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Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
 
2010-04-15, 20:37

I don't understand why using an iPhone simulator would be graphics intensive (I've never used it, so I have no idea), but it seems almost counter intuitive. One would think any lagness would be related to CPU.

Well, certainly seems like the 13" monster is gonna jump in price again if they're going to commit to discrete graphics. I'm alright with taht, I guess.

...and calling/e-mailing/texting ex-girlfriends on the off-chance they'll invite you over for some "old time's sake" no-strings couch gymnastics...
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scratt
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2010-04-15, 20:43

It's running through an abstraction layer, so submissions are not as efficient as they could be.

So sure it does have an impact on the CPU side, but also for the GPU - quite significantly.

So any inefficiency on either end is magnified.

'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take'
Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt
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PB PM
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2010-04-15, 20:56

So the developer modual must rely on OpenCL a lot then? If that is the case, development withou a dedicated GPU must be a pain! IGPs are slow enough already. I think one of the possible issues is that Apple is limiting the shared memory to 256MB, which is rather low end for development purposes.
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drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2010-04-15, 21:28

I was planning on getting one of these new machines but have been deeply traumatized by this thread! O.o


...
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scratt
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2010-04-15, 21:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
So the developer modual must rely on OpenCL a lot then? If that is the case, development withou a dedicated GPU must be a pain! IGPs are slow enough already. I think one of the possible issues is that Apple is limiting the shared memory to 256MB, which is rather low end for development purposes.
Not trying to be deliberately combative here. Honestly.
But nothing you have said there (apart from IGPs being slow) is correct, or makes any sense. Sorry.

The Simulator has full access to all the host machine's hardware and RAM, and VRAM.

The "abstraction layer" I am referring to is in simple terms an Open GL ES "stencil" which makes the OpenGL context behave as it would on a mobile GPU.

'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take'
Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt
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scratt
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2010-04-15, 21:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
I was planning on getting one of these new machines but have been deeply traumatized by this thread! O.o


...
Sorry dude.

But don't buy one.. It's a trap!
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PB PM
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2010-04-15, 22:09

How is what I'm saying wrong, you have given NO evidence to counter what I say other than "your wrong." Which tells me you have no idea what you are talking about. VRAM is a limiting factor, if you knew anything about how GPUs work you would know that Scratt.

I'm on my touch so it's really hard to respond properly.
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scratt
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2010-04-15, 22:13

Dude, I am simply imparting the same information to you that Apple gives out to Developers.

As for your comment on VRAM. Well... Even on the IGPs the available VRAM is comparable to the entire RAM on any iDevice. So it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever.

You seem to be talking out of your hat, not from your Touch.

'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take'
Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt
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PB PM
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2010-04-15, 22:17

I've read enough articals over at anantech about GPU techology to have a vauge idea of what I'm saying. Apple tells you what it wants you to believe.
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scratt
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2010-04-15, 22:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
I've read enough articals over at anantech about GPU techology to have a vauge idea of what I'm saying. Apple tells you what it wants you to believe.
"vauge" sums it up.

I've been involved in graphics hardware / software and driver development on and off since the 80's.

Back in the day I wrote software implementations of graphics drivers on 8 bit machines that we see the influence of in modern graphics hardware today. Particularly high speed filling methodology. I am not saying I did that for these companies. Rather that we were developing methods similar to those in use today before they were even being applied to hardware - but in software implementations, out of necessity.

I also helped Sega with their first High Performance 3D graphics pipelines on their arcade hardware. I was one of the first westerners to even see the hardware, and actually had to translate the docs from Japanese into English for my team.

Most recently I've been advising, and assisting in debugging, Gremedy's tools for OpenCL, OpenGL and OpenGL ES debugging for OS X and iPhone OS. Those tools include live on device debugging at run-time for iPhones, iPods and so forth.

Your move...

'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take'
Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt

Last edited by scratt : 2010-04-15 at 23:03.
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PB PM
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2010-04-15, 22:54

Yes you know some thing abou how Apple uses the thecnlogy in Mac OS, which overall is not known to provide great GPU performance. There is more going on than what you see as a platfrorm based developer.
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scratt
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2010-04-15, 22:57

I'll leave it there dude. You are making a fool of yourself now.
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PB PM
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2010-04-15, 23:06

Not really. It's been fun though.
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PB PM
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2010-04-16, 04:47

Anandtechs review of the new 15" MBP. Seem like a nice upgrade for those who are getting them.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3659/a...the-one-to-get
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chucker
 
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2010-04-16, 05:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Anandtechs review of the new 15" MBP. Seem like a nice upgrade for those who are getting them.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3659/a...the-one-to-get
Yeah, I read it. Heat is mentioned… wonder how it compares to my Rev A MBP.
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MBHockey
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2010-04-16, 07:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Yeah, I read it. Heat is mentioned… wonder how it compares to my Rev A MBP.
Yeah, it's one of my top concerns. How hot do these babies get?

I'm going to go to the Apple store today and compare a few of them to each other by installing the iStat Pro widget to check temps. Then I'll come back later and see how warm they are from people using them all day.

The Apple store is on my way to work so it's not hard for me to stop off there. Hopefully they don't uninstall the widget mid day!
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Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
 
2010-04-16, 07:30

This is relevant to my interests since I also have a 15" rev. A. And I really wouldn't want anything hotter than my current MBP. So best of luck with the intel gathering.

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Maciej
M AH - ch ain saw
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2010-04-16, 08:19

My order is prepped to ship!

Regretfully, I'm getting an Intel IGP.

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scratt
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2010-04-16, 09:53

Never fear. The "real" GPU in those beasties is quite nice.

Congrats on your purchase.
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MBHockey
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Join Date: May 2005
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2010-04-16, 15:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
This is relevant to my interests since I also have a 15" rev. A. And I really wouldn't want anything hotter than my current MBP. So best of luck with the intel gathering.

Just got back. I had iStat set up on two machines - a 15" hi-res antiglare with the 2.66 GHz Core i7 and a 15" regular screen with the 2.53 GHz Core i5. Upon my return to the store I found only the Core i7 machine still had iStat running in Dashboard, so i reinstalled it on the other one.

So here's what I did. Once I got iStat reinstalled i just felt the bottoms of the computers. They were warm, especially towards the back middle of the unit. I wouldn't say it was uncomfortable and I'd feel fine using it on my lap for a little while unless it started getting warmer.

Then i went over to the i7 machine and played a 10 minute video on youtube where activity monitor showed around 40% for the flash plug-in and 11% for safari during the playback. While it played i was reading the news in Safari. After the video was done I loaded up the 720p trailer for Iron Man off Apple's site and watched that, which was about 3 and half minutes, and it played in Quicktime.

Here's the before and after temps:

Before:
CPU 115
Enclosure Base 1: 86
Enclosure Base 2: 86
Enclosure Base 3: 81

After:
CPU 125
Enclosure Base 1: 90
Enclosure Base 2: 90
Enclosure Base 3: 83

The fans never went above the "resting" 2000 RPM during this simulation of light usage.

I did the same thing on the Core i5 machine, and although I didn't get the before temps the after temps are here:

CPU: 130
Enclosure Base 1: 86
Enclosure Base 2: 86
Enclosure Base 3: 83

All temps are in Fahrenheit as reported by iStat Pro in Dashboard.

They did not have a Core i5 @ 2.4 GHz on display.

So there's a difference of 4 degrees for the bottom enclosure in this (admittedly unscientific) test which seems insignificant (although 90 degrees on the bottom enclosure sure sounds hot, but we have to remember the temp sensors are on the inside). My hand couldn't tell a difference in temp...they both felt the same to my touch afterwards. Also, the top casing was definitely "cool" after the tests which is good. I got the impression it would take a lot to heat up the places where your palms rest to an unacceptable level.

The hi-res antiglare screen is gorgeous, by the way. During the Iron Man 2 trailer I noticed that the actors' skin tones looked much more natural than on the glossy display (I'm not expert at this stuff though.) The Apple store is probably the WORST place to show off a glossy display since they have these giant overhead lights every two feet. Also, there doesn't seem to be any kind of "grainy" coating on the matte display. A few years ago I had to return a brand new MBP because I couldn't take the rainbow/dithering effects created by their anti-glare coating and was worried that the new screens would also have them. But much to my delight, it looked great. Text was definitely not too small to be readable on the 1680x1050 display, which was another concern of mine. Just a lot of extra real estate.
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Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
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2010-04-16, 15:38

Thanks, MBHockey!



Sounds like they are no worse than the rev. A.

On another note, I think mine has become more noisy over time due to old age. Do you guys think that this will apply to these new ones also?
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MBHockey
skates=grafs
 
Join Date: May 2005
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2010-04-16, 16:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
Thanks, MBHockey!



Sounds like they are no worse than the rev. A.

On another note, I think mine has become more noisy over time due to old age. Do you guys think that this will apply to these new ones also?
Maybe your fan is just dirty? I pried open my parents Core Solo Mac Mini the other day to clean out the fan since it was making noise. It's now quiet again.
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MBHockey
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Join Date: May 2005
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2010-04-16, 17:52

What about the vram on the GPU guys and gals -- is 512MB on the 330 overkill for iMovie/Final cut and Starcraft 2?

With the edu pricing, the difference between the base 15" and the top end 15" is $325.12

Decisions, decisions.
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atoms
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Join Date: May 2007
 
2010-04-16, 20:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBHockey View Post
What about the vram on the GPU guys and gals -- is 512MB on the 330 overkill for iMovie/Final cut and Starcraft 2?

With the edu pricing, the difference between the base 15" and the top end 15" is $325.12

Decisions, decisions.
just my $0.02:

ALWAYS go for the highest model you can afford. You'll be happy about it in the long run.
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Maciej
M AH - ch ain saw
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2010-04-16, 20:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoms View Post
just my $0.02:

ALWAYS go for the highest model you can afford. You'll be happy about it in the long run.
Your advice hurt my wallet big time.
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MBHockey
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Join Date: May 2005
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2010-04-16, 20:56

Interesting. I'm at the bar right now. I'm afraid a few more Newcastles and I might sneak off to order the fully loaded one right from my iPhone.

Can't say it'd be the worst thing I'd come home from the bar with
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Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
 
2010-04-17, 02:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBHockey View Post
Maybe your fan is just dirty? I pried open my parents Core Solo Mac Mini the other day to clean out the fan since it was making noise. It's now quiet again.
Already tried that to no avail. I think the bearings are simply a bit worn out.
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scratt
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2010-04-17, 05:53

Just thought I'd post this here as reference about Intel's IGPs.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2901/4

It's from PB PM's favourite source of info. Surprised he didn't quote from it. But when you get into the details you can also see why perhaps...

I've quoted relevant portions for those that don't want to read the whole thing...

Quote:
With Clarkdale Intel has finally dropped the Graphics Media Accelerator (GMA) prefix. Intel integrated graphics is now just called Intel HD Graphics.
Quote:
...but ultimately it’s the same architecture as the G45
So these things are just GMA950 style devices. Remember those sucky things?

Quote:
Intel HD Graphics bumps [shader cores] up to 12. Apparently there are a number of internal tweaks and performance enhancements that should result in more than a 20% increase in performance though.
*pfft* So it's approaching the 9400M in terms of cores. But it's still about 20% down in numbers. Remember that the 9400M is the low power GPU that was in the late to be updated last gen. MacBook Pros.

Quote:
All integrated GPUs regardless of vendor, pretty much suck. Intel gets a bum rap because while other IGPs may offer 30+ fps in games at the lowest quality settings, Intel can often only manage single digit frame rates. It doesn’t take too much searching to prove that one.
Quote:
Clarkdale does change that a bit. Intel has finally delivered an integrated graphics solution that is at least competitive with existing IGPs on the market. To show you how far it’s come I’ve pitted our Clarkdale based Core i5 661 against an AMD Phenom II X4 965 with 790GX graphics. Our 790GX platform had 128MB of on-board memory to drive performance even higher. If Intel can manage a win here, it'll be a convincing one.
Quote:
I’ve also tossed in a G45 board for good measure. The only absent member is NVIDIA's GeForce 9400. We found in our 790GX review that AMD delivered roughly the same graphics performance (if not better) as the 9400 so any advantage/disadvantage here would apply to NVIDIA as well.
If you read the review, the Intel IGP does show quite well in some tests. i.e. It matches its immediate rivals. Even beats them sometimes. Later on it doesn't do so well at all.

But...

Quote:
Keep in mind that we’re looking at the highest end IGP from Intel. The Core i3s will be appreciably slower, most likely at or below the performance of the 790GX.
Another reason why Steve didn't want i3s in the 13".

Now let's put this in context...

This is a current Intel IGP on their latest silicon going against another IGP that performs at "roughly the same graphics performance (if not better) [than] the 9400".

That's the last gen offering from Nvidia.

It's also worth reading this for some background on how Intel cheat to get some of their performance results. In effect they steal horsepower from your CPU.

http://www.techpowerup.com/105967/In...Vant age.html

Overall, not that impressive.

In simple terms the current Intel IGP in the new MacBook Pros is the same as the 9400M in the last gen. MacBooks in most cases.

Intel have certainly moved forward. But not in an honest, or particularly impressive way. Their new IGP is twice the speed of their own awful GMA950. But twice the speed of a dog awful IGP is not much to write home about IMO.

Oh and for WoW fans... hoping to play on the move using battery power...

Quote:
World of Warcraft is a very important title to perform well under and unfortunately Intel loses this one to AMD.
But perhaps that is just down to crappy software, eh PB PM?

'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take'
Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt

Last edited by scratt : 2010-04-17 at 06:03.
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MBHockey
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2010-04-17, 09:34

Bit the bullet this morning.

I figured that the extra money over the life of the computer would be worth it, especially after reading the anandtech review. No way I'm going to be replacing a $2,000+ laptop during medical school with loan money, so I got the best I could get now while I'm working odd jobs and actually have the money in my hands.

I got the Core i7 15" model with hi-res antiglare display. I've got a couple weeks until it arrives though. I'll be doing my Please God No Dead Pixels dance in the mean time.
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Maciej
M AH - ch ain saw
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2010-04-17, 09:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBHockey View Post
I got the Core i7 15" model with hi-res antiglare display. I've got a couple weeks until it arrives though. I'll be doing my Please God No Dead Pixels dance in the mean time.
Now that you've said something you've probably jinxed us! Luckily I haven't had much problem with dead pixels in the past, from Apple at least. What is Apple's dead pixel policy?

User formally known as Sh0eWax
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