 1 device.

Their pricing is awful, and their free amount of storage is inadequate and uncompetitive. The storage limitations leads to either people not using the service or not having current backups and that seemingly defeats the whole point of the service and adds additional complexity that is against what Apple's intentions are or should be. It's as simple as that.

[PB PM]

When I get something free I don't complain. Apple could give you nothing free, would that make you happy?

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses I wish Apple had bought Dropbox.

I'll bite. Why?

My free DropBox account has 3.75GB. If I want more, I can buy it. $99/yr for 100GB = ~1GB/1$/1yr

It syncs files in the Finder. Love it, use it every day.

My free iCloud account has 5GB. If I want more, I can buy it. 1GB/2$/1yr

It also includes all the other goodness.

If what you're complaining about is the amount of space for free, then the Dropbox model is not what you're looking for. The pricing for Dropbox is half of iCloud, which is significant, but it's a lot more limited to boot.

[zippy]

Apple actually tried to buy DropBox early on, but the DropBox creators wanted to remain autonomous.

I think I actually prefer it this way. One of the greatest things about DropBox is how well it works across different platforms. If Apple had bought them, I'm pretty confident it would have been converted into an Apple only tech. That may have been good for Apple and its users that are 100% Apple ecosystem, but bad for everyone else.

[Partial]

Originally Posted by Kickaha I'll bite. Why? My free DropBox account has 3.75GB. If I want more, I can buy it. $99/yr for 100GB = ~1GB/1$/1yr It syncs files in the Finder. Love it, use it every day. My free iCloud account has 5GB. If I want more, I can buy it. 1GB/2$/1yr It also includes all the other goodness. If what you're complaining about is the amount of space for free, then the Dropbox model is not what you're looking for. The pricing for Dropbox is half of iCloud, which is significant, but it's a lot more limited to boot.

I have 14.5GB for free and could get more, too.

Dropbox just works. It is great for sharing files, synching files, etc. iCloud does not have anything even a little bit like this. iCloud doesn't work the way I work. Dropbox does. This is an extremely common complaint.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Partial I have 14.5GB for free and could get more, too. Dropbox just works. It is great for sharing files, synching files, etc. iCloud does not have anything even a little bit like this. iCloud doesn't work the way I work. Dropbox does. This is an extremely common complaint.

How the hell did you get that much free space?? O.o

You're right that iCloud doesn't have anything like that, which is a shame, but what iCloud does, Dropbox doesn't. They're orthogonal solutions.

I use Dropbox literally every day to sync files between a couple of work machines, but I cannot *imagine* trying to do so manually with my Contacts, for instance. Share the address book file? Sure, no problem. And then when Apple changes the file layout? What about caching? etc etc etc It's a fragile solution when used that way, syncing up documents that you don't have control over in a fundamental way. Apps like 1Password use Dropbox to sync, but they do so through the app itself - you don't need to do anything special.

For what iCloud does, it's very good. Finally. (From the user's perspective - it's still an annoyance to the devs, and they need to clean that up quickly.)

Dropbox does something very different, and it's against the grain of where Apple is aiming with documents being managed by their creator applications. I'm not thrilled with it myself, but for many folks I know it works a lot better than dealing with the Finder. It wouldn't make much sense for Apple to offer a solution that is in opposition to their obvious direction.

If the Finder is going to be for 'power users' (gak), then we can find our way to Dropbox, I guess is their thinking.

And, what zippy said. The cross-platform capability is wonderful.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Kickaha How the hell did you get that much free space?? O.o

You get free space if you email other people about it and convince them to get an account. I only have 2.5GB because nobody else I know would sign up.

[ThunderPoit]

I set myself up with OwnCloud. It was pretty easy, but they are lacking a major feature of drop box which is the ability to automatically upload photos from your phone. Other than that, its a nice app.

[Kickaha]

You know, I've been looking at alternatives like that. I don't do the auto-photo-upload anyway, so I'll check it out, thanks.

[Maciej]

Box.com was offering 50GB free just a week or two ago, and M$'s SkyDrive had a 100GB promotion just last week - if you're looking for more storage it may be worth keeping your ear to the ground, these types of promotions are bound to come around again.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by PB PM When I get something free I don't complain. Apple could give you nothing free, would that make you happy?

Apple chose to make it free. It use to cost $99/year. Not my fault.


It's a core of Apple's business model, and it's a weak offering that has been neglected. It has done little to change the perception that Apple doesn't "do" internet services well

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses It has done little to change the perception that Apple doesn't "do" internet services well

This thread is the first place I've ever seen, or heard, anyone complain about the limitation of iCloud's free space. I guess that reputation is somewhat limited in scope.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Apple chose to make it free. It use to cost $99/year. Not my fault. It's a core of Apple's business model, and it's a weak offering that has been neglected. It has done little to change the perception that Apple doesn't "do" internet services well

In what way is it weak, other than the amount of space? That's what I'm not getting from your complaint.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Kickaha In what way is it weak, other than the amount of space? That's what I'm not getting from your complaint.

capacity is only 1 of the issues.

Like I have pointed out, there are many more, you just ignored my first post.

But if you want to focus on capacity and the fact that its free.... then what is the logic that the capacity is based on the iCloud account and not by the device? The cost of iCloud is theoretically subsidized by the cost of each individual product. So why when I buy 3 iOS devices do I not get 3X the free space so that I can actually use iCloud to back each of those devices up and not just one of them?

Why is there no iCloud family account support? Why is there no ability to change your iCloud email address, user name, apple ID, merge Apple IDs, combine Apple IDs or group Apple IDs?

Why does email count toward that space and why is Apple's email capacity not competitive with any other free email service?

Why does www.icloud.com not work on iOS?

Why is document sharing used by any third parties? Why can documents stored in iCloud not be opened in other iCloud enabled applications that support that file format? How is it ever suppose to be viable if no one ever has enough storage to actually utilize it and if the files stored aren't easily accessible to anyone from anywhere, including non iOS devices.

Why is there no good web interface for Photostream? Why is photo stream so confusing?

Why does iTunes in the Cloud and iTunes Match still not make sense and offer a clear sense of what is stored on the server and what is stored locally?

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by PB PM This thread is the first place I've ever seen, or heard, anyone complain about the limitation of iCloud's free space. I guess that reputation is somewhat limited in scope.

you simply haven't been looking or have been looking the other way then. If the only place you have been looking is here, then that's not much of a surprise, as there is about zero discussion of actual Apple related stuff here anymore.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses If the only place you have been looking is here, then that's not much of a surprise...

That's not what I said though is it?

To be honest, I don't know many people who still have iPhones or iPads. In my family everyone uses the free iCloud accounts, and I've not heard a complaint about space. Almost everyone else I know has moved to Android devices.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses capacity is only 1 of the issues. Like I have pointed out, there are many more, you just ignored my first post.

Oh brother.

No, I really didn't. You said:

The basic function of iCloud works rather well (syncing settings/contacts/etc and Find My Device).

Yay.

Everything else sucks and is at a standstill in development and progress.

And you define 'everything else' as... ?

Most annoying to me is the ridiculous 5GB Data cap.

Obviously, that was your #1 issue, both by placement, 'most annoying' status, and words spent on it. You can see why the rest of us thought it was your biggest beef.

But, skipping ahead...

I use Photostream a lot too, but it still confuses me at times, and it's very annoying that it doesn't have a solid website interface for others.

PhotoStream is confusing. Got it. 'Solid website interface for others' Sorry, not clear what you mean here. Do you mean for other people to view your PhotoStream photos online?

Also, why the hell does www.icloud.com still not work on iOS? It is IMPOSSIBLE to check your iCloud email (or use any other iCloud service such as Find my Phone) on someone else's iPhone or iPad without adding your email address at the system level. It's ridiculous.

Yeah, this is odd. I can see the thinking behind it though, to prevent confusion for users on their same device.

Aaaaaand I just re-read it. You can now apparently use Find My iPhone on another person's iPhone, if you're using Find iPhone 3.0. When it launches, it asks for your AppleID and password. Enter yours.

So, space, PhotoStream, iCloud.com on iOS. Three things. Got it.

But if you want to focus on capacity and the fact that its free....

Not really, since it's by far the least interesting, but that was your #1 complaint.

then what is the logic that the capacity is based on the iCloud account and not by the device? The cost of iCloud is theoretically subsidized by the cost of each individual product. So why when I buy 3 iOS devices do I not get 3X the free space so that I can actually use iCloud to back each of those devices up and not just one of them?

No argument here in principle, but I can see some subtle gotchas in the implementation. The reason it's tied to the account is because that's the user's single interface to the data store. Now, it'd be nice is an iOS device could, through being logged in via iCloud, be 'registered' as a new device needing backup, and add to the pool. De-registration (due to theft, for instance) would be an issue however. Not unsolvable, but every approach I can think of has some downsides.

Why is there no iCloud family account support? Why is there no ability to change your iCloud email address, user name, apple ID, merge Apple IDs, combine Apple IDs or group Apple IDs?

This has jack-all to do with iCloud, it's an AppleID issue - but yeah, it's stupid.

Let's be sure that we're clear on where the problem lies though, it's the same with Apple IDs used for the iTunes Store.

Actually, now that I re-read this, you can change the Apple ID main email address associated with the iCloud account and alter a lot of what you stated above that way. You still can't merge or split Apple IDs, which is annoying however.

Why does email count toward that space and why is Apple's email capacity not competitive with any other free email service?

A new one! No clue. I honestly thought username@icloud.com email *didn't* count, until I just looked.

Why does www.icloud.com not work on iOS?

Like I said, it's most likely to reduce confusion by users on their own device, which is the common use model. And yes, I've had my dad do this. I told him to check his iCloud settings, and instead of going to the Settings app, he went to www.icloud.com. I was face palming, but... apparently it happens.

Why is document sharing used by any third parties?

I'm assuming you mean 'not' here? See my earlier comment about developer pain. It's a pretty big issue. Much bigger than any of the user-facing issues, if you ask me.

Why can documents stored in iCloud not be opened in other iCloud enabled applications that support that file format?

Because iOS uses an app-centric user model, not a document-centric one. Love it or hate it, that's the OS model.

How is it ever suppose to be viable if no one ever has enough storage to actually utilize it

Okay, storage space again.

and if the files stored aren't easily accessible to anyone from anywhere, including non iOS devices.

App-centric user model means that the apps control the data, and the only apps that we're talking about here are iOS apps, so... not non-iOS support needed.

Not saying it's *right*, saying it's a result of the app-centric user model.

The 'proper' way to share a document is to use the Share feature. That might change, it'd be nice.

Why is there no good web interface for Photostream? Why is photo stream so confusing?

You got me.

Why does iTunes in the Cloud and iTunes Match still not make sense and offer a clear sense of what is stored on the server and what is stored locally?

Look for the little cloud icon. Cloud icon == on iCloud. No cloud icon == you have a local copy.

[Brave Ulysses]

That's not what I said though is it? To be honest, I don't know many people who still have iPhones or iPads. In my family everyone uses the free iCloud accounts, and I've not heard a complaint about space. Almost everyone else I know has moved to Android devices.

Well... I'm not trying to be combative for the sake of being combative (believe it or not).

This thread is the first place I've ever seen, or heard, anyone complain about the limitation of iCloud's free space. I guess that reputation is somewhat limited in scope.

You dismiss my complaints as not common yet your sample size appears (to me) to be this forum and your family and friends.... all of which have switched to Android according to you.

So how are you even qualified to say that? Again, not trying to be combative, but I don't understand why you are so quick to dismiss my complaints based on your own anecdotal evidence, when your anecdotal evidence apparently does not include many, if any, iOS users?


For what its worth, I work in an all Mac, all iOS office. My family is entirely Mac and iOS based. And I'd honestly say the overwhelming majority of my friends are iPhone owners. As for friends with tablets everyone but a couple have an iPad, and those couple have a Kindle Fire. I'm not saying it's the norm, but I think between my personal experience and my unfortunate frequency of mac forums and news sites, I've got a good grasp of common complaints and frustrations. Plus, there are approximately 600 million iOS devices out there, no your experience is certainly even further from the norm.

Obviously, that was your #1 issue, both by placement, 'most annoying' status, and words spent on it. You can see why the rest of us thought it was your biggest beef.

It is indeed the biggest beef. But not the only beef as you suggested. Not a big deal. But not what I said and the capacity was not intended to be the sole focus of discussion although I do believe it should be the primary one.

PhotoStream is confusing. Got it. 'Solid website interface for others' Sorry, not clear what you mean here. Do you mean for other people to view your PhotoStream photos online?

Yes, both Aperture and iPhoto support multiple libraries now. If you use multiple libraries, Photostream gets pretty wacky at times. Photostream sync photos to multiple places, but users don't really have a record of where, and I have yet to find a single non-techy iPhone owner who remotely understands syncing and deleting photos on their phones. I have lost count of how many times I have had to help people clear photos off their phones in order for them to be able to install an update. They just don't get it, and Apple makes it pretty damn hard to understand and do easily. It's very much unApple. It doesn't "just work". Apple also has a weird avoidance of displaying usage, file size, and capacity in any way in any iOS app, except buried within the settings control panel.

There is no personal user website where people can go and view your shared photos. They must be invited and provided with a link. It's surprisingly unclear to many how to add and remove people and it's a misstep not to have a public option or to have integration with Facebook galleries and/or other photo services. Instead, a user must manage and upload to multiple services to reach their intended audience.

Yeah, this is odd. I can see the thinking behind it though, to prevent confusion for users on their same device. Aaaaaand I just re-read it. You can now apparently use Find My iPhone on another person's iPhone, if you're using Find iPhone 3.0. When it launches, it asks for your AppleID and password. Enter yours. So, space, PhotoStream, iCloud.com on iOS. Three things. Got it.

You can use the app on another phone but not Find My iPhone on www.icloud.com.

I have no issue with the default www.icloud.com page as it appears on iOS. But below the warning should be a link to bypass as a guest and login to access your iCloud services temporarily from someone else's device. iOS devices are becoming even more popular as common terminals at libraries, cafes, etc..... you can't check iCloud email on those devices. iPads are often shared amongst many users.... they have no multiple user support to begin with, but then you also can't change your individual iCloud email on it either.

No argument here in principle, but I can see some subtle gotchas in the implementation. The reason it's tied to the account is because that's the user's single interface to the data store. Now, it'd be nice is an iOS device could, through being logged in via iCloud, be 'registered' as a new device needing backup, and add to the pool. De-registration (due to theft, for instance) would be an issue however. Not unsolvable, but every approach I can think of has some downsides.

Those issues are no different than the existing iTunes authorization Apple does for individual devices.

This has jack-all to do with iCloud, it's an AppleID issue - but yeah, it's stupid. Let's be sure that we're clear on where the problem lies though, it's the same with Apple IDs used for the iTunes Store. Actually, now that I re-read this, you can change the Apple ID main email address associated with the iCloud account and alter a lot of what you stated above that way. You still can't merge or split Apple IDs, which is annoying however.

Merging and splitting is a major problem. But the biggest problem is ease of use, simplicity, and clarity. There is no user friendly go to spot for account management. It's been way too long like this and it is incredibly confusing. You have to keep in mind that you and I and others here have a good understanding of these things and understand workarounds and why there are restrictions. Others simply don't get it. Again, I have people ask me for help with Apple IDs, iTune accounts, iCloud accounts, iMessage email addresses, and how they all operate together all the time. It's not the way that it should be.

Because iOS uses an app-centric user model, not a document-centric one. Love it or hate it, that's the OS model.

Yet, it doesn't make sense in every situation. And creates difficulty for a user when they open Mail and expect to be able to select their recently saved document or PDF and send it to someone. People don't think and work in an app-centric user model at all times and Apple can't force that upon them.

App-centric user model means that the apps control the data, and the only apps that we're talking about here are iOS apps, so... not non-iOS support needed. Not saying it's *right*, saying it's a result of the app-centric user model. The 'proper' way to share a document is to use the Share feature. That might change, it'd be nice.

Mac Apps as well that support Document Sharing.

And who knows, maybe that is the way the Mac moves as well. Hard to tell but I could see it happening.

Look for the little cloud icon. Cloud icon == on iCloud. No cloud icon == you have a local copy.

Not true. A large portion of your music gets cached and the Cloud icon does not appear. It will be on your phone.

It is ridiculous that every time you want to use or only show locally stored music you have to leave the music app and go levels deep in settings and turn it off.

Also, again, there is inadequate information provided to the user about how many songs at a given time are local, no easy to understand grouping of them, no display of space used, or feedback on how much data you have used streaming. (you can go into settings again, multiple levels deep, and take a broad look).

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Well... I'm not trying to be combative for the sake of being combative (believe it or not). So how are you even qualified to say that? Again, not trying to be combative, but I don't understand why you are so quick to dismiss my complaints based on your own anecdotal evidence, when your anecdotal evidence apparently does not include many, if any, iOS users?

Nah, you're just passive aggressive instead.

I don't put much weight into complaints on this form simply because there are too few active users (that includes your own by the way).

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by PB PM Nah, you're just passive aggressive instead. I don't put much weight into complaints on this form simply because there are too few active users (that includes your own by the way).

The weird thing about your post above is that I am the exact opposite of passive aggressive.

But you on the other hand...

http://forums.applenova.com/showpost...&postcount=264

[Partial]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses capacity is only 1 of the issues. Like I have pointed out, there are many more, you just ignored my first post. But if you want to focus on capacity and the fact that its free.... then what is the logic that the capacity is based on the iCloud account and not by the device? The cost of iCloud is theoretically subsidized by the cost of each individual product. So why when I buy 3 iOS devices do I not get 3X the free space so that I can actually use iCloud to back each of those devices up and not just one of them? Why is there no iCloud family account support? Why is there no ability to change your iCloud email address, user name, apple ID, merge Apple IDs, combine Apple IDs or group Apple IDs? Why does email count toward that space and why is Apple's email capacity not competitive with any other free email service? Why does www.icloud.com not work on iOS? Why is document sharing used by any third parties? Why can documents stored in iCloud not be opened in other iCloud enabled applications that support that file format? How is it ever suppose to be viable if no one ever has enough storage to actually utilize it and if the files stored aren't easily accessible to anyone from anywhere, including non iOS devices. Why is there no good web interface for Photostream? Why is photo stream so confusing? Why does iTunes in the Cloud and iTunes Match still not make sense and offer a clear sense of what is stored on the server and what is stored locally?

Photostream is seriously the most confusing thing Apple has ever released. In the documentation for it, it alleges that Apple saves every photo ever, etc up to like 10K per month. In reality, it's not even close to that.

The implementation is horrible. The system itself works well - but I want all of my photos backed up forever. Why are they not doing this? Yeah yeah, I get it's expensive, but you know what's more expensive? Pissing people off when they don't realize they're not all backed up - and in reality only 30 days worth are backed up in the cloud even though all photos are technically in the photostream on a device. EXTREMELY frustrating and terrible UX.

Who in their right mind decided that the Photostream view in iPhoto and iOS would NOT be a real-time representation of what's stored on Apple's servers. Talk about borking that one up big time.

[Maciej]

I agree with the sentiment about Photostream. I don't know what it really does, or how it works. So I think I'm using it, but I don't even really know if I'm doing so effectively.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by PB PM You get free space if you email other people about it and convince them to get an account. I only have 2.5GB because nobody else I know would sign up.

Linking with Facebook, Twitter, Mailbox, using the Camera Uploader, playing Dropquest, using an .edu e-mail, etc.

I have a 33.35 GB free Dropbox account as a result.

[chucker]

iCloud needs a lot of work on many fronts.

Space. Got a $799-$929 iPad with 128 Gigs of storage? Well, you still get a whopping 5 Gigs of free iCloud space. The ATP guys brought this up particularly with photos a while ago. Apple keeps touting the iPhone as a great camera, and I think it is, but Apple hasn't offered a solid solution for how to archive your photos. You can't even use a Time Capsule as a local backup, nor can you use Photostream in a way anyone can comprehend (you think this is confusing for us? Try being an average user), and even if you could, there'd be no "okay, I'd like to browse the photos that aren't currently on this device" interface whatsoever.

Metaphors. The your app is your documents' silo concept works surprisingly well for simple cases, but fails completely for even somewhat complex ones. Lord help you if you want to use a non-default mail client or browser, or, gasp, switch to a competing app later on and carry your data with you.

Tech. I haven't gotten clear feedback whether last summer's storage improvements (particularly with Core Data) have fulfilled their promise. It seems like most developers have already given up trying to use iCloud for non-trivial data storage. Not a good sign.