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Rittenhouse Verdict
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Matsu
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2021-11-20, 13:43

[Edit] This thread is for the discussion of the Kyle Rittenhouse trial/verdict. It has been broken off from The Daily News thread. ~Kscherer [/Edit]



Rittenhouse verdict seems like a steaming pile of shit all round.

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Last edited by kscherer : 2021-11-23 at 14:37.
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turtle
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2021-11-20, 21:26

Shocking know one, I happen to like the verdict.

Though I'm like everyone on here, I only heard part of the story so I can't really make my opinion based on anything other than what I heard.

I will say though, I personally would not have brought a weapon to a protest like that. You're kinda asking for something to happen. He is not a hero by any means, though from what I heard, it was self-defense.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
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2021-11-21, 06:35

Some of the reactions point out that the victims were convicted criminals, which I find a problematic argument. If they were, does that mean they deserved to die? Does that mean a vigilante gets to execute them? Are people arguing that killing someone is not as big a deal if that someone is no saint?
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709
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2021-11-21, 10:10

He's the very definition of a vigilante. Drove 30 minutes, across state lines, where he knew a protest would be, just to cosplay law enforcement. With an AR-style. He may have been found not guilty, but he's not innocent. Dumb kid has no idea how much he just fucked the rest of his life up.

So it goes.
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chucker
 
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2021-11-21, 12:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Kyle wasn't a vigilante from what I read, he had poor judgement, but not a vigilante. According to the jury's verdict from the evidence they saw, he acted in self-defense.
But then why was he there? To one-man counter-protest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
Dumb kid has no idea how much he just fucked the rest of his life up.
I don’t think he did. He’s already getting political job offers, and the pundit contributor job at CNN can’t be far away.
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709
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2021-11-21, 13:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I don’t think he did. He’s already getting political job offers, and the pundit contributor job at CNN can’t be far away.
Those are not serious offers; they're just looking to use him to fundraise (look at who's offering - some of the most foul people in the party). He'll be paraded around the RWNJ circuit until his 15 minutes are up or he expresses 1 second of remorse, then it's on to the numerous civil suits no doubt to follow.

So it goes.
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drewprops
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2021-11-21, 15:03

I have managed to remain disengaged from this topic because I can't fix it. But I have strong opinions.


...
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turtle
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2021-11-21, 16:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
But then why was he there? To one-man counter-protest?
...
I don't know why he was there. Based on new blurbs he was there rendering aid and protecting a car dealership with many others. The reality is, it doesn't matter why he was there in the context of the self-defense situation. The trial was about homicide or self-defense and clearly, after four days of deliberations, it was self-defense.

I think he might have had nobility in his heart, but that is pure conjecture based on the reports of him cleaning graffiti off the walls of a school earlier that day or the day before. He had a med kit with the intent to render aid. He was a police cadet and did stuff with the fire department at home too. Clearly he has the heart to serve based on these acts of volunteerism.

If I had to guess, he hated seeing good people lose property over abusive protesters taking to violence when they didn't get their way. However, that is simply a guess, I'm not in his head. I know I would want people to come to my aid to help me defend my property if I were in their shoes. I worked hard for what I have and intend to take care of it. I'm guessing everyone on this forum would want to protect their property too if harm was on the way. While many on there might not own a weapon, let alone pull it out if violence came their way, if someone else used a show of force to help protect your property I'm guessing plenty wouldn't complain about it. You know, like an off duty cop.

Drew, I too have avoided this topic since I'm nearly 100% positive I'm the dissenting voice in this forum. It is a situation that sucks all around and the media has been really hammering since the trial began. No matter what side you listen to, few are all the facts and all are filled with opinion. I've said nothing until now because it was ultimately in the hands of the jury to decide. The judge was quoted and this is so true:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Schroeder
"This case has become very political, you could go out now and read things from all across the political spectrum about this case, most of which is written by people who know nothing."
That is why I held back from even mentioning it. Not one person on the forum can contest that with any shred of truth.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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Matsu
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2021-11-21, 21:12

In other neighbourhoods in the USA, kids about the same age as Rittenhouse, and younger, don colours and weapons and take to the streets to protect their property and that of their peers. Those we call gangs and criminals, and the law makes plenty of errors dealing with them too.
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Frank777
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2021-11-21, 21:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
In other neighbourhoods in the USA, kids about the same age as Rittenhouse, and younger, don colours and weapons and take to the streets to protect their property and that of their peers. Those we call gangs and criminals, and the law makes plenty of errors dealing with them too.
I've seen plenty of really bad takes on the Rittenhouse verdict so far, but this is one of the worst.
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turtle
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2021-11-21, 21:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
In other neighbourhoods in the USA, kids about the same age as Rittenhouse, and younger, don colours and weapons and take to the streets to protect their property and that of their peers. Those we call gangs and criminals, and the law makes plenty of errors dealing with them too.
Dude, you are comparing oranges and Martians here.
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Matsu
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2021-11-21, 22:00

Why is it so bad? Both foolish, both hopelessly indoctrinated, both ready to do violence.
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Ryan
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2021-11-21, 22:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
I have managed to remain disengaged from this topic because I can't fix it. But I have strong opinions.


...
Yeah I'm tapping out on this one too.
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Frank777
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2021-11-21, 22:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
Both foolish, both hopelessly indoctrinated, both ready to do violence.
I stayed out of this so far as well.

But people on this board have to remember that most Canadians get their US headline news from ratings-challenged CNN.
Fox News is extra for most cable subscribers and other conservative-leaning sources aren't on the dial.

So after ginning up their viewers to hate Rittenhouse for their political masters, CNN is now starting to walk back a lot of the outrageous claims that have been promulgated on TV news shows and Twitter.

And no Matsu, they're not both the same.

When you see a mob rolling a dumpster fire towards a gas station, and you intervene with a fire extinguisher, you are not "doing violence."
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Matsu
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2021-11-21, 23:11

Shooting people qualifies as violence, which he came prepared to do. I’m not convinced that the psychology here is that different from criminals who get into circumstances of which they have convinced themselves they were unavoidable victims. Their language is not so different from the apologies being made for Mr. Rittenhouse’s choices.

Last edited by Matsu : 2021-11-21 at 23:37.
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zippy
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2021-11-22, 12:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
He is not a hero by any means, though from what I heard, it was self-defense.
I didn’t follow the trial closely so I don’t know what all positions were made. But why can’t those who were shot also argue self-defense? Perhaps they were in fear for their lives that this young wanna-be vigilante was going to shoot them, so they decided it might be best to try and disarm him?

It used to be that if a non-police entity was seen entering a facility wielding a weapon - bad shit was going to happen. And if someone jumped the gun-wielding individual before they could do any damage, they were a hero. Now, the gunman can shoot such a hero and claim self defense.

Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents!
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turtle
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2021-11-22, 12:43

Legally speaking he stood his ground and even tried to evade before shooting. In other words, he was clearly being attacked. How many other protesters walked by people with weapons that didn’t get shot nor charge someone with a clearly visible weapon?

Really, he did everything within his power to avoid deadly force, other than the fact that he was present at all.

In the counter side, why were the attackers there? Delivering candy to the boys and girls of the neighbors?

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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zippy
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2021-11-22, 13:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Legally speaking he stood his ground and even tried to evade before shooting. In other words, he was clearly being attacked. How many other protesters walked by people with weapons that didn’t get shot nor charge someone with a clearly visible weapon?

Really, he did everything within his power to avoid deadly force, other than the fact that he was present at all.

In the counter side, why were the attackers there? Delivering candy to the boys and girls of the neighbors?
People are allowed to protest. It’s foundational to our democracy. I do also believe in the right to protect your self and your property, but he’s clearly beyond that scope here. He went out looking for trouble. Yay, he found it.

Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents!
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turtle
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2021-11-22, 13:43

I disagree that he went out looking for trouble based on testimony. He was there to render aid but armed to protect himself. In fact, if you look at his life before the incident that landed him in the spotlight, he was helping in Kenosha.

Would he have been attacked if he didn't have a rifle? Who knows, likely not though. Still, he was attacked and he defended himself.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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Frank777
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2021-11-22, 21:49

This incident is a simple test between those who take the time to look at facts and follow evidence,
and those who just accept whatever narrative is presented to them by the media.

The footage clearly shows what happened.
But Hollywood, cable news and Democrat politicos on Twitter say he's a dangerous white supremacist.


And with that, their deranged audience happily joins Team Let's-Blow-Up-A-Gas-Station-With-A-Dumpster-Fire.
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Dave
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2021-11-23, 03:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy View Post
I didn’t follow the trial closely so I don’t know what all positions were made. But why can’t those who were shot also argue self-defense? Perhaps they were in fear for their lives that this young wanna-be vigilante was going to shoot them, so they decided it might be best to try and disarm him?
Rittenhouse was trying to run away from them (unsuccessfully, unfortunately), and didn’t shoot until they posed an imminent threat. In general, though, I’m not aware of anything stopping both parties from claiming self-defense. I’m not aware of it ever happening in court, but I’m not in a position to know about such things unless it happens to make the news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy View Post
It used to be that if a non-police entity was seen entering a facility wielding a weapon - bad shit was going to happen. And if someone jumped the gun-wielding individual before they could do any damage, they were a hero. Now, the gunman can shoot such a hero and claim self defense.
With a few exceptions related to being on some kinds of federal property, whether you can walk around with an AR-15 (or any other kind of gun) depends on state and local laws. In Kenosha, it’s legal, so there’s no basis for someone to use only the fact that Rittenhouse had an AR-15 as a reason to “jump the gun-wielding individual before they could do any damage”. If Rittenhouse was acting in a threatening manner, that might* change things, but if there was evidence of such behavior the jury didn’t find it convincing.

*My understanding is that “it depends”, but I’ve never had a reason to know that aspect of the law even where I live, let alone halfway across the continent.

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
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Matsu
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2021-11-23, 07:31

Frank, those who see the problems with Rittenhouse and the verdict are not simply parroting a narrative.
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Dr. Bobsky
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2021-11-23, 19:29

Almost anyone can claim self-defence and get away with murder. This child murdered two people under the claim of self-defence. So is the verdict correct? Probably. But stand your ground laws need to change, as does the burden of evidence in the claim of self-defence. At the moment, it is up to the prosecutor to prove that self-defence wasn't the motivation; and without the ability to crack open Rittenhouse's skull (legally, though I'm sure there's more than a handful that would do it just for fun) and probe around for his motivation centre, this is an impossibility. One way to do this is to separate the fact findings of the trial: Rittenhouse murdered those men, unambiguously, no one is actually arguing this; from extenuating circumstances surrounding this act that would affect his punishment. We already do this to some degree with temporary or non-temporary insanity pleas. But for the moment, Rittenhouse, a murderer, is walking free without the benefit of society recognising the weight of the crimes he committed. Let's be honest though: his life is fucked, not as much as the men he killed but pretty fucked.
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Dave
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2021-11-23, 22:41

He killed two people… IIRC, he has to be found guilty to have murdered them.

Anyway, how would you change the SYG laws?
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Matsu
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2021-11-24, 11:34

I want to walk back some of my comparison from earlier up thread. While tribalism and criminality neatly capture aspects of both street gangs and proud boys alike, after more carefully considering what I've seen from Rittenhouse over the last year and some, on the night of the events, and in the time before, during, and after the trial, I think we're seeing something different here.

I believe there's a good chance he's a psychopath who purposely put himself in a position to increase the likelihood of the outcome of Aug 25, 2020, that he wanted to be there precisely for the possibility of a righteous kill and the celebrity/attention that would come from it, not to protect property, but to benefit from the situation as cover for his own motives. He strikes me, increasingly, as naive in one aspect only: young enough to believe he could get away with it.

Where a simple racist might consider the odds too long, or a more seasoned sociopath might seek more control of the external factors, a neophyte psychopath might just think there's enough ambiguity within the conflict itself to cover his motives and justify actions that he himself set in motion. Get gun, get there, get in the middle, prod a little, get a reason... take it.

He didn't start the conflict, but saw a way to benefit from it. It's not unlike a small percentage of soldiers who enlist for the possibility of a legally sanctioned thrill kill.

.........................................
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chucker
 
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2021-11-24, 12:03

Seems… mildly inflammatory.
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turtle
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2021-11-24, 13:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
I want to walk back some of my comparison from earlier up thread. While tribalism and criminality neatly capture aspects of both street gangs and proud boys alike, after more carefully considering what I've seen from Rittenhouse over the last year and some, on the night of the events, and in the time before, during, and after the trial, I think we're seeing something different here.

I believe there's a good chance he's a psychopath who purposely put himself in a position to increase the likelihood of the outcome of Aug 25, 2020, that he wanted to be there precisely for the possibility of a righteous kill and the celebrity/attention that would come from it, not to protect property, but to benefit from the situation as cover for his own motives. He strikes me, increasingly, as naive in one aspect only: young enough to believe he could get away with it.

Where a simple racist might consider the odds too long, or a more seasoned sociopath might seek more control of the external factors, a neophyte psychopath might just think there's enough ambiguity within the conflict itself to cover his motives and justify actions that he himself set in motion. Get gun, get there, get in the middle, prod a little, get a reason... take it.

He didn't start the conflict, but saw a way to benefit from it. It's not unlike a small percentage of soldiers who enlist for the possibility of a legally sanctioned thrill kill.
You must personally know Kyle and have been able to discuss the details of the situation with him. I mean, clearly you wouldn't be just randomly making stuff up or worse, basing it on the media being put out there. Would you? The jury of 10 "peers" found him not guilty on all charges. It could even be argued it wasn't a fair trial given the missteps and inappropriate conduct of the Prosecution.

The reality is no one knows his motives in the end but him and God. Given what I've seen, it is beyond a stretch to even remotely come to the conclusion you have stated here unless you swallow media hook, line and sinker.

Given the thread is about his verdict, that he is innocent of charges alleged against him, I'm not sure why you would be trying to assassinate his character here in this forum. You don't like the verdict, vote to have the laws changed then so that it wouldn't have been legal for him to do what he did to protect himself. Of course, you remove the ability to stand you ground and defend yourself then there will be greater problems and crime will go through the roof. That is a topic for a different thread though.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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Matsu
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2021-11-24, 13:23

I don’t need to be in his head to have my own suspicions. We have the totality of his words and deeds - I can’t say I watched it all, but I watched a lot. I just watched most closely when he himself spoke, most recently with Tucker Carlson, if anything someone predisposed to be generous to Rittenhouse’s position. There’s a curious bit from Rittenhouse’s attorney too, about how the right is taking advantage of his client as their newest cause celeb, though it’s on a different if related tangent of my thinking here.

The thing about certain antisocial personality types is that they can be quite skillful/strategic in disguising their motivations.
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turtle
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2021-11-24, 13:29

I've not watched anything from them so I don't have the reference you are speaking from. Plus, I trust little from any media source really. I've yet to find one that isn't biased.

That being said, I'm gathering the reason "the right" is hailing him more points to limiting gun control where the other side of the isle wants to remove all/severely limit weapons in the hands law abiding citizens. However, I don't know their motives nor do you without being in their meetings. :shrug:

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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Matsu
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2021-11-24, 13:36

No doubt, I think you have the partisan motivations around gun control down pat. Race is a bit more complicated,

Interestingly, I could make the case that if I’m right about the psychology, the case isn’t that useful for either side of the political aisle, but I don’t think of myself as any kind of political strategist and despite my years am still surprised by what politicos do to serve their causes.
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