[Eugene]

So XBox 360 owners are getting a video download service too with some key differences to Apple's iTunes service.

Videos are available in SD and HD.
An episode of CSI in HD was shown to be 320 MS points, which is about $4.
TV show downloads can be downloaded an infinite number of times.
Movies = PPV, 24 hour expiration.
You can only view these from an XBox 360; You can bring your HDD to a friend's place and watch these files on his XBox 360.
Files are 720p, 5.1 channel audio, VC-1 encoded.

Interesting times. I hope HD content is available from iTunes sooner than later. What I really want to see is Apple's sales model plus HD content plus the ability to redownload stuff you've already paid for.

[beardedmacuser]

I'm guessing US only?

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by Eugene the ability to redownload stuff you've already paid for.

That's what I want more than anything.

This XBox thing is interesting, but $4 is too much for an episode of a TV show, even in HD.

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Not only the price, but just how many movies/TV shows, etc. will fit on a 20GB HDD? I guess some of this is mitigated by the fact you can redownload purchased shows to your 360 for free. Also, anyone who's downloaded from XBL when there's peak demand (like when GRAW Chapter 2 or popular game demos are released) has felt the pain of s-l-o-o-o-o-w downloads.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by bassplayinMacFiend Not only the price, but just how many movies/TV shows, etc. will fit on a 20GB HDD? I guess some of this is mitigated by the fact you can redownload to your 360 for free. Also, anyone who's downloaded from XBL when there's peak demand (like when GRAW Chapter 2 or popular game demos are released) has felt the pain of s-l-o-o-o-o-w downloads.

Size doesn't matter that much. You can just download your TV shows at your leisure and movies are only rentals.

This isn't a very crowded market yet...this is one space where Apple needs to innovate or die.

[Brave Ulysses]

MS just killed the iTV.....at least what's been revealed of it.

Let's hope Apple has a lot up its sleave for the iTV. It's definitely not an appealing device at this point. Overpriced, underspeced, outdated, and restrictive.

[chucker]

So, let's see.

• About twice as expensive, albeit with higher quality
• Cannot watch on computer, let alone on five different ones
• Cannot watch on portable device, let alone an infinite number of them
• Cannot easily transfer ("bring your HD"? yeah right)

And this should have Apple worried? Give me a break.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Eugene Size doesn't matter that much. You can just download your TV shows at your leisure and movies are only rentals. This isn't a very crowded market yet...this is one space where Apple needs to innovate or die.

Originally Posted by chucker So, let's see. • About twice as expensive, albeit with higher quality • Cannot watch on computer, let alone on five different ones • Cannot watch on portable device, let alone an infinite number of them • Cannot easily transfer ("bring your HD"? yeah right) And this should have Apple worried? Give me a break.

So, let's see
•So I need to own a Macintosh and purchase a $300 wireless base station with worse quality.
• Can only watch on a TV if I buy a $300 wireless base station and with crappy quality.
• Can watch movies on a lovely square 2.5 inch screen that I paid $250 for plus 10-15 dollars for a movie
• Has restricted rights that doesn't allow transfer to DVD

And this should make Apple competitive? Give me a break.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses So, let's see •So I need to own a Macintosh

What gives you that idea? iTunes exists on Windows just fine, for music and videos. Going by iPods accepting photos from Adobe Photoshop Album, iTV will likely as well.

and purchase a $300 wireless base station with worse quality.

What gives you any freaking idea whatsoever about the quality of a product you have never tested? Why would they have HDMI, Component and TOSlink connectors if they didn't care to have reasonable quality levels?

• Can only watch on a TV if I buy a $300 wireless base station and with crappy quality.

See above.

• Can watch movies on a lovely square 2.5 inch screen that I paid $250 for plus 10-15 dollars for a movie

Evidently appealing to millions of people. Nothing for me, admittedly.

• Has restricted rights that doesn't allow transfer to DVD

I thought we were comparing this to the Xbox 360's offering… which, um, has even more restrictions.

[Brave Ulysses]

You got me with the iTunes for Windows thing....slipped my mind.

But the point remains.... you are taking the typical Apple fan boy stance and not looking at reality.

For 100 dollars more than an iTV I will be able to purchase an XBox 360 that does everything an iTV does.... arguably better... and also have a gaming system.

Apple is really botching this whole movie thing. It clearly was not ready for primetime and the rush to market simply is letting competitors one up them. Apple is being beat at their own game. I have been very impressed with how MS is beginning to leverage Xbox as a home hub.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses But the point remains.... you are taking the typical Apple fan boy stance and not looking at reality.

That's insulting. I don't have the slightest interest in buying an iTV. TV is dead to me. I was also never interested in a video iPod for myself. I'm also generally not too keen on buying TV shows, let alone movies, on iTunes. I can imagine upgrading my mini to a nano either when the mini gets too old or earlier, if they come up with an Nike+iPod-like biking kit.

I don't agree with every of Apple's decisions, but I find the general response to the iTV to be about as dumb as that to the original iPod.

This thing is precisely what many here and elsewhere were asking for for months, only they typically named it the "AirPort Express AV" or similar. Now that Apple has actually announced they are indeed working on something like it (although with a slightly different focus), people are dissatisfied with… what exactly? The lack of DVR? That's not at all what the iTV is. The fact that it's not a game console? The price?

Yeah, I think the price should be lower.

For 100 dollars more than an iTV I will be able to purchase an XBox 360 that does everything an iTV does.... arguably better... and also have a gaming system.

You can't "argue that it's better" because you haven't seen the product at all, and everything you know about it is from a brief few-minute preview presentation with lots of disclaimers and caveats. So no, it's not "arguably better". It's "potentially better" at best.

And judging from the fact that the Xbox is primarily something completely different, I'd say it's "likely worse".

Device convergence always leads to particular functionality sucking. Camera in a cellphone? Yeah, it's convenient, but the quality is horrendous. Photo browsing on an iPod? You can't even zoom. Music playing in a cellphone? Ridiculously bad.

Anything non-gaming in a game console? Probably mediocre at best.

I've never owned a Nintendo product and it's probably been almost a decade since I've used one, but I think they have it right. K-I-S-S.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses But the point remains.... you are taking the typical Apple fan boy stance and not looking at reality.

And you are taking the typical gamerz stance and not looking at reality.

I (and most folks I know) have zero interest in an Xbox 360 gaming system. So, why would I pay more money for a more restrictive system?

Oddly enough, one of the first things my wife asked about when trying out her new MacBook (specifically: Front Row) was about how we could get stuff from it up onto the TV. This was long before the iTV announcement and only hours after unpacking her first ever Mac. Unless she's the only person to react like that, I'd guess that there will still be some interest in Apple's offerings as well.

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses ...I will be able to purchase an XBox 360 that does everything an iTV does.... arguably better...

The Xbox 360 will play stuff purchased from the iTunes store or other files that are on my Mac?

[Brave Ulysses]

Not taking a gamerz stance. Taking a critical look at things.

The Xbox 360 will play stuff purchased from the iTunes store or other files that are on my Mac?

Won't play iTunes purchased stuff because of Apple (and Chucker is arguing Apple's rights management is a benefit..ha) but it will play the other files if its anything like the original Xbox that I have here which i think it is but honestly do not know.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses (and Chucker is arguing Apple's rights management is a benefit..ha)

Very interesting. Any other absurd assertions I haven't made that you wish to pull out of my posts?

Whatever makes you happy, but stop calling me a "fanboy" or claiming I've made statements I haven't.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by chucker • Cannot watch on computer, let alone on five different ones • Cannot watch on portable device, let alone an infinite number of them • Cannot easily transfer ("bring your HD"? yeah right)

All have to do with Apple's rights management being "superior"

[chucker]

All are added privileges to the consumer. They are therefore indeed a superior offering to the customer.

However, it would be even better not to have a DRM to begin with; ergo, no, the rights management is not "a benefit".

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by chucker So, let's see. • About twice as expensive, albeit with higher quality • Cannot watch on computer, let alone on five different ones • Cannot watch on portable device, let alone an infinite number of them • Cannot easily transfer ("bring your HD"? yeah right) And this should have Apple worried? Give me a break.

The price was caught off a screenshot, probably not final. There's a site that claims 240 MS points ($3) for TV shows, which is quite fair. I think $15 for new movie releases that aren't even DVD quality is more unfair. The only thing about the XBox 360 deal that really sucks is that you have a 24 hour window to watch your movie download even though the "rental" lasts up to 2 weeks.

All the "cannot" arguments seem temporary at best. You have to figure in Zune and perhaps some kind of tunnelling ability to your PC is on the horizon.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Eugene All the "cannot" arguments seem temporary at best. You have to figure in Zune and perhaps some kind of tunnelling ability to your PC is on the horizon.

Probably, but even then, only on Windows. At this point, it's looking very unlikely that Microsoft will port their DRM to Mac OS or any other OS.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by Brad And you are taking the typical gamerz stance and not looking at reality.

Reality is 6+ million XBox 360s have been sold since Nov 2005.

I (and most folks I know) have zero interest in an Xbox 360 gaming system. So, why would I pay more money for a more restrictive system?

As I said before, it would be naive to think Microsoft won't expand on the service. So you can either pay $400 for an XBox 360 or $300 for an iTV with mystery specs later. What we do know is the XBox service will be available in 2 weeks and will play true HD content on your HDTV monitor. Nobody even knows if iTV is capable of displaying at HD resolutions at all right now. I quite literally yawned in August at the "It's Showtime" event because Apple has made no promise to bring HD content first to the computer and then through iTV.

Oddly enough, one of the first things my wife asked about when trying out her new MacBook (specifically: Front Row) was about how we could get stuff from it up onto the TV. This was long before the iTV announcement and only hours after unpacking her first ever Mac. Unless she's the only person to react like that, I'd guess that there will still be some interest in Apple's offerings as well.

I've been going on about a media break-out box for years. iTV only scratches the surface of what could be done.

The Xbox 360 will play stuff purchased from the iTunes store or other files that are on my Mac?

Maybe not your Mac, but the 360 will play a wide variety of A/V formats off your networked Windows PC, yep.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Eugene Maybe not your Mac, but the 360 will play a wide variety of A/V formats off your networked Windows PC, yep.

Too bad I don't have a Windows PC at home. I guess I lose.

[chucker]

I don't get how some people can be so short-sighted as to seriously advocate Microsoft's "Marketplace".

Don't their memories even look just a few weeks back in time? When Microsoft killed off MSN Music and the entire oh-so-great PlaysForSure "ecosystem"? Not so "for sure" any more, hm?

Sometimes things are really quite simple, and universally true, and here's one of them: when you partner up with Microsoft, not only do you lose, but so does the customer. Microsoft are the only ones who win.

Marketplace is gonna have a much, much more compelling offering to make up for the fact that it comes from none other than Microsoft.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by Brad Too bad I don't have a Windows PC at home. I guess I lose.

And I really doubt Microsoft gave our 3% worldwide marketshare a second thought.

Originally Posted by chucker I don't get how some people can be so short-sighted as to seriously advocate Microsoft's "Marketplace".

Nobody's advocating it. Millions of XBox 360 owners will have it at their fingertips on the 22nd, and they will blindly use what is available to them. I don't think iTunes as a video download service had that say imprinting effect on people as their music store did.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by chucker Sometimes things are really quite simple, and universally true, and here's one of them: when you partner up with Microsoft, not only do you lose, but so does the customer. Microsoft are the only ones who win.

I really don't feel as if the consumer is winning anything with apple's approach to selling videos. it's crap all around.

[Eugene]

Don't you wish iTunes sold HD versions of content that looked like this?

Spider-Man 3 Trailer

The video has an average data rate of 7.2 mbit/s but it's only 2m30s long. A feature length film would probably average a much lower bitrate. I think most files could be encoded around 6 mbit/s on average. A two-hour long movie would be 4.5 GB.

To placate the movie studios and cover the costs of metered bandwidth, Apple could charge a premium. I'd definitely pay $20 for the average feature and more for a new release.

[chucker]

Well, hopefully they'll continue to gradually bump the resolution. It's not even 480p right now; it's 640 wide, but the height depends on the aspect ratio (e.g., 640x360 for 16:9). So, for 16:9, 480p (roughly 853.3x480), that's actually an area (and therefore image quality) increase of 77.78% already.

720p (1280x720) would be an increase of 304.4%, i.e. over three times more.

(Not to mention 1080p )

[Akumulator]

Originally Posted by chucker • Cannot watch on portable device, let alone an infinite number of them

Can't you record most anything on PMPs such as the Archos and Cowon? I think you could output the 360 to the Archos dvr and record the shows and movies.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Akumulator Can't you record most anything on PMPs such as the Archos and Cowon? I think you could output the 360 to the Archos dvr and record the shows and movies.

Through an analog loophole, perhaps, but as far as I can tell, the Archos and Cowon players would not support the DRM of such movies.

[Akumulator]

DRM, no. That would only be applicable through file transfer, correct? Unless I'm mistaken and the drm is somehow embedded in the analog signal. So if the content is able to be copied with analog, then portable devices are not out of the loop. These PMPs are geared towards recording their content (DVR). That's what takes them a step beyond other portable devices like the iPod and PSP which can only playback transferred media. And there are more and more PMPs coming out on the market.

So portability may not be out of the question.... that's all I'm trying to get at.

[alcimedes]

Bah, all of this crap is worthless unless it can do one thing.

Can it make it easier for me to get *my* content or my desired content to my TV?

Downloading TV shows and movies is around. It's not fully formed or finished by any stretch, but I don't see anything that's a major breakthrough with the 360's offerings. HD is nice, but it's nothing that can't be duplicated by competitors.

People want to know if they can get their vacation slide shows pushed to their TV easily. In a younger crowd they want to know if you can watch all those pirated movies on thier TV now without the tangle of cables and wires normally required to push images from a computer to a TV.

The 360 offerings are great for people who own 360's, and I'm sure that within that market they will be well received, but it's not that big of a market.

Assuming iTV ties in through iTunes (and its ability to play non-DRM'ed video) then *anyone* with a Windows or Mac box can use iTV to push their video to their TV. Knowing Apple it will work seamlessly or close to it.

It's a much larger audience. Sure if you have a 360 you won't be looking at iTV, but most people don't, and for those that don't iTV offers a lot.

[Akumulator]

Originally Posted by alcimedes Assuming iTV ties in through iTunes (and its ability to play non-DRM'ed video) then *anyone* with a Windows or Mac box can use iTV to push their video to their TV. Knowing Apple it will work seamlessly or close to it.

Sorry, but which non-DRM'ed video are you talking about? Not iTunes content, correct? Doesn't iTunes videos have a DRM? I think I just assumed as much since the songs do.